First, I'm skeptical that men are truly hearing this in the wild, I think they're mostly seeing it in viral clips shared by right-wing news sites. Second, as an electoral matter, what are Dems supposed to do about it? Constantly scold their own voters on their word choice? bsky.app/profile/wald... - ThreadSky

michaelhobbes.bsky.social • 129 days ago

First, I'm skeptical that men are truly hearing this in the wild, I think they're mostly seeing it in viral clips shared by right-wing news sites.

Second, as an electoral matter, what are Dems supposed to do about it? Constantly scold their own voters on their word choice?
https://bsky.app/profile/waldo42.bsky.social/post/3laehvbojpp22

Reposted from Waldo

Democrats don't, but 20 year old women that identify with them do. Those gen Z men shifting to Trump hear the term A LOT, many are leaning into it.

Its a really bad phrase that has gotten out of hand online.

Comments

bakedhoney.bsky.social•129 days ago

Republicans are not accountable for anything a gop representative says but democratic politicians are responsible for all of the words of all of their constituents.

casersatz.bsky.social•129 days ago

"I have this amazing device in my pocket which will show me the opinion of anyone on the planet. Some of them might say things that I don't like. Now tell me: what are you going to do about that?"

tfox.bsky.social•129 days ago

Whether or not men hear it directed at them, women and other men see the viral content and think about it constantly, looking for it around them. This creates an expectation that dudes are very likely to create a scene at any moment, rather than just be chill - as almost all men usually are.

tfox.bsky.social•129 days ago

I think if there's one thing we could do to simultaneously relax extreme messaging on the right, encourage optimism on the left, and improve behavior across the board - it would be to lean into the carrot and take the stick off the table. Amplify the good examples, stop broadcasting every misstep.

danroyal.bsky.social•129 days ago

Honestly this discussion is really moot until someone can point to polling that shows this was a driving. Unless this is somehow what voters meant when they listed economics and immigration as their top issues?

danmitchell.bsky.social•129 days ago

This is like when people say the Democrats lose because of "defund the police." A very smart journalist I know said that to me recently. Almost no Dem politicians want to defund the police, and most have been loudly against it.

raenpayne.bsky.social•129 days ago

Even California couldn’t be bothered to vote against enslavement of prisoners, sadly. The belief that dems are for defunding the police is laughable.

battynatty.bsky.social•129 days ago

Also zero police have been defunded

waldo42.bsky.social•129 days ago

"Constantly scold their voters on word choice."

This is a thing, yes. There was a lot of scolding regarding words regarded as derogatory, and the right will never forget this outrage (see the N word for details, or slightly more recently, F word).

stayathomecommie.bsky.social•129 days ago

So we should treat 23 year old women who say “toxic masculinity” to describe their experiences like they’re using the n-word? So the men they’re reacting to who hate them maybe someday vote dem?

stochasticooze.bsky.social•129 days ago

My favorite example of this is them creating bizarre scenarios where the only way to avert a mass-casualty disaster is to say a slur and Republicans being outraged over LLMs saying it still wasn't acceptable to say them.

gwiggs.bsky.social•129 days ago

What fucking planet do you live on

waldo42.bsky.social•129 days ago

One in which the N word was commonly heard in polite conversation when I was young, and a concerted effort, political in origin, to scold use of the word has resulted it the near complete disappearance of its use.

gwiggs.bsky.social•129 days ago

And you think that came from the Democrats telling everyone to stop saying the N word, instead of broader cultural change that political parties simply followed?

stochasticooze.bsky.social•129 days ago

I've occasionally seen it used on social media in contexts that didn't really make sense

But like you said that's not exactly an electoral matter

princeofdorne.bsky.social•129 days ago

Hit dogs hollering

cynbelterreus.bsky.social•129 days ago

THIS, where and who they are hearing it from is almost certainly right wing media and shit.

jgcrocke.bsky.social•129 days ago

I heard terms like this in the wild when I was a young man and it made me reflect on aspects of masculinity that are indeed toxic. “In the wild” is actually much better as a context to hear this than in viral clips bc there’s a chance it comes from someone you like and respect.

toastyraptor.bsky.social•129 days ago

Right. When I think of "toxic", I think of family-ingrained personality traits that are eerily close to psychopathy.

