#EduSky! People on a high from #ascilite24! Give me your one weird trick for spending less time on marking/feedback while still supporting students. One of mine: ask students if they want detailed comments on summative feedback ("final essay"), then only write comments for the ones who say yes. - ThreadSky | a Reddit-style client for Bluesky

ikax.bsky.social • 89 days ago

#EduSky! People on a high from #ascilite24! Give me your one weird trick for spending less time on marking/feedback while still supporting students.

One of mine: ask students if they want detailed comments on summative feedback ("final essay"), then only write comments for the ones who say yes.

Comments

adrianjackson.tv•88 days ago

There was a brief discussion about this in a session with one of Michael Henderson’s students where Michael pointed out that once you are used to giving video feedback it becomes faster and easier than writing. See Henderson & Philips (2015) - year could be wrong.

lucyelm.bsky.social•88 days ago

I like this idea in theory as a marker, but as someone that was an anxious student and never took up on office hours etc. I feel like I wouldn’t have wanted to be ‘cumbersome’ by asking for detailed feedback

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yes, that’s a worry. I think there are lots of better alternatives in the thread now!

lauraskh.bsky.social•89 days ago

I also compile an overall feedback/ common issues/ advice that i make available to all students after an assignment.
Really interesting idea to offer an "opt in" for detailed feedback! (Although the detailed feedback is also useful to review/ moderate across a marking team)

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

Ooh, I hadn’t thought of using the detailed feedback in moderating/calibrating, that’s a good point! Final assessments are usually such a scramble that there isn’t time for much discussion, though, but I might do something like this for an earlier assessment.

lauraskh.bsky.social•89 days ago

Yeah i had earlier assessments in mind. With my law brain, it can be useful for setting out the reasons for your decision, too, so transparency for the student. But the more I reflect on it, when marking in a team, there's also the potential to learn from each other's approaches too, which is cool!

lauraskh.bsky.social•89 days ago

So yeah, theoretically also a valuable way of learning from your peers 😊
Having said all that, 100% agree it can be hugely demanding of time and energy, and super demoralising if not even read 🫠

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yes, that transparency piece is important - it’s partly why I moved away from annotating essays as I read to having a more rubric-based template for feedback, with comments on each broad criterion. But the opportunity to see how other markers read is fascinating!

kbneal.bsky.social•89 days ago

oh yes I concur with the 'common issues and how to fix them' overview - especially good for final assessments when you won't see the class again.

timcoronel.bsky.social•88 days ago

I miss Blackboard's comments library. How many times do I have to write 'space or indent paragraphs!' or 'don't use "impact" when you mean "affect" ...

cristyclark.bsky.social•89 days ago

I use TextExpander for marking. Short snippets turn into detailed customisable feedback in seconds.

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

Ooh. This looks great. Am I right that you create the lengthier text that the snippet expands into? Or is it auto-generated in some way?

cristyclark.bsky.social•89 days ago

Yes, you create all of it.

cristyclark.bsky.social•89 days ago

Here’s an example

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ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

That is awesome - thank you! And it doesn’t drink as much water as GenAI, which some people are proposing we use to write feedback comments - this is a really useful tool.

chriscomerford.bsky.social•88 days ago

I agree with the opt-in tactic, and I also usually make final assessments all opt-in for feedback (ie. all students have to ask for it if they want it - usually very few takers and only one or two who ask for it after the fact).

Not sure how well it would work for first-year since they lack exp.

chriscomerford.bsky.social•88 days ago

I also make the rubric detailed and highlight relevant feedback sections alongside short comments; saves on rewriting the same problem comment fifty times and sets clear expectations on quality needed for specific grades.

