the thing you could always tell with Penn and Teller is even when they were incredibly wrong it was never out of a desire to inflict cruelty or pain, and once most of the libertarian movement merged with the authoritarian right cruelty was the whole game - ThreadSky

iwriteok.bsky.social • 5 days ago

the thing you could always tell with Penn and Teller is even when they were incredibly wrong it was never out of a desire to inflict cruelty or pain, and once most of the libertarian movement merged with the authoritarian right cruelty was the whole game

Reposted from Nick Land Acknowledgement 🇵🇸🏳️‍🌈

I really do love that Penn Jilette was a lifelong libertarian anarcho-capitalist who was just like "whoops! Yeah, sorry, completely wrong on that one. Bullshit ideology for losers" in 2020. I really do! An inspiring lack of ego on him

Comments

roddith.bsky.social•4 days ago

Penn has always shown respect for people who are actually experts in their field and has never pretended he knows better. To many today think their convictions are better than knowledge.

lawnerd.bsky.social•5 days ago

Wrong-but-sincere I can work with!

It’s wrong-and-disingenuous that has no place in a free society!

dying-robot.bsky.social•5 days ago

turns out back in 2010 all those libertarian Ron Paul guys like Alex Jones were just authoritarians with no access to power

animatewithdermot.bsky.social•5 days ago

Anti-Establishment Establishmentarians.

Wait until you see them in action whey THEY'RE the Establishment.

natebrown.bsky.social•5 days ago

I knew a lot of guys in high school and college who were Ron Paul fans. The way they responded to those racist newsletters he wrote in the ‘70s and ‘80s ended my interest in their ideas. No version of “liberty” that includes government enforcement of racial castes makes sense to me.

natebrown.bsky.social•5 days ago

I probably would have accepted “I used to think that, I was wrong.” But they denied he even wrote these things he obviously wrote and blamed the people pointing it out. Early version of “fake news.” Once I realized a lot of his supporters were fine with those ideas I knew it wasn’t for me.

scabstation5.bsky.social•5 days ago

Penn and Tellers BS, politically incorrect and the dennis miller show were pretty much staples of my childhood media diet.

scabstation5.bsky.social•5 days ago

Its genuinely a surprise I became left wing during the Ron Paul summer of Love.

egofreaky.bsky.social•5 days ago

Perhaps the real issue is so many people insist they're Libertarians when in fact they're actually just gigantically selfish arseholes who look for a philosophy to pretend like they have some kind of actual ethos, and who would have made Ayn Rand a saint if she wasn't one of (((those people)))

panactheos.bsky.social•5 days ago

They were the people I first remember taking seriously the danger of the Anti-vaxx movement, and had a really well-done Bullshit! segment about it.

jeremiahcontent.bsky.social•5 days ago

This thread is therapy because I think about my own libertarian phase and cringe

justinkruk.bsky.social•5 days ago

Covid was the thing that broke the spell. The casinos all started to enforce mask mandates and occupancy restrictions before the government acted and he got a call from the Libertarian party about organizing a protest against it.

justinkruk.bsky.social•5 days ago

I think that's the moment he realized all the other libertarians were just assholes who didn't want to be told no. They didn't have any values beyond the most base self-interest.

zeether.bsky.social•5 days ago

My sister got to see Penn and Teller live and only had nice things to say about them, so it made me happy to know Penn disavowed being libertarian

ramshackleyogurt.bsky.social•5 days ago

Their show Bullshit was influential to me as a teenager. They acknowledge they didn’t always get it right in those episodes too, but they had value.

It helped give me an outlet for frustrations around the scams my mom was constantly falling for like anti-vax, alt medicine and pyramid schemes.

kaitensatsuma.bsky.social•5 days ago

It feels like "Cruelty is the Point" went from being an external diagnosis of these organizations to their Founding Principle.

drbartlette.bsky.social•5 days ago

Or more like, external critics pulled the curtain back, revealing what was the founding principle all along.

jacobian.bsky.social•5 days ago

Penn and Teller were always in the category of "good libertarians" to me. Where I actually think they were just too idealistic and stupid. They were like "Leave everyone alone and every will leave everyone else alone and that's great.

