I think my previous comment came when you'd barely started the thread, and now you've concluded it, thank you. That was a real labour of love there. It's such a difficult question. Neither side is wrong. Both sides are right. It's one of those difficult issues where two moral arguments are in...
... direct contention. But I am hesitant about one of those arguments. People ending their lives early so as not to be a burden. I am getting to the age when I can imagine myself in that position. Would it be SO terrible if, with mere dregs of life left to me and nothing good left to be done...
... that were to be one of my motivators? Perhaps even THE motivator? Particularly if the sense I was indeed a burden only made my remaining time all the more miserable? Looking at any one else feeling that way I'm sure I would find it horrifying, but looking at it subjectively... is it?
Finally, there are times when Parliament should make us proud. I've seen a few such debates in the past, and this sounds like another. My hat is off to MPs across the house for their dedication and professionalism on this occasion. Bar one, of course.
Can anyone explain the maths here? I keep seeing it. 'MPs voted by 330-275 — a majority of 55 — in favour of the assisted dying bill at second reading today.' Is there some abstruse aspect to parliamentary voting I'm not aware of?
Well of COURSE if you're going to explain it MATHEMATICALLY, then it's OBVIOUS. [Damn it, okay, I confess, I was subtracting 330 from 375, or 230 from 275, not sure which, and now I am going to hide under my bed and not come out for a year 😞]
I think it a good thing on the whole that an absolute majority of the House (330/650 - in reality 330/639) voted to give the Bill a second reading - it gives greater democratic legitimacy to continuation of the debate. And opportunity now to test the arguments of the opponents as well as supporters.
Danny Kruger still spreading misinformation. He said it’s not right that doctors will be asked to kill patients. That won’t happen - the patient has to administer- I think he’s got this so wrong? I wonder why?
Thank you Ian, very much appreciated. Really felt the mood. Irrespective of outcome, glad to know MPs behaved like grown-ups; something else good to cling to in hard times (apart from the Origin Story of the BBC).
The Lords only suggest amendments, which the Commons can choose to include, or not.
There then needs to be an agreement between the two Houses, or it will pass automatically if delayed too long by the Lords, who can only delay bills by up to a year.
Good news.
I'm not saying the bill as it stands is perfect, but it can be tidied up in the next stage of proceedings. The important thing is that it *does* continue.
There are no cheers. No noise. Silence. I've never seen a victory like it before in my life. This sense of growing recognition and moral responsibility.
Thank you for your coverage Ian. I’ve been hoping for this for many years. Much work ahead but so pleased at the result. Big Origin Story fan! And ferrets of course
Thanks Ian.
So good to see Parliament able to do what it’s there for, rather than being bypassed as we’ve become accustomed to in recent years. Am also relieved the religious dogma-based arguments didn’t prevail (so far, at least). By the way, worked a treat on this app.
Somewhere back in the thread I said take some time to decompress dude because I have conversations with employees who have experienced so many harrowing moments and memories like this daily and I've realised with me it hits harder after the event upon reflection so give yourself that break.
Thank you Ian, for watching and summarising this debate.
It has cleary been very moving for all involved.
Excellent summary of a very difficult debate.
I would like to see dementia included in discussions going forward. Advanced dementia can be a living hell.
This capacitated one is hard enough to come up with these good safeguards. Advanced dementia? That's turning the health professionals charged with the MCA turning into an actual executioner. Better off targeting non-palliative but extremely debilitating situations like Tony Nicklinson
I would like to see dementia included in the debate.
People with dementia know what their fate is, they know there is no cure. They fear the advanced stage.
My point, and I do have one, is that it is terminal, and while they have capacity, ways could be considered to make provision.
This has proven a difficult topic. In Belgium, euthanasia was legalized in 2002. It’s still not legal for dementia.
In The Netherlands, it is possible by an advance directive (when still decisionally competent)
However, patients have a right to say no. But in advanced dementia, ppl can’t anymore.
Thank you for that.
It seems even more cruel that with some illnesses, if you were to choose the manner of your death, with no way of knowing at which point you might lose capacity, you may have to go years earlier, to make that choice.
Also it would still be abroad, under this bill.
Thank you for covering this. I've found it very hard to follow the discourse due to a very recent, very brutal loss through cancer. When you understand the realities, allowing AD is the only compassionate choice. I'm just sad that we haven't been brave enough to do this as a country sooner.
What's both wonderful and at the same time arse-bitingly frustrating is that they bloody well CAN (almost) all be grown ups, when they want to be. A collective banging-together of heads is required next time the house goes all jeering posh schoolboy.
Thank you, Ian, for reporting this as I could not watch it. I am very pleased with he vote, although somewhat surprised at the large number of No votes, against moving the Bill to committee stage. We are nowhere near the end, but at least we are progressing.
They are going to reduce support for old and disabled people and will nudge them along into „voluntary“ death. Watch them change the narrative about „burden“ and „written off“…
Ian, I’ve been following this thread on and off since this morning and your commentary had the thoughtfulness, respect for difference and dignity that was so needed today. Thank you, it was much appreciated
Thank you for this fine thread Ian. Very helpful for the time-pressed among us, and so moving to read. Aptly captures a very strange and welcome sense of parliament a) being respectful, and b) mattering.
And then, because this is arguably the most preposterous country on earth, Speaker Lindsay Hoyle says: "Right, thank you everybody. We're going to move on to the ferrets bill if people wish to leave."
