Hunter Biden pardon decision dangerous on a few levels 1. Clearly using pardon powers for family bad in of itself 2. Legitimises practice for next admin & to push envelope further 3. Most importantly feeds into anti system view of “one rule for them” and anger at democratic rot - ThreadSky

luketryl.bsky.social • 88 days ago

Hunter Biden pardon decision dangerous on a few levels 1. Clearly using pardon powers for family bad in of itself 2. Legitimises practice for next admin & to push envelope further 3. Most importantly feeds into anti system view of “one rule for them” and anger at democratic rot

Comments

wafcrob.bsky.social•88 days ago

Luke, you realise if he didn't pardon him then the DOJ would try and ruin his life yeah?

paulshrews33.bsky.social•88 days ago

Let's not pretend there are any standards left in American political culture.

cjbill.bsky.social•88 days ago

All well and good but... Trump has already pardoned a family member, Charles Kushner.

shopgirl2694.bsky.social•88 days ago

Are you brain-dead? So Democrats are supposed to be the party of lie back and take it...we have to be perfect and never do what is right and then...Trump ( the worst person on earth) gets elected. Get over yourself.

eagleowlsheila.bsky.social•88 days ago

Well said. A depressing number of people are justifying behaviour they would condemn if Trump did it. I know it's complex but the whataboutery is quite something.

rsblyth.bsky.social•88 days ago

You realise that hunter Biden was, objectively, a politically motivated prosecution, as similar crimes have not been prosecuted. This is a legitimate use of the presidents pardon powers - IMHO.

josedeo.bsky.social•88 days ago

You nailed it. Pardon IS a constitutional mechanism, and balances eventual Justice abuses. The fact that Trump used them for personal gains doesn't make the actual use of a perdon something automatically unethical or wrong. And, in this case, it's been absolutely correctly applied.

eagleowlsheila.bsky.social•88 days ago

And you'd both have said exactly that if it was Trump doing it, I'm sure! I know it's complex, I know Trump is evil and will use the justice system for his own nasty ends, but the minute you use your power to benefit your family you've crossed a line, imv.

josedeo.bsky.social•88 days ago

But is it "benefitting your son" to save him from an unfair and politically motivated process that is, by all accounts, disproportionate to the actual crime and wouldn't happen to someone other than Hunter Biden?
That's what pardons are for... (Continues)

eagleowlsheila.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yes of course it's benefiting him, understandable on a human level but a terrible precedent that people would condemn if Trump had done it. Prisons are full of people prosecuted or convicted because they're poor, black, vulnerable etc. Saving your family is not a good look, nor is defending it imv.

josedeo.bsky.social•88 days ago

Pardons used to clear your family after a proper and really politically unaffected processes - like Kushner's and his hooker's payment one - are, on the other hand, an abuse and self benefitting application.
Context matters!

olchefdan.bsky.social•88 days ago

Next admin? Are you a brand new baby?

marhug.bsky.social•88 days ago

Just another example of why America is no longer a serious country, but increasingly looks like a failed state.

gavalaaaa.bsky.social•88 days ago

“Legitimizes practice for next admin”

aozora-aonami.bsky.social•88 days ago

If Biden didn't pardon him, he'd have been persecuted by the Trump crime admin. He already was persecuted.

aozora-aonami.bsky.social•88 days ago

If he were handing over to a normal regime, maybe, but Trump and his cabal of sex offenders need no excuse. Trump already pardoned the fraudster he is sending as his Ambassador to France and will pardon countless insurrectionists.

otiscampbell.bsky.social•88 days ago

The "we can not set that precedent, the Republicans will abuse it" just seems like the silliest argument to me. If you dont think they will do something evil because they can't think of a pretense, well, when has that happened

"We have to live up to the Democrats' example"? Never heard that yet.

juanpablodewes.bsky.social•88 days ago

He didn’t set the precedent though.

Trump pardoned his father-in-law and is giving him a job in the administration.