Work until you cant, express no feelings, become the controlling factor, etc. All the "traditional family values" that were beat into my head as a child by the republican cultists.

seentoomuch.bsky.social•129 days ago

And left unasked in the quote post, what behaviors are these men hearing it about? What exactly are they, or the people it's being used about, doing that's causing them to hear it?

It's always assumed to be an overreaction in these stories.

nefariousnautilus.bsky.social•129 days ago

We have to somehow propagandize the opposite ideology, but the other is so insidious.

worknowitzki.bsky.social•129 days ago

Honestly isn't that a great idea? What does it cost you? Swing at the people that median voters don't like over word choice! There are no policy ramifications and it might win you votes.

bagofbleeps.bsky.social•129 days ago

The entire idea of chasing the median voter utterly fails when one side is insane.

Promising to be only half as insane as the other guy is stil insane.

worknowitzki.bsky.social•129 days ago

You need to take some time to think about the fact that the "insane" side just won a pretty sweeping victory.

It's not that you're wrong - it's that the things you and I find insane aren't reaching or persuading tons of voters.

bagofbleeps.bsky.social•129 days ago

It's why if they are insane, we should be sane. Explicitly making the difference, instead of meeting halfway.

worknowitzki.bsky.social•129 days ago

The example of this I just realized is Project 2025. Trump did exactly what I am suggesting. "I don't know those people, that's not my plan, I've never read it." It's all lies, but it was politically useful and now he gets to be the President. And do Project 2025.

lenoxus.bsky.social•129 days ago

Different rules apply to Trump there

benapplegate.com•129 days ago

There are absolutely policy ramifications to ceding decisions about the language we use to describe the world to the handful of rich lunatics who own the news and social media.

dragoonscene.bsky.social•129 days ago

Not sure lack of control is a good defense given that liberals said this exact thing about Bernie, i.e. that he was responsible for his supporters’ utterances — apparently Warren held the snake emojis against him.

lebrownlow.bsky.social•129 days ago

you know what’s worth than hearing the phrase toxic masculinity? Toxic masculinity.

michaelhobbes.bsky.social•129 days ago

This one is wild because "institutional racism" is the most individually exonerating way to talk about it! It's literally "you're not racist, the systems are racist" — and Fox et al still recast it as a personal attack.

You cannot stop bad faith attacks with better terms.
https://bsky.app/profile/robware.bsky.social/post/3laei6qs5u72b

jaspie13.bsky.social•129 days ago

This is all underpinned by the idea that the American people will not just vote for what’s right. We have to cater to their every terrible instinct to trick them into it.

kurodzuchi.bsky.social•129 days ago

Mmmmph, yeah. 'Institutional racism' was exactly the point the conversation ran aground the last time I was trying to talk politics with my extremely boomer dad. He instantly took it to 'minorities get to decide what's bigoted, and who's good or not, and that means he doesn't get a say." 🙄

everwich.bsky.social•129 days ago

Ask him what he thinks about minorities not getting a say on the effect of how people treat them. Jesus christ

kurodzuchi.bsky.social•129 days ago

He thinks everybody cuts them a lot of slack already, including, I guess, his mixed-Asian daughter.... we're not close, and I guess I haven't done a great job of conveying my day to day experience to him. But it's hard to get motivated to try.

everwich.bsky.social•129 days ago

Sure. I hope it didn’t come across as castigating you.

kurodzuchi.bsky.social•129 days ago

Nah, I really wish I'd been able to find a way to put it that he'd actually listen to.

schwartzmatt81.bsky.social•129 days ago

The problem is, there are so many GD “low info” voters. Abortion and marijuana consistently run ahead of the party that actually supports these things. I don’t know how you square that circle.

eurobubba.bsky.social•129 days ago

One thing to consider is that in our system as it exists, for people who don’t particularly enjoy politics for its own sake, there’s not much payoff beyond a personal sense of moral rectitude to becoming “high information.” (People “should” do it anyway as a matter of civic responsibility, but…)

schwartzmatt81.bsky.social•129 days ago

I really think that the “choose your own adventure” nature of how information is disseminated is a problem, but I don’t think it’s particularly high information to know which issues are supported by which parties.