Idiot baby philosophy, but hopeful and based on mutual respect.

matronboy.bsky.social•5 days ago

We undervalue the ability to change one's mind so profoundly.

diamandahagan.bsky.social•5 days ago

It is nice to see the good libertarians finally separate themselves from the nazis in waiting that seem to dominate the group.

bigmamamendo.bsky.social•5 days ago

And I have never once heard Penn argue for why he should be allowed to fuck teenagers. ^_^

captainsidecar.bsky.social•5 days ago

Libertarianism once seemed to include nuance and, importantly, took seriously "do no harm to others" as a basic foundation. It seems now to have been taken over by the "I should be able to do whatever the fuck I want, to whoever I want, without consequence" mentally 15yo faction.

mtsw.bsky.social•5 days ago

the episodes of Bullshit! where they tied themselves in knots because they libertarian ideology take on the issue was clearly wrong were usually the most compelling ones

mtsw.bsky.social•5 days ago

like not compelling on purpose, compelling in a like "you guys clearly know better than you're letting on but are too committed to the libertarian bit" sense

comicgeekpunk.bsky.social•5 days ago

I was a young Libertarian idealist in the 2000’s, because of examples who have split with the party, like Penn and Trey Parker.

In 2014, I developed a saying that I love to say to Libertarians since swinging Socialist:

“I used to be a Libertarian like you. But then I took an arrow to the knee.”

comicgeekpunk.bsky.social•5 days ago

I never hated Social Nets, and have been in support of them. Like you said, Robert, it was the realization that people deserve safety nets and aid. Same with open borders.

Once I realized how many Glenn Becks & Rand Pauls outnumbered the Penns and Parkers, I became disenfranchised with the party.

darkest-timeline.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yeah. They seemed like earnest believers and not self-interested dicks about it.

sickofelon.bsky.social•5 days ago

https://www.fiftyfifty.one/

#Buzzzz

wgren.bsky.social•5 days ago

I didn't see a lot of them, but there seemed to be a lot of smug judgemental cruelty against climate scientists for instance. There was an episode on new age healing where they laughingly said "lets hear from this 'woman'?" and cut to a woman with a shaved head.

delessuno.bsky.social•5 days ago

I suspect one difference between someone who admits they were wrong and someone who doubles down is the person doubling down thinks they benefit in some way from their worldview.

eons89.bsky.social•5 days ago

Looking at you Jesse The Mind Ventura.

shotrob.bsky.social•5 days ago

They are one of those interesting and rare libertarians that honestly have principles.

risslecrisis.bsky.social•5 days ago

The problem is that "no surveillance state", "no foreign wars", "yes civil liberties" was a valid reaction to the W Bush years. The libertarian "do what thou wilt" VS the left's "respect others".

Then we ask for libertarians to respect, not just allow trans ppl, and 90% of them stand with nazis.

drbartlette.bsky.social•5 days ago

The Wiccan Rede is literally "if it HARM NONE, do what thou wilt."

brianedits.bsky.social•5 days ago

The Rede is adapted and changed from a statement in The Book of the Law (the religious text of Thelema), which states "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

That original phrasing is what the poster above is quoting. Not Gerald Gardener's reinterpretation.

occasionallywrong.bsky.social•4 days ago

I read that in the intro of a book. I immediately closed the book and never picked it back up.

drbartlette.bsky.social•4 days ago

You know that Wicca was pretty much entirely formed from a re-imagining adaptation of Thelma? As I recall, Gardner was "licensed" or whatever by Crowley. There's a reason they have so much in common. But they are different paths.

fredgrott.bsky.social•5 days ago

be careful...what the US calls libertarian is NOT Libertarian but just re-hooded plain white racism...

jenpallante.bsky.social•5 days ago

I'd love for them to revisit bullshit with a fresh set of eyes.

