You get a lot of people making, fairly spurious, claims about how immigration is a "burden" on infrastructure, new homes etc. What those arguments always overlook, among other things, is that without migrants nobody has any infrastructure, new homes etc. #r4today www.bbc.com/news/article... - ThreadSky

danielsohege.bsky.social • 72 days ago

You get a lot of people making, fairly spurious, claims about how immigration is a "burden" on infrastructure, new homes etc.
What those arguments always overlook, among other things, is that without migrants nobody has any infrastructure, new homes etc. #r4today

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yg1471rwpo

Comments

barneygreenway.bsky.social•72 days ago

"Mr Thomas said historically the building sector had recruited a significant number of bricklayers from eastern EU countries, admitting that "in hindsight", the UK had been over-reliant on overseas workers but it had been the "norm"."

Perhaps you're just a cheap overseas labour kind of guy?

garycarter.bsky.social•72 days ago

The majority of existing tradesmen will retire within 10 years, they are not being replaced. Even before Brexit there was a desperate shortage of labour in the industry. I dread to think what it’s like now (I’m retired from all that).

barneygreenway.bsky.social•72 days ago

You may well be right. I'm thinking the government should urgently prioritise vocational training to remedy a historic problem.

I remember Blair's idea that 70% of kids should go to university. Utterly ridiculous.

garycarter.bsky.social•71 days ago

Working in construction is hard work, dangerous (not as dangerous as it used to be but accidents do happen), potentially cold and wet (and very dirty). There is no job security, no sick pay/holidays/pension.

On the other hand, if you know what you’re doing and work hard you can earn a lot of money.

barneygreenway.bsky.social•71 days ago

I'm a road engineer and the kids I see coming through apprenticeships are of higher quality than I was, out of university.

garycarter.bsky.social•71 days ago

I agree that the “young people of today don’t want to work hard” is a Daily Mail myth. However there are lots of ways to earn a decent living that don’t have the downsides of construction.

barneygreenway.bsky.social•71 days ago

The point about pension etc is probably not relevant where you're employed? And if you're self employed, you get a tax saving anyway.

Fully agree with the rest. Tradesmen have gone up A LOT but I'm glad they're making a decent living. Will encourage my kids into the trades if they're keen.

garycarter.bsky.social•71 days ago

Most of the guys on building sites are self employed.

woodycrombie.bsky.social•71 days ago

Surely the 'them forrins is takin' ar jobs' types will step up?

garycarter.bsky.social•71 days ago

I wouldn’t bet on it. Far too much like hard work

globaljukeboxer.bsky.social•72 days ago

Well who knew?

mikenc123.bsky.social•72 days ago

Brexit continues to be one of the most spectacular acts of economic self harm that the country’s inflicted on itself but no politician is brave enough to do anything about it

judyw.bsky.social•71 days ago

1000%

sinisterbulb.bsky.social•72 days ago

Which I agree the argument that economically active immigrants are are drain is completely spurious, it doesn’t seem sustainable to have relied so heavily on it rather than train our own population and pay them properly. (Not going to be solved overnight mind)

gleanniucha.bsky.social•72 days ago

*Looks at the people I’m supposed to train and pay properly..

sinisterbulb.bsky.social•72 days ago

I’d really like to refute this with a killer argument. But I have nothing…. Hoovering up decent people from elsewhere isn’t the answer though, or particularly ethical in the end…

gleanniucha.bsky.social•72 days ago

Hard agree just saddened by what we have*

Credit to the bright keen young things I do meet though

We just do not have enough in any age range

gleanniucha.bsky.social•72 days ago

TBH most of my ire directed at older age groups expected to retrain

Waste of space

sinisterbulb.bsky.social•72 days ago

I agree. Far more impressed by young people than most my age tbf. My kids are twice the person I was at their age. But I think they have to be. Its tougher now in so many ways. Can’t just dick about and float into jobs like I did to some extent.

maximusdesperatus.bsky.social•71 days ago

Someone has to pay the construction costs of each and every new home. If it is not the immigrant, then it is you.

emiljones.bsky.social•72 days ago

Who knew!!! Digital technology can't lay bricks.

slip-sliding.bsky.social•70 days ago

Question: Is a "spurious" claim anything that doesn't agree with your point of view?