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

That seems like a really neat way to do it - so you use the rubric as template, and highlight the bits of wording in the rubric that apply to their assignments, with a brief comment to personalise/ link the rubric wording to their assessments?

chriscomerford.bsky.social•88 days ago

Exactly. Also reduces student comms because it spells out very clearly where the issues and needs for development are.

nicholasbromfi1.bsky.social•88 days ago

My one weird trick is recording my feedback rather than typing. Turnitin has a hard 3 minute limit, so that's what students get. I find I can both say more / be more detailed AND get it done quicker than typing. Ymmv ofc, but works for me

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

That sounds like a great solution - I can imagine it feeling very relational/personalised. Do students like it? Do you just riff into the mike or do you have to script the comments?

nicholasbromfi1.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yeah, I use a script to keep it consistent, but keep the feedback itself v personalised

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nicholasbromfi1.bsky.social•88 days ago

Feedback from students is generally quite positive too. I've been doing this for years, can't recall anyone complaining or noting that they'd prefer it to be written

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

I love this! That seems extremely doable.

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

(YES this means students who need comments might not get them, but that's always true - even if you write 'em, students don't always read. ALSO research shows that markers give harsher comments to students with names at the end of the alphabet: less tired markers = more equitable marking!)

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•89 days ago

I was going to introduce something like this until a colleague dissuaded me with exactly this argument. But true enough that many who most need the feedback won't read it even if I give it. I don't mark alphabetically though, so the Z-last-names of this world maybe have less to worry about with me!

cameronpat.bsky.social•89 days ago

I used to mark from the top to bottom of the assignment box, so from submitted closest to the deadline through to earliest. This meant I usually saw the worst dross first and the best assignments last.

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•89 days ago

The number of extensions nowadays means I've found the "hour before the deadline" cluster smaller than it was, often with a surge of good essays 5–7 days after the original due date. That said, even without checking timestamps I can usually tell when I've got to those submitted just before deadline

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

Oh well done on not marking alphabetically! Some good alternative ways of focussing/targetting feedback in this thread.

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•89 days ago

I usually mark in order of submission, although in the past I've asked them to specify their topic in the file name so that I can mark all the essays on a single topic together. I might bring that back, I really liked it each year I did it. Not sure why I stopped!

drjpersian.bsky.social•88 days ago

I mark the onesI think might be good first, just to start well 😁

kelittlejohn.bsky.social•87 days ago

I do the same - it helps morale with a mountain of marking ahead

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•88 days ago

I sometimes save ones I think might be good for when I need a morale booster, but I’ve found that risky—almost a jinx it is below their usual quality

lucyelm.bsky.social•88 days ago

I do different things on different days as I feel. Sometimes it’s by submission (first or last), sometimes it’s by name, sometimes I pick randomly. Chaotic but I feel better now that I’m not adding a later letter last name disadvantage haha

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yeah I sometimes shuffle it up a bit like that too, especially when I’m marking a large enough subject to have a noticeable “hour before the deadline” cluster. I’d say 80% this year was order of submission and the rest shuffled

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

Oh I did that for a while, and agree - it was more enjoyable, less whiplashy. Maybe because it’s a bit more like class discussion? (I am also thinking about how assessment and learning can be made to flow into each other better)

turner-research.bsky.social•88 days ago

You speaking from experience Willis?! 😂

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

IT’S POSSIBLE 😇

turner-research.bsky.social•88 days ago

I can relate!

kcdavis.bsky.social•89 days ago

I'm pre-service, so just genuinely curious if you think some students are more inclined to empathetically say no because they are concerned about their overworked teachers?

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

I don't know! That's something I've thought about (& I worry about equity - would women & working-class students feel less "entitled" to feedback?) I try to mitigate against that in my framing ("I love giving feedback, it's the most important part of my job, but I want to use my time effectively")

kcdavis.bsky.social•89 days ago

Oh, I like that you emphasize your love for it. Hopefully you're right and that does enough to help all students understand your intent. Thank you for your "trick."

cernoakes.bsky.social•89 days ago

I have a document with pre-written comments for common issues that I copy-paste from that includes links to university resources so I can direct students to stuff that can develop their skills. I’m hoping it encourages them to look at and use those resources!