And Penn going "yeah libertarianism is bullshit" is on brand at least. "Wait my deeply held belief is wrong and telling people that same thing has been a big part of my public actions. Damnit."

thirrin1.bsky.social•5 days ago

The mark of a real intellect.

obsofdeviance.bsky.social•5 days ago

Plus he likes weird music, like The Residents

https://youtu.be/FFpgUxzuu3Y?si=8HVndMUNEpXizs9k

petefullerga.bsky.social•5 days ago

I had and still have a strong libertarian streak. Much like the “conservatives” of today are total hypocrites to the “values” they claimed for decades the current libertarians are silent if not complicit with the massive power overreach we are seeing.

nickperon.bsky.social•5 days ago

Penn & Teller's BS resonated with me as well when it was on. Thry weren't always right, but I'd call their brand of Libertarianism sane and grounded compared to the bonkers shit that passes for it today.

nickperon.bsky.social•5 days ago

What they believed in was mostly reasonable at the time. The only episodes that were outlandishly wrong (smoking, environmental issues, mostly) was usually progressive and anti-woo anti-snakeoil salesman stuff.

nickperon.bsky.social•5 days ago

Some of the groups they interviewed to support their arguments were pretty cringe though. The Cato Institute? Yeesh, fuck right off with those assholes.

henryfung.bsky.social•5 days ago

Cato is actually leading the charge on calling out the current administration on their immigration bullshit. https://www.cato.org/blog/new-discriminatory-arbitrary-legal-immigration-system-coming

toxicmicroceleb.bsky.social•4 days ago

Cato Institute has op-eds arguing that Enclosure and the Highland/Lowland Clearances were *unfairly maligned* by history. Amazingly bad, bad faith takes.

jordanatthelake.bsky.social•5 days ago

I stopped engaging with them due to the number of bad faith takes they had, but they do get enough ideologues who still come through that you get some well written critiques from the right occasionally.

benhosp.bsky.social•5 days ago

[hot dog guy]

cuibonobaby.bsky.social•5 days ago

Stopped clock.

dubbaewwteeeff.bsky.social•5 days ago

Their work and their discussions of politics always showed passion, integrity, and a deep hatred of misinformation and scams.

It always felt like their hearts were in the right place. I can't think of anyone libertarian or right wing I can say that about today.

vessol.bsky.social•5 days ago

I was a hardcore libertarian for the first half of the 2010s, going to Porcfest multiple years and had like 10k posts on Ron Paul Forum dot com lmao.

Starting around 2015-16 seeing most of the people in that world becoming hardcore fascists and Trump supporters woke up my naive ass to the left

johnsalomon.bsky.social•5 days ago

Wait, what "was"

Oh no

Oh no no no

johnsalomon.bsky.social•5 days ago

Oh whew thank fuck he's alive and didn't get run over by a road grader or some shit.

Don't DO THAT.

sonofagunsmith.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yeah, a bit of sloppy phrasing. I'm pretty sure they're just using it because he used to have those politics, which come out a little at the end of the magic act. (He does a little speech about lying and culpability, and why he chooses to explain the trick.)

nostikvvvibes.bsky.social•5 days ago

The stated dream of their strain of libertarianism was no coercion other than risk so the moral thing was a populace fully educated on the risks.

Unfortunately the dominant strain seemed to be "eugenics by removing warning labels".

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

they were always basically decent guys who got a microphone bigger than they could use responsibly, many such cases, but their issues with secondhand smoke etc came out of a kind of oppositional defiance that was right about 20% more often than it was wrong

korikaanders.bsky.social•5 days ago

Watching Penn and Teller's Bullshit episode on Vaccines as a kid helped inoculate me against vaccine skepticism as an adult and kept me from like.. self hating my autism diagnosis.

billabetimelord.bsky.social•5 days ago

Amy text (holy book, constitution, whatever) will be used horribly by people with malicious hearts and can be used beautifully by people with good hearts.