eurobubba.bsky.social•129 days ago

You’re probably not going to shame people into voting the way you want though. (I’m not saying trumpies shouldn’t be ashamed; they absolutely should be but probably never will.)

everwich.bsky.social•129 days ago

As we see in NYC, that is biting voters in the ass. Adams is immensely unpopular for reasons that were entirely predictable three years ago. Not sure if people will change their media habits because of this though.

eurobubba.bsky.social•129 days ago

Real democracy has to involve more than voting for Coke or Pepsi every few years and maybe donating a little time or money to a campaign. Citizens need an ongoing, practical and meaningful way to participate in decisions that affect them. (And calling your rep’s office ain’t it.)

schwartzmatt81.bsky.social•129 days ago

I don’t know what the answer is, but with billions of dollars spent and campaigns going on for nearly a year, you would think that some things would be known. I’m not doing research on the county coroner race and I only recognize my state reps name from their flyers,

eurobubba.bsky.social•129 days ago

Maybe this year it was Pepsi versus some weird radioactive orange soda. Still voters are just consumers, not active citizens.

troyliss.bsky.social•129 days ago

The phrase I picked up from @alexandraerin.com is “you can’t withhold ammunition from the bullet factory.” You can’t look for the perfect phrase that no one can be offended by, because what they find offensive are the underlying concepts.

silvermansecurity.bsky.social•129 days ago

This is what the GOP & conservatives claimed for years we should be focusing on. That the issue wasn't the small number of individual extremists, but the institutions. This, of course, absolved actual extremists. The minute the GOP/conservatives got the shift they asked for, the moved the goalposts.

edburmila.bsky.social•129 days ago

Did you ever do a George Lakoff episode of Books Could Kill? If not, do one and have me on. God I hate that fucking book.

mattferrel.bsky.social•129 days ago

Which book?

benfields.net•129 days ago

read this skeet, now all I can think of is an elephant. thanks.

kakotechnia.bsky.social•129 days ago

That’s the one that permanently split rhetoric and linguistics (derogatory) in my mind

saltyjustice.bsky.social•129 days ago

I second this but Ed, you need to promise to keep the guano island talk to 15 minutes or less.
Note: Violate this promise please.

ejmaron.bsky.social•129 days ago

Second this. Michael is notorious for hating guano stuff. (He then did an entire episode of Maintenence Phase involving guano stuff)

cookeagain.bsky.social•129 days ago

Where can I hear the guano island talk?

lilymarswrites.bsky.social•129 days ago

It would be so much easier to communicate with them if they made an attempt to understand parts of speech.

blitzthedragon.bsky.social•129 days ago

For what it's worth, I instantly discount the opinion of anyone with the wire globe emoji in their handle and/or bio.

courtcritic.bsky.social•129 days ago

I mean, unless you're in charge of the institution and you make it your life's work to preserve the racism inherent in it, like an originalist "Justice."

dwrutledge.bsky.social•129 days ago

What you feel if someone says “deep state” to you is what they feel if you say “systemic racism” to them. They feel like DEI programs are like the equivalent of shooting up a pizza place. I’m not saying that we should capitulate. Really they need to wake the fuck up.

dingokayfabe.bsky.social•129 days ago

Yeah I mean of course that’s kind of the point that there’s a whole propaganda machine prompting people to react that way. If you stop talking about one issue, they’ll just point the propaganda machine at something else.

dingokayfabe.bsky.social•129 days ago

Better not to fight on the terrain conservative propagandists choose, you know? That doesn’t mean you surrender, it does mean you don’t counterattack at the exact same spot they just attacked

benfields.net•129 days ago

almost like they should be a state of being awake, like to be awake to the actual state of things. There must be a word for this, surely

everwich.bsky.social•129 days ago

The painful thing is that a lot of people are going to read that and have no idea what you’re referring to. Another demonstration on the way the GOP perverts our language to screw us.

eurobubba.bsky.social•129 days ago

“They need to wake the fuck up” is not wrong but it surrenders all agency to the marching morons and their string-pullers. Instead, “we” need to devise ways to wake them up.