“Precedent” lol

https://apnews.com/article/trump-france-ambassador-charles-kushner-pardon-c3835be92b1fbd1dffcd05707cba9f52

andybuchan.bsky.social•88 days ago

Trump doesn’t care and has already pardoned murderers. He’s giving important jobs to people he has pardoned for their crimes. I understand your point but the US isn’t a normal country and Hunter could be in more danger if he wasn’t pardoned.

leu2500.bsky.social•88 days ago

Now do Charles Kushner’s pardon

rossignol.bsky.social•88 days ago

Absurd that they have such a power at all. Monarchical stuff.

simonbayliss.bsky.social•88 days ago

There's a certain amount of truth in the saying that the UK is a republic masquerading as a monarchy while the USA is a monarchy masquerading as a republic

rossignol.bsky.social•88 days ago

Well it's certainly an elective monarchy now, if it wasn't already.

jwripple.bsky.social•88 days ago

I would say more a pseudo-elective oligarchy.

drpaulitious.bsky.social•88 days ago

https://bsky.app/profile/explaintrade.com/post/3lccosezakc2i

yatesyman.bsky.social•88 days ago

Americans have voted FOR the swamp. Trump's criminality has already been legitimised, regardless of anything Biden does.

csav55.bsky.social•88 days ago

Trump has already done this, he pardoned his son in law's Father and wants to install him to high office. Enough with the pearl clutching, Hunter Biden's conviction was vindictive, Biden has just saved his sons life, any parent would do the same.

gmlidington.bsky.social•88 days ago

Agree with 1 and 3, but the boat sailed on 2 along time ago. Trump pardoned his daughter’s father-in-law in his first term, and he’s about to be appointed US ambassador to Paris. The idea the Trump admin needs any pretext to push the envelope on this kind of stuff is absurd.

bust3d00.bsky.social•88 days ago

Trump already did it
And will try to pardon himself anyway

American politics is in the gutter

rsblyth.bsky.social•88 days ago

Valid points all, but to suggest this ‘legitimizes’ the shit show of nepotistic corruption that’s about to unfold is wrong on so many levels.

seedeemcleod.bsky.social•88 days ago

In a normal world that would be a good point but 1. next admin needs no excuse and will push the envelope regardless. 2. Next admin appointed a pardoned family member as the ambassador to France less than a week ago.

fillbuckets.bsky.social•88 days ago

Next administration has and will push the envelope regardless. They lack ethics and morals. Joe's action is inconsequential.

prefersdogs.bsky.social•88 days ago

Sorry but I do not care about precedent

Trump plans to pardon his supporters who stormed into the capital
He has pardoned worst

gio93mo.bsky.social•87 days ago

Also voting for a convicted felon means that you don't believe in the rule of the law

zenlightning.bsky.social•88 days ago

I don't buy into that thinking. #1 sure, using pardon powers on family is bad form - but what choice did he have when the incoming president clearly wants to pursue revenge instead of law? #2 - All legitimacy in the process was already destroyed by trump. #3 - Maga propaganda isn't altered by truth.

james-oc.bsky.social•88 days ago

Luke, are you familiar with Donald Trump and his merry band of supporters? They are not particularly bothered about 'rules' or 'laws' or 'norms'. Neither, it seems, are the majority of Americans.

steve10089172.bsky.social•88 days ago

Not sure B is relivant on any level. Trump doesnt give a fuck what biden does, hes gonna do whatever he wants anyway.

trefeca.bsky.social•88 days ago

It was amusing hear Trump condemning this just a couple of days after he’d appointed his son-in-law’s father, whom he had pardoned, to be Ambassador to France.

thevoice0freason.bsky.social•88 days ago

The problem is, you don't get to chose which moral high ground you are going to fight from.
Hunter Biden was clearly persecuted and treated unfairly compared to others.
This single, justified, minor offence pardon, will become turbo-charged whataboutery that will see 100's of Trump blanket pardons.

legalclaret.bsky.social•88 days ago

All true, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

dasoakster.bsky.social•88 days ago

This view sums up the democratic malaise we see in the US and over here. Such differing standards applied when it suits.

medgrt.bsky.social•88 days ago

Haven’t the previous government already done that . Used the pardons for their benefit . I don’t like Joe Biden but this one should be treated as it is . His love for his son

emptywheel.bsky.social•88 days ago

When Kash Patel launches investigations in the second term based on some guy paying a sex worker and keeps investigators looking for some reason to investigate for six years, would you recognize that as corruption?