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

one of the few comforts i have is seeing a handful of the guys i looked up to as a young libertarian kid actually follow their hearts and become better people as they aged. i am thinking of Penn, Jesse Ventura, etc

synthwavekane.bsky.social•5 days ago

I seem to recall the drummer from Rush (the Late Great Neil Peart) had a similar moral trajectory was super into ayn rand and objectism but grew out of it as he experienced life even going so far as to remove rands nod from later releases of 2112

hikeandbikempls.bsky.social•5 days ago

Conversely, seeing the Lew Rockwell crowd go full trump enforces how awful they were and how silly it was to think unregulated corporations are what anarchy is really all about. I’ll never the time I spent reading that drivel back. Oh well, live and learn I guess.

frankie1983.bsky.social•5 days ago

There has always been a duality about libertarianism between what it is and what it’s perceived as being. It advertises as live and let live. What it actually is is a way for rich assholes to be rich assholes but it call it a philosophy. If you ever read mises publication it’s no surprise at all

grumpyrootbeer.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yeah, many male artists and entertainers I admired in my adolescence have proven to be Big Embarrassing Disappointments as I've aged and grown. Some of that is realizing who they always were, some is who they really are finally being revealed (Neil Gaiman a big offender in that latter category).

thepavel.bsky.social•5 days ago

it's almost like they were always the decent people many of us wanted them to be, despite the cesspools some of their ideas attract. it's a nice contrast to see people guided by basic decency over some political ideology or party loyalty.

tantryl.bsky.social•5 days ago

I remember he said the reason there's no episode of Bullshit! was they couldn't make a strong enough argument but it stank of bullshit.

Last I checked he'd switched to a "it's real but the far bigger problem is actually how scary Al Gore was, I will not discuss if it's man made".

tantryl.bsky.social•5 days ago

*"Last I checked" was many years ago, pre-COVID. So hopefully there's been more headway.

brynntannehill.bsky.social•5 days ago

My brother ran as a Libertatian candidate a few times in Arizona. He left the party in 2020 after it went hard right and started getting really racist and favoring enforcing "traditional western values" as a code for "right wing Christianity".

He's an ardent atheist.

mathewforesta.bsky.social•5 days ago

There's always been that strain in it. I'm thinking Rothbard, Ayn Rand here. Deeply bigoted authoritarians. I think the people who actually just wanted to be left alone and alike ditched it when they saw it was all malarky and a con.

mathewforesta.bsky.social•5 days ago

BTW Brynn I read your book on fascism. Taught me a lot. Sorry the election went the way it did and you can't go back to flying. Hope you're staying safe and well.

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

One of my few comforts is listening to Jesse Ventura talk about what a giant piece of shit Hulk Hogan is.

bullgooseparty.bsky.social•5 days ago

That’s my favorite thing ever. When Ventura ran for governor he was very pro union! Rhetorically at least

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

He was organizing a strike before wrestlemania 2 and Hogan snitched. Vince McMahon put the squeeze to the workers before they had a chance to organize.

Ventura got his SAG card but all of those old wrestlers that died too young could have had alot of benefits that mightve changed some fates.

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

This clip he talks about it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hJHrgREqNA&pp=ygUiY2hyaXMgdmFuIHZsaWV0IEplc3NlIHZlbnR1cmEgaHVsaw%3D%3D

rosesinseattle.bsky.social•5 days ago

Also, when Virginia wanted an old confederate flag back that his state won in a battle, he just responded by saying “why, they lost?”

newhousehenry.bsky.social•4 days ago

He fucked over the school system in MN royally but otherwise was a decent governor who pissed off all the right people.

wizardrodeo.bsky.social•5 days ago

I haven't heard enough of this actually so if anyone has like a supercut I could listen to as a little pick-me-up my day could always be made better by people talking shit about Hulk Hogan

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

Last one for real

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hJHrgREqNA&pp=ygUiY2hyaXMgdmFuIHZsaWV0IEplc3NlIHZlbnR1cmEgaHVsaw%3D%3D

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

This is just a great round up of a bunch of weird shitty things he's done. Last I got.

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

Super cut 2

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9R4QtRRbarc&pp=ygUdZXZlcnlvbmUgc2hvb3RzIG9uIGh1bGsgaG9nYW4%3D

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

This is super cut 1 https://youtu.be/9I8lz9OA3eo?si=XHtsXWnRVB9H7cVV

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

This one is an hour, it's not hulk hogan but this is pure chaos. Honky tonk man, Iron sheik and new jack all fucked up. New Jack comes to tears when he talks about Nancy Benoit.