athenae.bsky.social•129 days ago

I mean they do that already to women saying things like "I would like to not get beaten and raped if you please."

lilbrownbat.bsky.social•129 days ago

Mmhmm. They lost their entire shit over women choosing the bear.

rosamoonie.bsky.social•129 days ago

I also wonder if when they are hearing the term in the wild or on their media sources of choice, are they actually hearing it used to describe a thing or just hearing people complain about the spectre of it being used? Many probably have LITERALLY never heard it outside of the discourse against it.

dreamweasel.bsky.social•129 days ago

See also: “birthing people”, “Latinx”

pokepocalypse.bsky.social•129 days ago

I tell you what; I heard this term from my MOTHER, in the late 1970's. (she was special ❤️). She explained the context: it wasn't about me being inherently bad by being masculine. It was that when that becomes an excuse to treat others poorly, it's "toxic".

It's just common decency.

pokepocalypse.bsky.social•129 days ago

What really did me harm was my older (asshole) brother and his group of friends giving me constant shit for not being "masculine enough" (for them).

10 years of therapy to figure THAT out. THAT is how I became secure in my masculinity.

pokepocalypse.bsky.social•129 days ago

The problem with the term "toxic masculinity" is that if you don't have this context - it's easy to be shaped into a personal attack, by opportunists like Steve Bannon. Then you end up with "Proud Boys".

nattyice.bsky.social•129 days ago

You should see the kinds of posts over on the other place that have 30m views today

jalixe.bsky.social•129 days ago

Pretty much, they just watch clips of it played repeatedly by RW influencers. Even if you stop using those terms they'll still think that you're a purple haired communist

metasynthesis.net•129 days ago

If you're going to go into a whole thing about it being just right-wing propaganda, how do you explain:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22toxic+masculinity%22+site%3Asubstack.com&t=fpas&ia=web

metasynthesis.net•129 days ago

And that phrase is just one part of a whole memeplex: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/matt-yglesias-considered-as-the-nietzschean

ecarney.bsky.social•129 days ago

Look, it's only natural for young men to hear phrases that annoy them and then change all of their opinions about civil rights, the economy, foreign policy, history, and the basic structure of government.

brawnvivant.bsky.social•129 days ago

We can debate whether it's actionable but that phrase has been widely used by progressives on social media the last few years and very online young men absolutely encounter it in the wild.

dreamweasel.bsky.social•129 days ago

So what would you propose the Democrats do about it

drkimberlyd.bsky.social•129 days ago

As an older woman, I've unexpectedly faced toxic men at the gym and while shopping recently. The term "toxic" resonates with me and it feels condescending to have my choice of words scrutinized. I can only imagine the challenges younger women face in similar situations today.

onefeincat.bsky.social•129 days ago

Yeah, because if there's one thing the Dems could do to fix their image among right-wingers as pedantic woke-scolds, it's scolding _more_ people. That'll show 'em.
Do these people even hear themselves?

jsidewinder.bsky.social•129 days ago

And isn't criticizing apathetic voters about their choice of wording one of the huge complaints from these "moderate" dem types? Calling Trump a fascist somehow alienated voters but calling dem voters out for calling out Trumpers is fine? Why are we the only ones held to this standard?

pokepocalypse.bsky.social•129 days ago

It's unfair in the sense that: you can make the case that Biden stuttered, and didn't actually call Trump supporters "garbage" - but more importantly, Trump called Harris/Biden supporters garbage on multiple occasions at various rallies. Also called us demonic. And worse. Called immigrants "animals"

meaboyer.bsky.social•129 days ago

This makes the most sense to me...

pokepocalypse.bsky.social•129 days ago

Yeah, and they hear "white privilege" - and suddenly it's a personal attack.

infomercial.bsky.social•129 days ago

Exactly. I work in a VERY liberal field and the vast majority of my co workers are liberal women and I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard the phrase "toxic masculinity." It's an internet phenomenon but not something most men encounter offline at all

jonbecker.bsky.social•129 days ago

They are hearing it "in the wild" if by "in the wild" we mean the Barstool/Rogan world.

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