slip-sliding.bsky.social•70 days ago

All of us came from somewhere....the current flow of "illegal" immigrants has placed a burden on many local communities...but look at WHY these "illegals" are trying to get here ...what are they fleeing from?
Isn't it ironic that the places they have fled has become the place they have fled to?

slip-sliding.bsky.social•71 days ago

And,guess what, they do put stress on the local economies of the places they settle in. It's a fact..denying it doesn't make it not true.If you are going to rip the right for their bullshit propaganda and gaslighting...we really shouldn't do it ourselves...if you don't like what I've said..BLOCK ME!

slip-sliding.bsky.social•71 days ago

You know what pisses me off? EUPHEMISMS. Calling people entering the country illegally "immigrants" is Orwellian Double Speak..people entering the country illegally are not legal they come from a foreign country, they're"aliens"..they are not ,"immigrants'
They're ILLEGAL Aliens, that's reality..

markeye.bsky.social•72 days ago

They also overlook the financial contribution working immigrants make through taxes - often a greater contribution than many Brits, because most immigrants are fit, younger people who place less of a strain on our state services like the NHS.

fenner1962.bsky.social•72 days ago

As someone who works allied to the construction industry, your statement I believe to be true but it would also be relevant 8 to 10 years ago. Brexit has played a part but so has a lack of investment in training and the facilities to train. And the lack of direct employment for the vast majority.

swanjenn.bsky.social•72 days ago

Chicken and egg

#r4today

danielsohege.bsky.social•72 days ago

That would imply you can't tell whether migrants actually are an issue for infrastructure, which all the evidence shows they not only aren't, but also support, though

swanjenn.bsky.social•72 days ago

Sorry. Not what I meant to imply.

shortbreadfairy.bsky.social•72 days ago

Almost like Labour can't admit the impact of Brexit on the house building sector

iwasproduceking5.bsky.social•71 days ago

Well they could get the homes prefabricated. You know the ones that they make in China.

janetsouthcoast.bsky.social•72 days ago

And immigrants, other than those identified as refugees have no access to social housing.

basjack.bsky.social•71 days ago

BUT, it's also true that a lot of these jobs lack workers because the pay is shit,and it's shit because a lot of immigrants are desperate and willing to work for way less simply because they are often sending money home,so why hire a citizen and pay salary and benefits when you can hire off the book

val23ldn.bsky.social•71 days ago

The pay in the construction industry is not shit, it’s a hard and dirty job. The industry was going strong till Brexit cause east Europeans ran it, then everything turned shit and so they left.

basjack.bsky.social•71 days ago

It's an European trend but yeah pay is shit because it's not changed or it went down, the east European were only willing to work for less, it's not their fault really, they were being used, the government should set higher minimum wage but then the big cats won't profit off light slavery.

val23ldn.bsky.social•71 days ago

Pay is not shit, the lowest skilled in a crew of constructors gets 100£ a day before tax to help and clean around. A specialised one gets even 3 times that. Now idk if you consider it shit and what are your parameters but average uk salary is 35k

basjack.bsky.social•71 days ago

Mh I admit I was Basing on costruction jobs here in italy (pay is 20k where median is 36k), so was wrong. The thing I was describing does happens here in Italy, even made a shop type basycally disappear.

zetkin.bsky.social•71 days ago

Why don't they start by upgrading the 70,000 unoccupied homes that already exist?

michaeltucker.bsky.social•71 days ago

The FT has an article on the same theme and goes into greater detail on the complications and contradictions of attempting to reduce immigration at the same time as building more homes and infrastructure and wanting to train more 'native' workers for the building trades. https://archive.ph/https://www.ft.com/content/ca441a61-6feb-4d94-970a-b83b75b8dcd0

miklosgyalog.bsky.social•72 days ago

One of the bremain arguments that had burnt in my mind was debunking the "immigrants are a burden on the NHS" argument, pointing out that about 5% of the population (3M/65M) was an EU migrant, yet 6% of the NHS workforce (60k/1M). The NHS would struggle more without them.

d2syr.bsky.social•72 days ago

You are more likely to be treated by a migrant in the NHS than have a migrant in front of you in the queue

The NHS and care would fail without migrants

williemillersm1.bsky.social•72 days ago

It's also why the argument about numbers is so stupid when the requirement is flexibility.

