I am not disposed to the argument that Brexit is excusable because people were lied to, fundamentally because: - it played to horrible prejudices - the electorate had multiple chances to correct this but failed. 12 - ThreadSky

nialloconghaile.bsky.social • 52 days ago

I am not disposed to the argument that Brexit is excusable because people were lied to, fundamentally because:
- it played to horrible prejudices
- the electorate had multiple chances to correct this but failed.

12

Comments

markpurch.bsky.social•52 days ago

I’m still trying to work out what the 1919 Chicago White Sox have to do with this?

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

Lying liars.

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

Call it a curveball.

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

The starting point then is to accept that there is no legal or moral argument that will undo Brexit.

It's done. Despite the lies.

The clock won't be turned back, nor should it be.

13

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

So look forward to a better future.

Perhaps joining, perhaps SM, but respecting Europe's rights and sovereignty. No more #hackingEurope, no more #ExtrawurstGroßbritannien

Bon app.

Ends

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

PS feel free to share this thread, if you liked it. Sharing is the only way to get traction of Bluesky

https://bsky.app/profile/nialloconghaile.bsky.social/post/3lfezf3s2qc2r

msbluewednesday.bsky.social•52 days ago

‘What kind of people’?
People who wanted to believe it, of course.

Then, just to put the frighteners on people, send them targeted Facebook ads to tip them over the edge.

Sadly we can’t fix stupid & stubborn.
“The EU wants to kill our cuppa” anyone? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44966969

ali-jr.bsky.social•52 days ago

There’s no excusing Brexit, but the rest of Europe needs to realize their Brexit moment could be here in a heartbeat if the right conditions arise, take NL, if wasn’t for PR voting system, wilders would be PM with 100% power, and we’d all be judging them like we do UK.

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

Sure. But the UK electorate was aware of the system, indeed consciously chose it. Remainers needed a super majority to prevent Brexit.

As it was, they were beaten in seven national votes consecutively, under three systems.

ali-jr.bsky.social•52 days ago

I think you would struggle to find people in the UK electorate that were aware that they voted 7 times intentionally either for /against Brexit, obviously the referendum was clear, 2019 fair enough, not sure the other 5 occasions

jmolofsson.bsky.social•52 days ago

Yeah!
The rest of Europe needs to realize that.

Thing is that I see most of the rest of Europe being very much aware. We've had Farage-like figures in Austria since the 1990s, we've seen Berlusconi in Italy, LePen in France, Glistrup in Denmark and Orbán in Hungary.

Just the British didn't.

vadkakukk.bsky.social•51 days ago

I think this is an important point.

There was a lot of misinformation around and people voted to leave for a whole lot of different stupid reasons. Some as a protest against the government. Some didn't pay any attention to the real arguments and had no idea what the EU was until afterwards.

vadkakukk.bsky.social•51 days ago

But, *all* people can be manipulated in one way or another.

After something like this you mentally divide the country into the smart ones and the dumb ones.

kathylove.bsky.social•52 days ago

Indeed, PR is far more representative than FPTP, and one benefit of that is that parties with more extreme views tend to be contained by the (usually large) majorities who did not vote for them.

kresten2.bsky.social•48 days ago

In the Netherlands 23% of the vote doesn’t give you absolute power, it doesn’t necessarily give you any power at all.

That is because NL is a democracy.

Also as far as I know, Wilders doesn’t even want to leave the EU.

So no Brexit moment, not even close.

ali-jr.bsky.social•48 days ago

Yeah of course, because NL has PR voting system, that’s entirely my point, if they had first passed post 23% wouldn’t be so far off forming a government with 100% power, starmer in UK has huge majority on 30% of vote from just 20% of electorate.

the-nah-whal.bsky.social•30 days ago

Still the best summary of the sheer entitlement of Brits. https://youtu.be/qg94XHbXrHM

ediparolev.bsky.social•50 days ago

I reckon one of the main reasons for Brexit was that most of the establishment, along with their media, expected Remain to win

And because we were repeatedly told that Remain would win, many people didn’t take the referendum seriously or get involved in the campaign - I include myself in that group

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•50 days ago

Sure. But votes have consequences, and the fact people trreated Europe as a joke is hard to forgive.

francoisgmr.bsky.social•50 days ago

So true. I was living abroad at the time, but happened to be in London on 23.06.16, leaving on the 24th. In the run up, watching BBC Breakfast etc, you’d have thought it was all a big joke. The cabbie who took me to Heathrow couldn’t stop saying he’d voted Leave “for a laugh”. I was besides myself.

jmolofsson.bsky.social•50 days ago

I can't fathom how that (consultative!) referendum still take up all mental energy, instead of how Tories and Labour executed the process in Parliament.

gillo.bsky.social•46 days ago

Let's face it, even the Brexiters thought they'd lose - the faces of Gove and Johnson the day after showed that.

