I was intrigued to read this because Bowling Alone barely mentions immigration and largely does so in reference to the late 19th century experience in the US. The index sections on neighbours, education, and religion are much longer. Perhaps Labour insiders are reading a different Bowling Alone? - ThreadSky

benansell.bsky.social • 17 days ago

I was intrigued to read this because Bowling Alone barely mentions immigration and largely does so in reference to the late 19th century experience in the US. The index sections on neighbours, education, and religion are much longer. Perhaps Labour insiders are reading a different Bowling Alone?

Comments

georgeeaton.bsky.social•17 days ago

Putnam wrote on how “successful immigrant societies have overcome fragmentation by creating new, cross-cutting forms of social solidarity and more encompassing identities” (which is what Starmer is arguing for).

se13ed.bsky.social•17 days ago

probably would have been better if he'd actually said that, then

se13ed.bsky.social•17 days ago

(and even given that - I take issue with using Putnam as a frame for this issue simply because a book about social capital in the USA in the 1990s is going to lack salience for the UK in the 2020s)

benansell.bsky.social•17 days ago

Agreed - just not in Bowling Alone. It's from E Pluribus Unum. Important to get this kind of stuff right IMO

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x

georgeeaton.bsky.social•17 days ago

Fair, I referenced Bowling Alone because of the obvious echo of “strangers” and because it’s relevant to No 10’s wider arguments about social cohesion.

benansell.bsky.social•17 days ago

It is indeed relevant but this is the point - social cohesion can be spoken about entirely without mentioning immigration - as most of Bowling Alone does. My concern is that Labour insiders are mistaking their immigration policy for a full-fledged social capital policy.

theangelofhistory.bsky.social•17 days ago

Yeah, the UK doesn’t really have social cohesion problems, its problems on this front (to extent they exist) aren’t caused by immigration & the Bowling Alone theory was about commute times, suburbanisation & television displacing face to face hobbies.

We’re not idiots @georgeeaton.bsky.social

crd37.bsky.social•17 days ago

Putnam talked about this point on immigration back in 2011 - Michael White wrote about it here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2011/may/31/big-society-raises-questions-immigration

Putnam was very clear about the ‘new us’ point which no-one political is going to go anywhere near

sundersays.bsky.social•17 days ago

Shouldn't he have mentioned something about this, if he wanted to argue this when he was saying it?

Prima facie reading is just: pace of change makes this harder & reduce numbers. The integration policy measures are thin, a bit of English + doubling time to settlement for many

robdysonpr.uk•17 days ago

I think people are hurriedly retconning this. The UK public is way more familiar with Powell than Putnam. The optics are awful, and as you say - without an appreciation of the niche Putnam text (I'm actually familiar with it, but my background is in sociology), our collective memory hears Enoch.

radiobeartime.com•17 days ago

Yes, it didn’t ring any bells with me either so thank you for doing the research :)

simonparker.bsky.social•17 days ago

I know you know, but Putnam's later work does at least somewhat support Starmer's position: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x

benansell.bsky.social•17 days ago

Yep - Our Kids too. Labour have been talking about Bowling Alone as some kind of ur-document at least since I worked in government in 2004-6 - largely to justify whatever policy they come up with at any given point AFAICT

aremay.bsky.social•17 days ago

I am reminded in some ways of the "citizens of nowhere" line from May; wasn't intended to be a major focus, became an insult, and went on to live a long life in liberal political circles. Same here; careless language has created a problem.

annekin1.bsky.social•17 days ago

Absolutely this. Social media edits, magnifies & ultimately distorts quotes. This is why it's so important to be mindful of what you say. Starmer knows this as he's a lawyer. This is what makes it such a disappointment.

grahamwalkernrg.bsky.social•17 days ago

And if it is about Bowling Alone, why is the policy prescription for that "less immigration" rather than government investment in "social glue" activities?

benansell.bsky.social•17 days ago

Or if you follow Putnam, they should be demanding lots of 19th century Swedes and Norwegians ;)

theangelofhistory.bsky.social•17 days ago

Sunday League Football Alone

Glum looking late middle aged and old Arsenal supporters, dressed up in classic strip, smacking the ball into the back of the net, Bergkamp style, alone

abbyinnes.bsky.social•17 days ago

If they really wanted to learn from the experience of Barking and Dagenham then they should read this…which is what turned it around, not the far-right pandering…:
https://demos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Only-we-can-save-the-state_CN_Paper.pdf

annekin1.bsky.social•17 days ago

And if this is where the reference was taken from; why not admit it?

greenmirandahere.bsky.social•17 days ago

Wld absolutely welcome a Starmer initiative on the substance of Bowling Alone - see columns passim by Andy Haldane @stephenkb.bsky.social even myself - and as it happens I wld say the number one factor re fraying social bonds is impunity for street crime and police losing trust - let's address that

benansell.bsky.social•17 days ago

Could have got half the bang for the buck of his immigration speech by promising to ban people using speakerphone for calls on the train.

robertsaunders.bsky.social•17 days ago

And if Labour wants to talk about pressure on public services, because of people who feel no social obligations to the wider community, this story might be a decent starting point.
https://www.ft.com/content/1f6d1583-a931-4eb5-be04-b46c32f70db9

greenmirandahere.bsky.social•17 days ago

totes

callymeg.bsky.social•17 days ago

Thames water boss
He also said: “We have a bonus scheme to protect our most precious resource, which is the senior management team.”

robblackie.bsky.social•17 days ago

Jane Jacobs would also say that people being priced out, and therefore creating communities that are homogenous by age & wealth but lose long term residents, would be a problem too.

It's quite subtle (one person at a time) but a real problem in a lot of London...

greenmirandahere.bsky.social•17 days ago

also by choice though Rob - cf school applications system and clustering of homogenous groups - if you really want to tackle the integration issue it's a huge, multi faceted one that has to be done properly and sensitively

robblackie.bsky.social•17 days ago

True!

mrscottpayne.bsky.social•17 days ago

I am reasonably well read, and I don't care what inspired the words "island of strangers." i know what it sounds like: an island of strange, of different. The electorate doesn't care if it owes its literary chops to Puttman or Blyton or even Goebbles. They know what it sounds like.

realcaptainhaddock.bsky.social•17 days ago

Well this is a bit awkward, isn’t it

rogermccarthy.bsky.social•17 days ago

At least a couple of decades since I read it but IIRC a key weakness was precisely it's failure to recognise that a significant factor in the retreat from community and sociability was that post-segregation racist whites had less and less interest in any activity where non-whites might be present.

rogermccarthy.bsky.social•17 days ago

Based on their record I now doubt most of them are capable of reading, let alone understanding anything longer than a focus group summary or a gutter press editorial.

alherix.bsky.social•16 days ago

I was involved in Cambridge MA based Organisational Learning community (spanning both Harvard and MIT academics plus various companies, government orgs and professionals, Bob Putnam work was influential. Its impact was regarding ways to build social capital and increase level of trust in community

theangelofhistory.bsky.social•17 days ago

Could it be they’re just briefing whatever cr*p has popped into their head ?

theangelofhistory.bsky.social•17 days ago

Also, the situation on bowling, whether alone or in teams, is absolutely dire in the UK: Starmer will need to take drastic action
But I don’t see how he’s going to get all the bowling alleys we need built without immigrant construction workers & we’ll likely need to issue visas to American coaches

criminologist.bsky.social•17 days ago

World class cope

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