Are they/them pronouns gender-neutral? Should we use them as default? Should we just assume based on gender presentation? I wrote an essay with my thoughts about this recurring discourse, using the lens of the 'conflicting access need' from disability spaces. open.substack.com/pub/jessotho... - ThreadSky

jessothomson.co.uk • 60 days ago

Are they/them pronouns gender-neutral? Should we use them as default? Should we just assume based on gender presentation?

I wrote an essay with my thoughts about this recurring discourse, using the lens of the 'conflicting access need' from disability spaces.

https://open.substack.com/pub/jessothomson/p/theythem-pronouns-and-conflicting

Comments

forestfarmerval.bsky.social•59 days ago

Thank you 🩵🏳️‍⚧️ I misgender occasionally despite my best intentions and efforts. I break their and my heart when I do. 🩵🙇🩷 I show up with my whole heart and work to forgive myself 🙏🏼

lisaarchibald.bsky.social•60 days ago

Really great article, super useful and lots i am reflecting on having just read it. I am often in queer spaces and I might default to they/them when unsure to reduce harm caused getting it wrong but now I am pondering the deeper nuances to doing that - thank you for sharing

autisticmumto3.bsky.social•60 days ago

It's a difficult subject. It's not likely to be law for everyone to wear pronoun badges any time soon & even then there is the problem of phones or how do address letters. Will Sir/Madam be good enough? If there is a name do you use Mr/Ms/Mx etc if only first name & surname or is it OK to use their

autisticmumto3.bsky.social•60 days ago

first name if its your landlord or in a business context etc not an informal setting where use of first name is more likely to be acceptable.

arraxis.bsky.social•60 days ago

Thank you for talking about conflicting access needs - I found that quite interesting and it's good to see some thought going into it.

celialicious.bsky.social•58 days ago

It occurred to me while reading Judith Butler's old performance marriage metaphor, that a better analogy might be job performance. You are a type of worker by performing your job duties. You are a hobbyist of a certain type by performing actions engaged in that hobby.

raechuchu.bsky.social•60 days ago

I think the actual point, the synthesis of both needs, is that how you gender someone needs to not be informed by how 'clocky' or 'trans' they look. Whether you go by visible gender expression, or refrain from gendering until you know, the important part is not to treat trans people differently.

vinvocci.bsky.social•60 days ago

Sorry to put a negative on this post but I want to share this https://bsky.app/profile/mxfee.bsky.social/post/3leh5zzmsls25

karlmollusk.bsky.social•60 days ago

Great essay!! One weird thing I noticed is I really liked your explanation of the “stereotypically feminine clothes” thing that is often pointed out by transphobes. I had no idea how to word a kind of rebuttal to that stupid clearly silly ass argument, for some reason I could never think of that

laurenipsum.net•59 days ago

my pronouns are she, not anything but he!

emerykillian.bsky.social•56 days ago

Really appreciated this essay - and the lens through which you approached this discourse. 👏🏼

midcatecrisis.bsky.social•60 days ago

📌

lucyrose.info•60 days ago

I've not read this article yet but just wanted to add that someone in a queer/trans space called me "they" recently (I'm a trans woman) and it just made me feel bad tbh, but I didn't want to correct them because I was working, didn't want to be awkward. Wish people would just ask pronouns instead!

lucyrose.info•60 days ago

It made me feel like it's obvious that I'm trans/non-passing, which I always hate! 💩

odinscrow.bsky.social•60 days ago

I've simply come to accept that the majority of cis people I know, with rare exception, use they/them. Even with a fuck-off big pin on my jacket saying MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM.

kelcywinter.bsky.social•60 days ago

great piece. i appreciate the thought you put into this but im not sure i agree with your conclusion. as a trans woman who doesnt present very femininely but uses she/her pronouns i would prefer someone who doesnt know my pronouns to use they/them rather than assuming he/him based on my appearance

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

I don't think my conclusion is that people should simply use he/him if someone presents masculinely. I think it's that we should be particularly sensitive to the specific degendering of transfeminine people and that should guide how we build our community norms around this.