NO BLOODY PLAN AT ALL.

Even the worst Leave voters had a right to expect they had some sort of a plan.

nmwilkinson.bsky.social•46 days ago

Nah they don't it was super obvious

notjobloggs.bsky.social•45 days ago

So what was in May’s mind when she said in her first speech after being made leader “Brexit means Brexit”? Rhetorical question.

kresten2.bsky.social•50 days ago

Actions (lack of action) have consequences. Also to the UK.

dpaxorales.bsky.social•50 days ago

so true: enough people did not believe 'leave' could win, or that if it did, trusted that the all-powerful establishment they despise would not allow it to happen; others thought - rather dimwittedly - they had been given an opportunity to vote cameron out.

brainburnnow.bsky.social•50 days ago

Huh? You say they "rather dimwittedly" thought voting leave would get rid of Cameron?

Yet, they were 100% correct - Cameron quit pretty much the second that the result dropped, didn't he?

Still cutting your nose off to spite your face, but they did achieve their stated goal.

ali-jr.bsky.social•52 days ago

100% with you on the closing sentiments

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

Thanks Ali! I'm with you guys too.

geoffschrecker.bsky.social•52 days ago

As you point out, those who voted for Brexit have no excuse, they were clearly told that they were being lied to by millions of us. I feel particularly angry as I spent hours explaining the complications that would be caused for Ireland.

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

There is no excuse. Time for us all to accept that Brexit has happened, it's finished, and you owe the referendum nothing.

tamarainportugal.bsky.social•52 days ago

There is/was no excuse - but those who have subsequently woken up to the truth need to be embraced by pro-Europeans and not still vilified for their former naivety/stupidity.

jmolofsson.bsky.social•52 days ago

They shouldn't be vilified.
Unless they blame Someone Else. Like me, for instance!

tamarainportugal.bsky.social•52 days ago

Humility is going to be a vital key to the UK turning a corner (eventually) and repentant/regretful Leavers will possess this.

tamarainportugal.bsky.social•52 days ago

Still vilifying regretful Leavers keeps the narrative cemented in 2016 where Brexiters want to keep it. Empowerment comes from the humility of changed minds.

danzern.bsky.social•49 days ago

It is time to envision a better path that can lead you towards a remarkable future. Enjoy:
https://www.wattpad.com/1509765434-a-step-beyond-the-road-you-carry-on%0D

spikeyscabiosa.bsky.social•30 days ago

Trouble is Niall, it feels like this sort of argument lumps all the UK electorate into one homogeneous blob deserving of ‘collective punishment’. Over 1/3 of electorate didn’t vote, of the rest the majority was slim. People like me who saw the lies keep being ignored by politicians of all stripes 😡

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•30 days ago

We have no way to have a different relationship with different parts of the electorate. That's just a fact.

I am sorry about this outcome, but change has to come from the UK. (and it will)

spikeyscabiosa.bsky.social•29 days ago

Well, I hope you’re right and that comes before I’m dead. But it still pisses me off mightily that Starmer’s government, like Tories are currently intent on totally ignoring folk like me. I’m doubtful I’ll vote Labour again - they just seem too Conservative, at least in their comms.

kresten2.bsky.social•29 days ago

Labour, at least its leadership, is a hard Brexit party.

They are not a part of the solution but a part of the problem.

kresten2.bsky.social•29 days ago

The EU deals with 3rd country governments not individual citizens.

There is no punishment.

Brexit was and still is a 100% UK problem. The solution starts in the UK although the EU and its MSs will of course be the final arbiter.

spikeyscabiosa.bsky.social•29 days ago

I wasn’t accusing the EU. I was saying it felt like some commentators use some arguments to make the whole UK electorate ‘blameworthy’ for Brexit. That’s what feels like ‘collective punishment’. Many more people DIDN’T vote for it than did. That majority has been and still is being totally ignored.

neil0659.bsky.social•52 days ago

The sooner we accept all of what you say above, the sooner we can Rejoin.

Arguing with the rules will always be counter-productive. Especially when the country is shrinking economically.

But, no doubt, many will.
[Sighs heavily]

the-nah-whal.bsky.social•52 days ago

They won, get over it!

amdismal.bsky.social•52 days ago

I generally agree with the view that, since we voted in Brexiters (repeatedly), then it's our fault as the electorate. However, in our system there are two parties that can win, and neither was offering an alternative to Brexit.

But yeah, the failing of the Lib Dems to make ground has to be telling

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

Break the system or break the parties.

Look, it's something that the UK had to go through. It's done.