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

Yes, that is genius! Feedback as a just-in-time/at-elbow support - the resources are always there but the feedback is hopefully the prompt for them to consult.

sarahmay1.bsky.social•89 days ago

I used to do a reverse of the timing. Everyone got short structured comment (a strength, something to work on, 3 bullet points to improve) people I thought would benefit from more, including notes in the text, an offer to do so if they asked. Had a handful ask and it was helpful

kris-inwood.bsky.social•89 days ago

I do something like this for a class in which most students are graduating and only a minority are still concerned to build the kind of skills and knowledge I can provide.

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

That’s excellent - I like the “strength/needs work/ 3 things to improve” framework & have used something similar. I like the idea of flipping the timing, too - I can’t help feeling a BIT bad about just not providing comments! Not sure whether that’s just habit, or genuine equity concerns…

sarahmay1.bsky.social•89 days ago

It's challenging, of course it requires students to have the confidence to take you up on the offer. Even if you work through term on building trust with them, there will be some who'd like comment but can't face asking. It's not perfect. Marking was a key reason for my leaving academia. Seriously

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

I absolutely believe you about marking - it’s such an ongoing stress/wicked problem/ workload burden! Every time I’ve talked to a senior/pre-retirement scholar who’s gone research-only I’ve asked if they miss teaching & every time they’ve said yes but it’s worth it because they don’t have to mark.

stuartbarber.bsky.social•88 days ago

This isn't really answering your question but to get maximum benefit from written feedback for written work I provide feedback a day or so before the grade is provided, big change in students actually reading feedback.

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

I've heard that! Glad to hear it works in practice, it sounds like a really smart idea.

kbneal.bsky.social•89 days ago

* Make nominating one thing they are seeking to improve a requirement of the assessment, & focus feedback on that;
or
* Ask students to submit a self-assessed rubric with the assessment, & focus on elements *they* pick out as problems, or areas where they have over- or underestimated themselves.

emily-fitzgerald.bsky.social•88 days ago

I’ve done self assessment for group projects both as a student and a marker, where we/they also assessed the others in the group, which I found super useful.

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

I LOVE this. That’s so smart! It’s embarrassing to me how often I don’t think of “ask the students” and it’s almost always the right thing to do. How have you found this works out in practice? Do you understand what the students are asking for & is it manageable in terms of time?

kbneal.bsky.social•89 days ago

I find it works well, especially if tutorials regularly touch on skill development. This helps frame assessment as a personal learning opportunity and also generates a shared language for expressing goals. Since those goals tend to cluster around a few key areas it's usually possible to build...

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yes, that makes sense - that idea of a shared language for expressing goals was what I was groping towards. I am really loving this approach!

kbneal.bsky.social•89 days ago

a standard response bank that can then be tweaked to the individual. But also, since the goal is just to focus on improving *one* thing, you don't have to use lots of time on noting other points that *could* use it (which can maybe form part of a class wide "common issues" debrief / doc instead)

kbneal.bsky.social•89 days ago

I've really liked using the nominating idea. It seeds the idea that feedback is *for them*, put *students* in control of it, and encourages goal formation and reflection on the mechanisms of improvement. Just generally excellent for a growth mindset & student agency.

lucyelm.bsky.social•88 days ago

I actually have a vague recollection of having to do that at one point in undergrad - might have been one of your units

kbneal.bsky.social•88 days ago

Ha! Probably

drjessc.bsky.social•88 days ago

I do this with my participation. Because we can't really mark participation, I turn it into a participation reflection framed as a professional performance review where they identify what they want to improve about their studies at a mid-sem milestone, then reassess at the end.

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

Oh I love this, especially the alignment with performance reviews. Do you find it dovetails well with other, more subject-specific assessments?

drjessc.bsky.social•88 days ago

It does in that it promotes a professional mindset toward their studies so they approach, for example, essays in a different way. I know that sounds really utilitarian, but that mindset builds confidence in their growing expertise on a topic and a feeling of control over their skills and learning.