kelcywinter.bsky.social•60 days ago

apologies for not catching that the first read through. i see what you are saying now. im still not sure what secret third option can be found between presentation-as-gender and default-gender-neutral language.

kelcywinter.bsky.social•60 days ago

what i wouldn't give for some kind of futuristic gender ID beacon 🚨

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

I suggest a couple - asking people, normalising pins etc. - we just have to be conscious about doing those in ways which aren't perpetuating more harm. On the whole though I want to leave the solutions to the community's creativity - I just wanted to explain where the harm/tension is currently.

staticblitz.bsky.social•60 days ago

Great read & I totally agree as a transmasc nonbinary person. I don't use they/them, more of a neopronouns person which is also kinda a problem when ppl default to they/them esp when they realise I'm nonbinary. 1/2

staticblitz.bsky.social•60 days ago

I have a transfem girlfriend & hang out with a lot of transfems, it's really depressing & obvious when ppl just default to they/them bc someone is clockable. I guess it's nice that it's not an upfront hostile misgendering but the bar is on the floor so it's really not much better. 2/2

desastertristan.bsky.social•60 days ago

A good overview over the whole topic, though I think an aspect is missing here: Some non-binary people don't want they/them pronouns either because it's simply not their pronouns. I'm non-binary and go with he/him and it/its and I don't like they/them at all, it makes me dysphoric.

desastertristan.bsky.social•60 days ago

Then there is also the problem that some people might be uncomfortable giving out pronouns in situations where they have to lie about their identity for safety. Overall, no solution seems to be great.

smedium.bsky.social•60 days ago

Yeah, that's one aspect I thought of particularly when pronoun pins were brought up. Solving one issue by having everyone declare their pronouns creates another where people are forced to misgender or out themselves. It's another situation with conflicting access needs.

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

This is my first substack post. I am using this to keep blogs and thoughts I have which are not strictly academic or reporting/analysis. Just my thoughts as they arise!

You can subscribe if you would like.
https://jessothomson.substack.com/

jessothomson.co.uk•59 days ago

https://bsky.app/profile/jessothomson.co.uk/post/3lfahvlyrqs2i

acelestialbody.bsky.social•59 days ago

this is the take. it's not a zero sum game and any solution that treats it as such is bound to hurt someone. trans people are smart and creative enough to find ways that both combat degendering and don't demand nonbinary people get misgendered based on presentation.

warehousepanda.bsky.social•60 days ago

This is a great essay, thank you!

natalyad.bsky.social•59 days ago

One idea I've seen used in queer (mixed cis/trans/gender non conforming) is "Person" as neutral pronoun - especially if you can't ask/know someone's pronouns e.g. "person over there has a great dress". It comes from Woman on the Edge of Time which uses it for all/all-time time which we don't have to

natalyad.bsky.social•59 days ago

From my disability experience; before we go into "least/most harm" we explore if there IS any compromise, or mix-n-match. Taking your lighting example brighter/dimmer lit areas of the room, looking at sunglasses for photosensitive folk.

Not sure how pronouns mix n match thobut.

voidsbunny.bsky.social•60 days ago

Oddly, androgyny specifically WON'T cause they/them pronouns

I've been in groups where some people choose she/her and others choose he/him for me.

It's a snap decision, but once they decide, they won't change it.

No one ever asks me, and no one ever picks they/them.

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

Interesting. I think I have had a different experience specifically within queer spaces, where if I dress more androgynously (or hilariously in something like a pair of dungarees) then I get they/them-ed a lot more.

voidsbunny.bsky.social•60 days ago

This wasn't in a queer space. It was all cis people.

They were very confused, and I was fine with that.

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

Yeah, I think there is a very different dynamic within cis spaces.

voidsbunny.bsky.social•60 days ago

In trans spaces specifically, I'm generally assumed to be transmasc.

If I mention that I'm on estrogen, then the very confused looks occur.

Even where non-binary people are welcomed, there are still gendered assumptions.

"Are you a girl non-binary or a boy non-binary?"