Was DOJ setting up a channel for dirt from Russian spies corrupt?

walksilly.bsky.social•88 days ago

Garland should release docs of comms between Rudy, Barr, Brady and Weiss re: Hunter before Bondi can burn them

emptywheel.bsky.social•88 days ago

SOME of those are already out. SOME of those may not have been preserved from first term. MUCH of that they did w/o paperwork.

vincentparker.bsky.social•88 days ago

American voters have said loudly and clearly: they love a strongman who grabs whatever he wants as long as he can get away with it. Norms and rules are for pussies.

chester66red.bsky.social•88 days ago

Drumpf doesn’t need an excuse as he’s already made it plain he’s gonna push the envelope and burn it all down, Biden protected his son from more Drumpf and republicans obsessive attacks etc

luketryl.bsky.social•88 days ago

Honestly hard to think of many actions that would validate the anger of those who want to “drain the swamp” than the president issuing such a sweeping pardon to help his own son.

civ7.bsky.social•88 days ago

How did Trump pardoning his daughter's father in law help 'drain the swamp'?

andy-larter.bsky.social•88 days ago

The very possibility of pardoning anyone at a whim is ridiculous. Straight out of medieval guide book. I don't blame Biden. I blame the constitution.

justlee.bsky.social•88 days ago

Trump extorted Zelenskyy to try and "find" evidence of wrong-doing by the Bidens. If we were talking about a pardon in normal circumstances then I'd be more minded to agree. In present circumstances, with an administration (e.g. Patel) looking to keep QAnon folks happy? Not so much.

sjgrist.bsky.social•88 days ago

may i direct you here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump

but of course it's different when the orange god does it because.... MAGA?

richardparkin.bsky.social•88 days ago

Huh? Think of most of the pardons Trump issued. Job done. Unless the rules don’t apply to Trump.

jonpsadler.bsky.social•88 days ago

And Trump says “hold my beer”….

eddiedolan.bsky.social•88 days ago

That phrase was always a joke, trump's pardons of stone and manafort and kushner were obscenely corrupt. No one who voted for him this time seriously believes he'll drain the swamp. He's packed his cabinet with unqualified loyalists and billionaires.

pipkazan.bsky.social•88 days ago

“Democratic rot,” you say. Dude we’ve been able to smell the corpse of US democracy from across the pond since Bush vs Gore.

vincentparker.bsky.social•88 days ago

If they are angry, it’s not because Biden has violated a norm, it’s because Biden has scored a win. They hate Biden so much that any Biden win is cause for their outburst. These people consider this a war. They don’t care about norms and rules. Their hero is Trump after all.

luketryl.bsky.social•88 days ago

Lots of replies saying “but Trump did x” and no doubt those are wrong - democrats also a ran a campaign saying Trump is a threat to democratic and legal norms, so you might expect to be able to hold them to a higher standard.

cjbill.bsky.social•88 days ago

More you say it sets a precedent when that precedent was already set by Trump

richardparkin.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yep. You can’t set a precedent twice and only the impeachment and removal from office, or criminal conviction of Trump would have reset it. But apparently that was weaponising the law.

davidbent.bsky.social•88 days ago

Also, fundamental disconnect to argue in first half of 2024 say ‘Trump is threat to democracy’ and ‘Biden is not in any kind of age-related decline, is good for another four years; we’re definitely not hiding anything from you’.

Already undermined voter trust. As you say, this feeds the anger.

richardparkin.bsky.social•88 days ago

Why aren’t they angry with Trump’s blatant corruption?

vincentparker.bsky.social•88 days ago

Trump is still a threat to democracy. Biden’s pardon doesn’t change that. And if Trumpers are angry because of that, all the better. It’s time to turn the table on “own the libs”

davidbent.bsky.social•88 days ago

Don’t disagree. Trump far worse than Biden.

And also, the medium is the message.