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yes, that sounds great - that's what assessment should be about! Growing and then showcasing expertise, and experiencing themselves as improving their skills and understanding. 😍

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•88 days ago

We are neither allowed to set a participation mark nor have attendance requirements (be that in person or watching the recordings). Could this work in that sort of setting? Because even if I set something similar, I am confident some students still won't show up

drjessc.bsky.social•88 days ago

I think it could b/c the trick is that you're not technically assessing their participation but rather their reflection. However, I do work it so their mark is dependent upon how much they did show up. e.g. they are required to contribute to 6/10 seminars. If they only do 3/6, their max mark is 50%.

drjpersian.bsky.social•88 days ago

so it's still requiring participation but folded into a reflection assessment?

kbneal.bsky.social•88 days ago

Yeah I think it still works, because it gets students thinking about their study as personal development more than pure box ticking. Some people don't turn up no matter what; that's their choice & *even* those students get something out of this reflection if they do it.

drjessc.bsky.social•88 days ago

This is very true. Even slack students are encouraged to take accountability for their studies in this process. I also learn A LOT about them and their lives, and you get much more interesting feedback about how the course really is being experiences than from SETs.

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•88 days ago

What do they even say, though? "I didn't come to class and I haven't watched any lectures or looked at any of the readings. Maybe I'll do that in coming weeks"?

kbneal.bsky.social•88 days ago

great idea!

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

Yes to all of this - putting students in charge! This is also a theme in @rmforsyth.bsky.social’s excellent book which I finished today - how to make sure feedback lands/ is actionable for students. She cites a brilliantly titled paper “it’s useful, but I wouldn’t use it” which I’m going to read

rmforsyth.bsky.social•89 days ago

Definitely a factor in designing feedback scalably! https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03075079.2015.1130032 by Naomi Winstone et al (can't find them on Blue Sky)

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

Amazing, thank you for the link! I am obsessed with usability at the moment even though (as a reception scholar) I know you cannot control or predict interpretation, especially at scale

kbneal.bsky.social•88 days ago

This from the abstract nails one of the pillars of my feedback philosophy: "training students to be proactive receivers of feedback." ❤️

kbneal.bsky.social•88 days ago

📌

ebrandom.bsky.social•89 days ago

Yes! I do this now, after a good number of students said they absolutely never looked at these comments, only the final grade, and I get like 1 student a semester who requests full comment.

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

It's such a heartbreaking waste! In the old paper days I would have a tower of uncollected essays that represented a full week of my life. Some people give group feedback BEFORE the assessment is due ("here's the main mistakes last year's cohort made") and I like this as a combo move.

lauraskh.bsky.social•89 days ago

Ooh, that's cool! My submission advice definitely has past mistakes etc in mind, but I wonder if it may be useful to more explicitly frame it like this 🤔☺️

ikax.bsky.social•89 days ago

I know! I haven’t tried it but am intrigued

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•89 days ago

Yeah I've taken to giving advice before submission with the most common errors from the previous year. It's interesting which pitfalls people then avoid, and which ones persist year on year...

kbneal.bsky.social•89 days ago

I *still* have a filing cabinet draw of my own annotated essays from the *cough* 1990s...

kbneal.bsky.social•89 days ago

(I guess this might be one of the tells I was headed for academia)

drdrehistorian.bsky.social•89 days ago

Hah, yes, I have most of my old papers too. The ones I don't have are those that requested a postage-paid envelope if I wanted the essay returned. I was eye-wateringly poor; it was literally an expense I couldn't afford. But if they were available to collect at the faculty office, in I went!

ikax.bsky.social•88 days ago

I don’t think I ever saw that request for a postage-paid envelope! That’s an equity red flag for sure, literally having to pay for feedback. I wonder if it was someone’s attempt to cut down on writing comments?