Let's get the UK back on the road to Europe. But by the straight roads.

trevor-greetham.bsky.social•52 days ago

The Lib Dems made huge ground in terms of seats. Their low showing reflects the first past the post system, as you yourself point out.

amdismal.bsky.social•52 days ago

Only in 2024, when Brexit was a done deal. In 2017 and 2019 there was no surge to them, in vote share or seats:
2010 23.0% 57
2015 7.9% 8
2017 7.4% 12
2019 11.6% 11
2024 12.2% 72

Europe was a big deal 2015-2019, and that's when they did terribly

trevor-greetham.bsky.social•52 days ago

If you were there you’ll remember those elections were protest votes, anti-May then anti-Corbyn. No way you’d waste your vote on a third placed party.

ledredman.bsky.social•31 days ago

There is evidence ( I have seen it) that some people genuinely voted to Leave to give the NHS more money. It's clear however that the lies were mainly a way for closet racists and xenophobes to quote less embarrassing motives for their vote.

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•31 days ago

Agreed

ruthwatson.bsky.social•52 days ago

Of course, Scotland did not buy into the Brexit lies, voting decisively to Remain in the EU. Despite that, there was no attempt at a 'Windsor Agreement' for Scotland’s people.

https://natcen.ac.uk/publications/how-brexit-has-changed-scotlands-constitutional-debate

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

It's hard. Scotland doesn't have a sponsor in the Council.

But it was very unfairly treated following Indy1

ruthwatson.bsky.social•52 days ago

The great majority of Scotland's people are horrified by Brexit and disgusted by the awful pressure it has put on the new Scots from Europe who have made Scotland their home.

The Scottish Government has done much to try and support EU nationals in very trying times.

https://www.gov.scot/news/supporting-eu-citizens-to-stay-in-scotland/

ruthwatson.bsky.social•52 days ago

The last of Scotland's MEPs still have honorary membership and have support from the grouping of small nations and independent MEPs, who work to ensure Scotland's voice still is heard in the EU.

Of course, we have a journey ahead of us, but we are working on it.

@euromovescotland.bsky.social

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

It is also a perfect example of how Scotland's needs differ from England and were not taken into account. I ate with a couple of Scottish visitors recently, and they emphasised how much Scotland is crying out for immigrants in all sectors.

brainburnnow.bsky.social•52 days ago

Scotland was snookered, and perhaps even extorted, by Cameron and the unionists in the indyref, but it remains that Scotland voted not to become independent. To remain in the UK, with all that this entails. It's all in the past now.

Better to look forward to the future, which still can be changed.

brainburnnow.bsky.social•52 days ago

Be that indyref2 for Scotland, or joining the EU again for the UK. Those are still possibilities.

Or, in the case of indyref2, at least should be possibilities. I'm not a fan of WM denying Scotland the right to secede, if that's what the Scottish public want.

brainburnnow.bsky.social•52 days ago

I'm sorry, but that's just Scottish exceptionalism. No, really!

As long as Scotland remains part of the union, it's part of the union, and will be treated, by the rest of the world, little different from a region or province of a nation.

No grounds for Scotland treated differently, unlike w/ NI.

esemptius.bsky.social•52 days ago

What's the procedure for Scotland exercising its democratic right to leave the "voluntary" England-dominated "union"? Oh. There isn't one is there.

brainburnnow.bsky.social•52 days ago

One of the many reasons why this nation is in desperate need of an actual constitution, all wroted(!) down and everything.

The way the union is handled in law is a disgrace, more generally. It makes it rather clear that it's actually "England and her closest colonies", lightly papered over.

europaendlos.bsky.social•52 days ago

I think a fair few fell for the idea that EU membership was just a technicality and everything would pretty much carry on the same if the UK left. Particularly as the media (including the BBC) talked in terms of deal or no deal. Misinformation and complacency all round.

nialloconghaile.bsky.social•52 days ago

That's a fair point.

In what world did they think everything would change for foreigners, and nothing would change for them?

jmolofsson.bsky.social•52 days ago

Many MPs seem to have fallen for that idea – or for something of the same caliber.

And the voters voted for them.
Dissonant MPs were rarely re-elected.

europaendlos.bsky.social•52 days ago

Notable amongst the 🤡 peddling this nonsense was Stephen Kinnock who claimed the UK could join a Common Market 2.0 and immediately renegotiate freedom of movement under Article 113, perhaps based on regional or industry quotas. https://labourlist.org/2019/03/common-market-2-0-is-the-fastest-route-to-brexit-stephen-kinnocks-speech/

vanders.bsky.social•52 days ago

"We give them all this money and get nothing in return!"

Oh, do you not? Okay then. Guess you got nothing to complain about now.

europaendlos.bsky.social•52 days ago

This is the kind of nonsense the BBC were putting out 👇. You will lose freedom of movement but only in the event of ‘no deal’ 🤦‍♂️🤡 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47470864

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