If Dems have been clearly trying to use power for their own benefit (Biden isn’t aging, pardoning Hunter), then harder to convince voters that Trump is bad because he will use power for his own benefit.

vincentparker.bsky.social•88 days ago

Voters are clear now about who they want: strongmen who will not hesitate to use power for personal benefit. It’s time to give voters what they want.

richardparkin.bsky.social•88 days ago

Mate, you were specifically mentioned the anger of those who talk of draining the swamp. If they didn’t care about Trump’s pardons, their anger clearly has a different cause and no amount of Dem rule conformity will assuage it. Come on.

thamf.bsky.social•88 days ago

Defending democratic norms lost them an election. Dems need to tap into the anti establishment feeling and argue for constitutional reform.

luketryl.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yeah I think reform and leaning into problems of the establishment is the right path for Dems, don’t think pardoning your son is the way to do it.

thamf.bsky.social•88 days ago

I agree, but the dems could use this as one many reasons why reform is essential. That way they won’t be called hypocrites. They have to detach from the last decade of Biden and Obama and present themselves as the new generation.

vincentparker.bsky.social•88 days ago

If Biden had not pardoned his son, he would have lost my respect. This shows that he has balls. In fact, if he had not done it, Trumpers would have laughed in his face. This makes Trumpers angry but deep down they respect the move. This is of course what Trump would have done without hesitation.

vincentparker.bsky.social•88 days ago

When they go low, we need to go lower. Republicans have shown that they are willing to do anything just because they can. Remember how they denied Obama Supreme Court pick even a hearing? Stop being a pussy. Obama was weak for allowing them to get away with it.

luketryl.bsky.social•88 days ago

“Dems played by the rules and lost” ok fine but don’t we think some basic norms are worth trying to uphold? Doesn’t mean having to defend or be pro establishment, dems can tap into their own anti establishment rhetoric but presidents pardoning their son is not that.

seedeemcleod.bsky.social•88 days ago

All basic norms are about to go out of the window with a vengeance from next month. For anybody who cares about such things, the biggest argument to vote Democrat in 2029 will be the next 4 years of Trump’s second term.

luketryl.bsky.social•88 days ago

Partisanship is a hell of a drug.

olchefdan.bsky.social•88 days ago

Name a single thing that Trump will do differently now that Biden has thrown out the rule book. Lol.

lightvessel.bsky.social•88 days ago

What would YOU do in his situation? If you feared for your child’s future under Trump. I know I’d do it. And here you are talking about Biden when the actual story is the lickspittle conspiracy-theorist that’s just been appointed to lead the FBI.

genx100.bsky.social•88 days ago

Joe Biden looked America right in the eye and lied to us

justlee.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yup. Hard to believe that some think that the MAGA pursuit of Hunter would be based on legal norms (particularly given Trump's previous impeachment), but apparently there are still some out there...

leftback.bsky.social•88 days ago

Oh m8.

richardparkin.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yes. The partisanship demonstrated by the failure of the Senate to convict Trump being the most egregious example.

calgordon.bsky.social•88 days ago

I genuinely think it would make for a good use of your poll work to survey both sides and give them the exact same scenario.
Polarisation is bigger than you all think especially in America.

mikercameron.bsky.social•88 days ago

The point is Trump is already at stage 2, appointing people he’s previously pardoned. That’s where the risk to democratic norms is at right now. That’s where to focus.

mikercameron.bsky.social•88 days ago

What about a president who issues a pardon to help his daughter’s father-in-law?

This dam had already been breeched.

webweasel.bsky.social•88 days ago

Exactly. It’s a leaf from the Trump playbook not the other way around. (Not to say it’s good either. There shouldn’t be a ‘pardon’ for Presidents in a functional democracy)

gj4man.bsky.social•88 days ago

Meh.