You need 50 tradesmen for a 2 month job. Or 100 hospitality staff for a week. Or 40 fruit pickers for 2 weeks.

If only there was a large supply of resource on our doorstep to fill local recruitment gaps.

mikereynolds08.bsky.social•72 days ago

I remember the time when UK building workers were going to Germany to cover for their shortage and of course better wages.
TV's Auf Wiedersen Pet was inspired by it.

awm22.bsky.social•71 days ago

Mobility of Workforce for the win

hawksland.bsky.social•70 days ago

There needs to be frequently repeated messages about the very positive impacts of immigration.....Stephen Flynn SNP spoke eloquently about migrants in one of the leader pre election debates..and put Farage back in his box

sugarcanebook.bsky.social•71 days ago

Not immigration: what they mean is "foreigners". As though an entire civilisation of pure bred humans exists anywhere on earth. As though racial superiority through luck of birth and geography makes someone a more deserving human. As though migration is unnatural and is not a part of our evolution.

pykemain.bsky.social•71 days ago

I think the largest empire throughout history might have raised a few buildings in their time.
You are talking shit, mate. Have some faith in your countrymen.

zerohour13.bsky.social•71 days ago

And who do you think built those buildings for the empire? You do know slavery was in place for more than half the empire’s history. They did what every western nation did, import or steal a bunch of darker people to do it.

pykemain.bsky.social•71 days ago

Are you proposing we can’t build buildings without slavery?

I say the opposite. If we let people own their land instead of government oversight and pave way for broader countryside connections and broadband width, people will turn away from imported workers and hire local builders. Good for all.

zerohour13.bsky.social•71 days ago

No, you said “the biggest empire” as if the brits actually did it on their own without outside help. And how do the “people” get land without government oversight? In the real world, banks end up with all the land. The only reason I could get a home was because of “govt oversight”

pykemain.bsky.social•71 days ago

If i have a gun on my property , will the bank seize it? No. It’s the government. If i shoot an intruder, will the bank seize my gun? No, the government will while they jail me.
There’s no safety benefit to owning property , only safety risks of exposure. Government should fight the banks, not us.

zerohour13.bsky.social•71 days ago

But that sounds a lot like “government overreach” for them to fight the banks doesn’t it? That’s the rub, if you want a free market, without government intervention, then you can’t also demand the government do stuff like that . It’s almost like the problem isn’t completely black and white

bushbaby53.bsky.social•71 days ago

What is actually wrong with immigration?

I just wish Labour would shut up about the right-wing obsession about immigration and get on with putting Britain back on its feet

sharonhawth.bsky.social•72 days ago

FOM with EU would solve this.

garycarter.bsky.social•72 days ago

Why would anyone come?

lieckfeldt.net•72 days ago

That would assume that, once it's restored, European workers would once again flock to the UK instead of, say, Belgium or Germany.
I think that's a pretty big assumption.

sharonhawth.bsky.social•72 days ago

Fair point.

mikeycamera.bsky.social•72 days ago

It’s hardly surprising the U.K. has a lack of builders when you limit training place availability for the best part of 20+ years.

robertfingleton.bsky.social•71 days ago

If only the UK had access to 600 million people right on their doorstep, that could freely move around the continent and work wherever they wanted! 🇪🇺

2tone4real.bsky.social•71 days ago

Yep 👇

https://bsky.app/profile/2tone4real.bsky.social/post/3ldar72gbl22p

tattieboy.bsky.social•71 days ago

Same here in Australia. A decade of conservative rule saw a decline in trade training and an increasing reliance on migrant workers. Now, in opposition, the conservatives are bleating about too many migrants coming in. There is a heavy price to pay for consistently voting tory.

molynj.bsky.social•72 days ago

This. Exactly. We can't build enough homes because the Brexit idiots caused all the builders to go home.

oldneddy.bsky.social•71 days ago

Working in construction for all my life, a lot of trades were filled by migrants and still are. There is a lack of career path and generally poor working conditions to deter all but the most dedicated.

roadwarrior29.bsky.social•71 days ago

BLOODY BREXIT.

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