Thank you, Ian. I couldn't, and didn't particularly want to, watch it myself, but it was very helpful to check in occasionally until I lost my connection in the pub
I don't know, that's one of the things I love most about this country, that we slide from sublime to ridiculous without missing a beat.
Like that scene in The Royle Family where the room is stunned into silence by Joe singing a heart rending song only for someone to say "I can still smell dog shit!"
If ever there was a moment where he could have said a few words about how difficult the vote must have been and thanked them for their diligence.
But no… ferrets
To be fair it’s really focused on the long standing issue of animal welfare but like all good chairs he knew we would all be rather affected by the previous 5hrs so the chance to lighten the mood was helpful
And Puppy, Kitten & Ferret Smuggling also passed 2nd reading & is being supported by Gov 🥳
Thank you for your account. This is such an important issue and I'm so glad it is finally being had. Those who fought and died for it are here too. I'm talking it through with my daughter who is against it. It's amazing that our parliament is able to discuss it so sensibly and carefully.
Thank you so much for doing this, Ian. Your context and reporting is fantastic. I watched some of it on TV and like you say, I don't think I’ve ever seen a debate like it. A properly functioning parliament.
Mr. Dunt, thank you very much
You've done a hell of a wonderful job; as the MPs in the Commons have
This reminds us that, from time to time, Parliaments do function
'He spoke of a man who had been reduced to committing suicide by walking in front of a train. He waited until 2am so he could minimise the interference to commuters. For some reason I found this act so affecting I was temporarily overcome with emotion.'
Perhaps if MPs were given a free vote on everything it would improve all parliamentary debate. Just imagine if they had to work for their money by listening to the arguments and voting for what they felt was best for the country, instead of merely toeing their party line and yahbooing the others.
I listened to some of it on R5L and wondered why all debates couldn’t be like this. I don’t want boo-ha politics, members shouting and braying. I want reasoned debate that actually informs as this one did. I learnt a lot from the speeches I heard. Thanks for the earlier posts and this summary.
I felt moved by the sincerity that prevailed in the debate in the Commons today; it was a good day for democracy; a proud day for the tenacious & principled MP Kim Leadbeater who sponsored the bill so expertly.As for the PM, quietly he followed through on his promises & Parliament is better for it!
Thank you for navigating this discussion on here. Your clear and empathetic breakdown of points made by all the speakers has been very helpful, even as I watched it on TV.
Comments
300 to 330 = another 30 more votes (to add to 275)
25 +30 = majority of 55 votes
Thanks for reposting how MPs voted 🙏
Noes: 275
There then needs to be an agreement between the two Houses, or it will pass automatically if delayed too long by the Lords, who can only delay bills by up to a year.
You can see more here: https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/parliament-act-1949-reducing-the-power-to-delay/
I'm not saying the bill as it stands is perfect, but it can be tidied up in the next stage of proceedings. The important thing is that it *does* continue.
Name and shame them.
Your threads are a joy to read.
So good to see Parliament able to do what it’s there for, rather than being bypassed as we’ve become accustomed to in recent years. Am also relieved the religious dogma-based arguments didn’t prevail (so far, at least). By the way, worked a treat on this app.
It has cleary been very moving for all involved.
Excellent summary of a very difficult debate.
I would like to see dementia included in discussions going forward. Advanced dementia can be a living hell.
People with dementia know what their fate is, they know there is no cure. They fear the advanced stage.
My point, and I do have one, is that it is terminal, and while they have capacity, ways could be considered to make provision.
In The Netherlands, it is possible by an advance directive (when still decisionally competent)
However, patients have a right to say no. But in advanced dementia, ppl can’t anymore.
Out of 9068 euthanasias in 2023, 336 were dementia related, of which only 8 in an advanced state.
It seems even more cruel that with some illnesses, if you were to choose the manner of your death, with no way of knowing at which point you might lose capacity, you may have to go years earlier, to make that choice.
Also it would still be abroad, under this bill.
Almost restores my confidence in parliamentary democracy after the last 14 years of complete sh*t-show.
I love our country all the more.
Probably.
Great effort today!
🐀
Otherwise whats the point, seriously.
Like that scene in The Royle Family where the room is stunned into silence by Joe singing a heart rending song only for someone to say "I can still smell dog shit!"
(dammit)
Anyway, thanks for your hard work. Much appreciated.
But no… ferrets
And Puppy, Kitten & Ferret Smuggling also passed 2nd reading & is being supported by Gov 🥳
https://bsky.app/profile/conunitucl.bsky.social/post/3lc362rubdu2e
https://bsky.app/profile/dannychambers.bsky.social/post/3lc45jv22sk26
This was the single most impressive parliamentary debate we've seen in years.
https://iandunt.substack.com/p/assisted-dying-triumph-for-reformers
You've done a hell of a wonderful job; as the MPs in the Commons have
This reminds us that, from time to time, Parliaments do function
https://skywriter.blue/pages/iandunt.bsky.social/post/3lc37ekdsk226
But some governing out of Government.
Nah, don't believe it. :)
A day to be remembered for the right reasons.
If you want to pay for it go here (you get fuck all in returm, absolutely nothing) https://iandunt.substack.com/subscribe
I have no idea why I knew that but I checked and it is true
Historic.
But far too late for so many.