These norms were already well and truly broken, and if you think Joe not pardoning Hunter would have any bearing on Trump's second term, please contact me about these lovely bridges I have available...

perigominas.bsky.social•88 days ago

Luke, this is symptomatic of liberal democratic weakness in the current reality. You are clinging to the notion that in a politics driven by Ego, Super-Ego is needed. But politics is now driven by the Id, and it is impervious to moral tut-tutting.

jdodger4.bsky.social•88 days ago

I do find the entire concept of presidential pardons very odd. Sure, it’s good to redress injustices and as the old wisdom goes: it is better to allow criminals to go free than convict one innocent individual but to have a system where POTUS can unilaterally pardon seems inherently flawed.

jdodger4.bsky.social•88 days ago

To be clear, I believe pardons serve a good purpose, it’s just the unilateral part that I see as bad “law”.

greymayday.bsky.social•88 days ago

It is because trump does not hold to normal practices that Joe felt it was essential to protect Hunter from trump's vengence.

Hunter's crimes were minor and focused on only because of his father's position.

This feels like justice to most of us.

stefanodepatmos.bsky.social•88 days ago

The only good thing (although it won’t change anything) is to highlight what a stupid system is is to allow such pardons

calgordon.bsky.social•88 days ago

They reelected Donald Trump, people don’t care about norms…

jwripple.bsky.social•88 days ago

You really think that Trump would be inhibited in any way by Biden exercising restraint?

nickren.bsky.social•88 days ago

Counterpoint - he’s an 81 year old father doing what he can to protect is remaining son against the vindictiveness of an incoming regime.

bust3d00.bsky.social•88 days ago

And he should not be above the law

nickren.bsky.social•88 days ago

What do they say? Don’t hate the player, hate the game. The President shouldn’t have this power, but as they do this action is completely understandable.

bust3d00.bsky.social•88 days ago

Understandably selfish

If that's what he is , then that's how he acts

Standards are essential to beat the shitstain of tramp
This just tars everyone

nickren.bsky.social•88 days ago

“When they go low, we go high” didn’t work then, and I don’t see any reason it will work in the future.

bust3d00.bsky.social•88 days ago

Going low will definitely not work

josedeo.bsky.social•88 days ago

Standards are by definition agreed and followed by ALL parts. There's nothing ethical or fair to get one side to be handicapped and suffer the consequences of them when the other side won't follow and will abuse the system for their own profit. 1/2

bust3d00.bsky.social•88 days ago

Trump did not follow the agreed standards

josedeo.bsky.social•88 days ago

We all want a clean political environment, but allowing your addiction recovered son - after losing the other to illness - to be abused by the next admin in a case completely driven by political pressure from the right, built into something disproportionate to the actual crime, is NOT the way. 2/2

luketryl.bsky.social•88 days ago

Would you say the same of Trump doing it?

rsblyth.bsky.social•88 days ago

How is this relevant - trump has done it before and will do it again, the problem is the double standards and the msm’s insistence on calling one out, while ignoring the other.

luketryl.bsky.social•88 days ago

But there was outrage when Trump did it!

rsblyth.bsky.social•88 days ago

You’re also ignoring the fact that hunter was being prosecuted for who he was rather than what he did.

rsblyth.bsky.social•88 days ago

Which press and which pardon (s)?

rsblyth.bsky.social•88 days ago

Mike Flynn ?
Paul manafort
Roger stone
Dinesh D’Souza
Charles Kushner

prefersdogs.bsky.social•88 days ago

He would that’s the point

alphatozulu.bsky.social•88 days ago

No, the point is, Trump *already has*. Don’t let anyone get away with trying to say Biden did it first.

thamf.bsky.social•88 days ago

I feel like the sentiment towards Biden is not fair. Jan 6th broke all conventional norms of presidency and democracy in America. putting Trump back in the White House proved that the public do not care either. Whatever happens Jan 6th will be the baseline of when things changed forever. 1/2

thamf.bsky.social•88 days ago

For the next 4 years the Dems need to make sure that they’re not stuck defending conventional norms.They need to make a case for constitutional reform and point to all all these examples as to why reform is needed. It will be mistake for them to argue to conventional norms. Battleground has changed.

budgiecr.bsky.social•88 days ago

Trump WILL do it. Trying to take the moral high ground against him is pissing into the wind.
And, Biden's son's troubles are mostly political attacks.

nickren.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yep.

hazhay.bsky.social•88 days ago

Agreed but pardoning yourself which Trump will do tops all these points.

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