https://youtu.be/Lwmlpjq3W_Q?si=p22e4Yhac0NIg4Wg

420eggman69.bsky.social•5 days ago

Broooo I GOT you. Hol' up. First the BEST one. This whole interview is great btw. Iron shiek starts cussing out his crack dealer cus the dealer didn't want to drive to meet Sheik. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRRHvw0s1Yc&pp=ygUbSXJvbiBzaGllayBzaG9vdCBpbnRlcnZpZXcg

wizardrodeo.bsky.social•4 days ago

Thank you for this, proof that Logging On can be good again

kenmegalopsuxos.bsky.social•5 days ago

Many of the more cosmotarian Reason writers have either abandoned the Ideology or doubled down on how incompatible their views are with the Thiel and Musk brand of oligarchical libertarianism or the Rothbard stuff.

mlyp.bsky.social•5 days ago

give Jesse Ventura a hammer and 5 minutes in a room with Hogan

averagegatsby.bsky.social•5 days ago

I love reading about which wrestlers other wrestlers were scared of, the guys who were legitimately crazy and could actually fight. Something tells me in their primes Ventura would have absolutely mopped the floor with Hogan.

duanerobot.bsky.social•5 days ago

From a similar background, I have similar feeling that I'm super glad Bill Hicks was ALWAYS on the side of the angels. (RIP)

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

i think his heart would've led him in the right direction, had he lived

duanerobot.bsky.social•5 days ago

Other than some jokes that were... of their time... I think his general schtick was most of the way there. When you listen back he holds up a LOT better than his contemporaries.

oksohearmeout.bsky.social•5 days ago

Penn and Teller are who Joe Rogan thinks he is. In reality, he's just too roided up raccoons getting high in a human suit.

averagegatsby.bsky.social•5 days ago

Also, Penn Jellette is an intelligent human. Joe Rogan is a full blown dullard. He doesn't have an original idea or any actual principles.

marionette.bsky.social•5 days ago

The last cogent thought Joe Rogan had was his Grand Canyon/space bit fifteen years ago

baekjesmile.bsky.social•5 days ago

If one is from the Southwest and grew up lower middle class or poor, it's hard not to have a LITTLE bit of a soft spot for ornery libertarian guys because they are just such a part of the scenery in that world. Plus they WILL show you their cool books on old tanks if you give them back unharmed.

dprdonuts.bsky.social•5 days ago

I feel this so hard.

krubuntu.onlydreamsnow.com•5 days ago

They nailed it with vaccines.

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

yeah there was always a fundamental underlying belief that we owe each other certain things by virtue of living in a society together

henryfung.bsky.social•5 days ago

If it wasn't for Jesse Ventura there would not be a train from Minneapolis to the airport.

themamu.bsky.social•5 days ago

Same, the ones I had good instincts on have turned into really cool guys. Penn is a huge advocate for his trans son too

zeinhorn.bsky.social•5 days ago

I didn’t know he had a trans kid! Thank god some people are able to be normal about it, good for him

themamu.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yup Moxie Crimefighter. Following in the magician footsteps too as his father

themidnightoil.bsky.social•5 days ago

Jesse was right on unions in pro wrestling in the 80s, and that piece of scum Hulk Hogan stopped it from happening.

taojonesing.bsky.social•5 days ago

Did you go through an Objectivist phase, too? What turned you away from all that? (I have followed you for years and had no idea of your dark past.)

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

nah just a Heinlein libertarian for a while

taojonesing.bsky.social•5 days ago

There was a moment when I thought of myself as a libertarian, but I was thinking in terms of civil liberties and civil rights for all. When I figured out what libertarianism was as political movement, I dropped that label.

averagegatsby.bsky.social•5 days ago

Same.

chols.bsky.social•5 days ago

I remember up to 2020 I was an avid Reason mag reader. Then they put an op-ed on the front page saying police brutality would be solved by privatizing police, and I was like "wtf no that's insane" and never looked back.

sagastar.bsky.social•5 days ago

did jesse ventura stop being a crank?!

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1577239/

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

he's a harmless crank who knows fascism when he sees it

sagastar.bsky.social•5 days ago

i am always going to think unreality nonsense like this prepped the field for what's happening now.

