I’m really sick of responses to my tweets about how noncitizens are vulnerable telling me that citizens are also vulnerable, especially responses citing the attack on birthright citizenship — something that is taking L after L in the courts. (1/2)
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If I understand you correctly, my response would be that they are doing X to see how far they can push Y. Correct me if I am wrong. I'm always willing to learn.
I think that’s one possible interpretation, but personally, I try to steer clear of making characterizations about intention in general, and especially when we’re talking about institutions — where different factions/interests may disagree on strategy or even end goal. 1/2
See, for example, the response to the news about the Salvador flights landing after the court order. Some in WH said “yes we welcome this fight with the courts.” Others said “no of course we didn’t violate anything.” That tells us there’s a split in strategy re courts and law.
This administration in run by criminals, they won't have any qualms about abducting a US citizen if they want to regardless of what the courts say. Even if it's sorted out eventually harm would still have been done. It's great the courts are objecting to this but enforcing it is a different animal.
Yes. And if there were reports of the administration doing anything to implement that EO, I wouldn’t be saying “that can’t be true because it would be illegal.” But there aren’t, so I’m saying there aren’t. I’m not saying there won’t be. But I think that knowing what’s happening now matters!
If you want this to stop, it's prudent get more people aware of it and communicating that to citizens helps make that more likely. You're splitting hairs about timing and it's coming off like you're minimizing.
I truly don’t think that “this thing is happening, that thing isn’t happening and may or may not happen in future” is splitting hairs about timing. I think the difference between happening and not happening is more important than the desire to predict the future.
Citizens ARE vulnerable to rendition free of due process, though. How could citizenship protect you if you aren't entitled an opportunity to assert citizenship as a defense? You might be able to flag the right people in El Salvador but I'd say a deal of harm is already done at that point
I’ll change my tune if actual policy changes. But for now, please understand that responding to “they are doing X” with “and they could in future do Y, if the status quo changes” is at BEST a distraction from X and at worst actively misleading people about the status quo.
The number one thing I miss about twitter is reply handling which was much better at reducing low quality replies. Feels like there’s an opportunity to make life better for people with larger accounts.
(Rather: if people were _actually_ saying “they could in future do Y” it wouldn’t be misleading; what they’re actually doing is saying “they are doing Y” when what they MEAN is “they could in future do Y if the status quo changes.”)
I get where you're coming from. I get response like that, too, & also a more doomerist version. Like when I post about something happening as a result of climate change that people could speak out about, & I get replies of "We're all fucked" or "Humans are evil."
I've seen many posts on BSky lately shaming a cohort of liberals for having some kind of opinion, saying it's the "wrong" opinion. For one, in many cases I've never actually seen these straw men, but I would also say this kind of discourse is itself just as much of a distraction from the key issues.
I get where you are coming with this, and I have a hard time with people e.g. flapping their arms about state House bills that are *introduced*, but it seems very difficult to navigate given the amount the current Admin, uh, pushes the envelope.
I'm really starting to lose my mind about this stuff. People don't seem to understand how tone-deaf it sounds to say "if they can do it to these people they can do it to you" because no, they can't. They attack vulnerable people, that's the point.
If you are not a billionaire oligarch or a hateful, ignorant follower, then they consider you vulnerable. I think that's their point.
I understand Dara's frustration, but the best way to get people to wake up is to remind this will affect THEM soon, not that their neighbors are disappearing today.
I mean certainly they would HATE someone like me in principle. Am I at risk for deportation? No, no I am not. That’s the whole point. People like me should NOT pretend this is about us.
Yeah. And like, sometimes I think what’s meant is “either we’re a country that does X or we’re not” — which is true and important. (The responses to the arrest of Rumeysa Ozturk have generally been along these lines, which is good.)
Not sure how it is tone deaf. You do realize 30% of the country is actively cheering it on and gleeful it is happening? If it can't happen to them then they sleep securely at night. You really think it is "tone deaf" when disappearances start to say "don't worry, it will never happen to you."
I guess? If what you're suggesting is that this will strike fear into the hearts of people who have supported this kind of thing? That WOULD be good. I just don't think that will happen. And I don't think RHETORICALLY that's what's happening.
It's not people trying to WARN complacent GOP voters or whatever. It's people trying to join an oppressed group because it's dramatic and stirring. It's stealing valor, essentially.
Ok good point, but I am INFURIATED that no one seems to care, so something has to happen. What Democrat is currently talking the most sense and making the most noise about the treatment of immigrants by ICE, because so far the silence is deafening. Far too many see it as a political loser.
Ruben Gallego, the future of the Democratic party when it comes to immigration, says talking about the things happening to non-citizens is a "political trap", precisely because people believe they are 100% safe.
True.
All the (legal) immigrants who voted Repub of course didn't think it would happen. And they were most likely only thinking about it not happening to themselves, and were not thinking about it happening to their *brothers*.
Yeah this is the limited subset of people whom the “it could happen to YOU” framing applies to. But they may not need to hear that at this point. (And probably don’t want to hear it from US regardless.)
I mean listen. “Citizens aren’t vulnerable” is at best an un-nuanced take. “People don’t understand which citizens are vulnerable and why” is an absolutely accurate take. Where illegal deportation is widespread, citizens of color with barriers to advocating for themselves are absolutely vulnerable.
The status quo doesn’t have to change for that to be true because it’s always been true. It’s just a lot more true now because there is a lot less concern about following the law and a lot more process-free deportation.
With respect, I disagree with the implication that deportations of citizens have always been widespread, so I do in fact think that’d mean a change to status quo. I hear what you’re saying, but I think it’s about probability and I’m trying to say as explicitly as possible I’m not making predictions.
I did not say deportation has always been widespread. But it has always happened. I do not think it's a prediction to say that certain citizens are currently more vulnerable than in the past, I think that's reflective of what the legal community is seeing. But of course others are free to disagree.
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I understand Dara's frustration, but the best way to get people to wake up is to remind this will affect THEM soon, not that their neighbors are disappearing today.
But I should probably pin this: https://bsky.app/profile/daralind.bsky.social/post/3ll7f7pmxfc22ss
If the point of the poem is how scary it is to be last, maybe we can shift attention to protecting who’s first anyway, because of our values.
All the (legal) immigrants who voted Repub of course didn't think it would happen. And they were most likely only thinking about it not happening to themselves, and were not thinking about it happening to their *brothers*.