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

Yeah, I spend more time correcting people's assumptions about what I am than positively saying anything about who I am.

voidsbunny.bsky.social•60 days ago

They want me in a gendered box.

They just can't agree on which one.

corvidae.bsky.social•59 days ago

Two or three times in a local hobby group people I'm generally friendly with will refer to me like 'she-- he-- shit, they'. pronoun roulette 💀

maya-klenger.bsky.social•60 days ago

I (transfemme non-binary) use she/her interpersonally and it's pronouns I like a lot, but I kind of gave up on trying to signal it publicly, because I practically always get called either he/him (as a first guess) or they/them, presenting more or less androgynously. Some even called me theyfab lol.

maya-klenger.bsky.social•60 days ago

Big disappointment for me was that I noticed how even transfems called other transfem enbies only they/them during disagreements. I feel it's something that isn't acknowledged enough inside transfem spaces, for all degendering discussions a lot treat transfem enbies as very provisional trans women.

maya-klenger.bsky.social•60 days ago

Of course outside transfem spaces it's much much worse, people just straight he/him me in IRL queer spaces. But still I feel like it's unacknowledged how a subtle kind of degendering where "enbiness" is equated to they/them and enforced based on individual agreeability exists practically everywhere.

maya-klenger.bsky.social•60 days ago

But yeah, this issue is not to be simplified imo, because it affects both general genderqueer people, but also specifically explicitly transfemme enbies and trans women who do gnc (tomboys, butches, etc), we both have a preference for they/them opposite to he/him but also being degendered that way.

maya-klenger.bsky.social•60 days ago

Really liked the article in that sense and agree with its conclusions! I really think compromise exists in a way that acknowledges specific modes of degendering trans women, but also allows people to get outside of strict gendered boxes of presentation in a relatively safe and affirming way.

maya-klenger.bsky.social•60 days ago

There might not be a single approach that fits all contexts and situations, but it's not an issue that is unsolvable. We should both insist on exposing an instrument of degendering but also not assume that any compromise or solution is always made in bad faith. We navigate, not draw straight lines.

jennaw.bsky.social•60 days ago

This is a great discussion, and I agree with you. I’m a trans feminine presenting non-binary person. I’d expect people would assume she/her unless they know me well. I’m not offended by that, but I feel that may be my own gender thing. It’s good to hear another perspective from you though.

alexmittoo.bsky.social•60 days ago

This was a great read! Would love to learn more about conflicting access needs and how they're navigated, especially if they are actively opposed needs

phyphor.one-dash.org•60 days ago

"... the reality is that each of us do so subconsciously, all the time."

[citation needed] because not everyone does.

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

There is a lot of literature on this, I would probably start with Serano's account of it in her latest book Sexed Up. I think it's in Chapter 1. This doesn't mean we can't consciously address our tendencies though.

phyphor.one-dash.org•60 days ago

I'm pretty confident that not everyone is doing it because some people just don't grasp the concept.

jessothomson.co.uk•60 days ago

I will happily change it to 'most'.

phyphor.one-dash.org•60 days ago

Thank you

ashmouth.bsky.social•60 days ago

cupric.bsky.social•60 days ago

I used to default to they or ask pronouns for everyone, including cis people. My current stance is that my presentation will always cause me to be misgendered. It's easier(& not an issue, personally)to just use pins or other explicit indicators for myself and otherwise rely on presentation cues

rosevdale.bsky.social•60 days ago

fantastic piece, thanks for this! you really hit the nail on the head about how society FORCES feminine presentation on trans women-- and then in the same breath criticizes us for it.

rosevdale.bsky.social•60 days ago

(personally, as a trans fem leaning toward a more androgynous-to-butch presentation, i hate that *even in queer spaces* i have to consciously present myself as more feminine than i want to, just to have a snowball's chance of hell at being gendered correctly...)

rosevdale.bsky.social•60 days ago

(IN hell. a snowball's chance IN hell. lol.)

nightpups.bsky.social•60 days ago

Hell snowballs does sound cool though

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