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

in the sense that humans have always engaged in conspiratorial thinking for the same reasons we are vulnerable to demagogues yes but what you're really saying is "i don't like that Jesse for a small part of the con before he woke up to the bigger one" and i feel like that's pretty forgivable

tamslick.bsky.social•5 days ago

I hadn’t looked at it like this, but he’s right.
https://bsky.app/profile/xiphosb4.bsky.social/post/3lkg3pkofos2g

xiphosb4.bsky.social•5 days ago

Basically in the right circumstances, it can be a gateway drug to better politics and personal growth.

bushinonthescene.bsky.social•5 days ago

One of my favorite BTB moments was when you brought up Ventura’s conspiracy theory about the weather machine that he almost certainly got from an episode of GI Joe.

saltpork.bsky.social•5 days ago

I'm in the same boat and I think the idealism around tech that we're now seeing some of the horrors of is part of that.

I was also part of that same thing and enjoyed Bullshit quite a bit. Oddly I include Weird Al in this group. I've never understood why.

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

honestly don't know that al ever espoused a public political stance but i just can't imagine him embracing cruelty in any form

saltpork.bsky.social•5 days ago

That honestly might be it. Weird Al never struck me as someone who tried to be anything but decent to everyone he dealt with and there is some of that in the 90s/2000s libertarianism. That idea of be decent because you exist, not because some institution told you to do it.

saltpork.bsky.social•5 days ago

I think the biggest issue I have with a lot of what libertarianism has become is that it's not about maximal liberty for people, it's about what fits socially conservative values and like...that is not the most freedom for the most people.

Neither is wage slavery. Neither are tech robber barons.

mostlyharmless.bsky.social•5 days ago

There's right and left libertarianism. The right thinks that money enables them to practice freedom. So to them, regulations on business, even when curbing exploitation, means encroachment on freedom. At least in theory, but most probably don't understand how they get shafted by it.

mrpussy.xyz•5 days ago

ugh I was a libertarian in high school 💀 my lifelong shame

toasty.cx•5 days ago

same tbh but eventually I actually learned the left even existed and went "oh fuck I've been in the wrong boat this whole goddamn time"

grumpyrootbeer.bsky.social•5 days ago

No shame in being a libertarian in high school; the shame is still being a libertarian by your thirties.

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

at the time it was a big step up from Bush Republican

mrpussy.xyz•5 days ago

100%

narcisgoldmund.bsky.social•5 days ago

There was something special around the people who surrounded James Randi (that's how I think of this group). None of them perfect but most of them decent.

m01r4.bsky.social•5 days ago

people can change :)

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

i don't think that baby agrees

m01r4.bsky.social•5 days ago

that baby thinks that guy is a piece of shit, yeah

sophiaflorence.bsky.social•5 days ago

I feel like the existence of the Mises Caucus in the LP and how wildly racist it was really made it clear for a lot of people what they were up against. There were some people trying to build a libertarian socialist caucus in the LP after that but it seemed like it failed entirely.

atearin.space•5 days ago

I always thought it was interesting that there was a libertarian socialist caucus in both the LP and DSA. I often wondered what challenges each one faced within their greater umbrella organization.

sophiaflorence.bsky.social•4 days ago

I knew a lot of folks in both. Maybe I'll drag them on the podcast one day!

carsonenglish.bsky.social•5 days ago

Same. Voted Ventura for gov as a high school senior. Claimed libertarian as a college kid 99-03. Then I encountered the real world.

hikingwithhobos.bsky.social•5 days ago

Who doesn’t love a redemption arc?

gunshowloophole.bsky.social•5 days ago

Giving them a big microphone is actually comedic genius, only one of them even knows how to speak!

lumpblock.bsky.social•5 days ago

The crux of the biscuit w/r/t Rogan. Total lack of understanding of what he was given.

stork-sculpture.bsky.social•5 days ago

And it was a period of "oh well, whatever that was, it doesn't matter that much. Someone else will fix it. Meanwhile, we will get rich doing x thing." The beginning of libertarianism

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

i don't think that's entirely fair. the libertarians were also pro gay rights and ending the war on drugs, well before the former was something the Democratic party embraced. and because of that they played a meaningful role in pushing a lot of young conservative leaning men away from bigotry.

stork-sculpture.bsky.social•5 days ago

Libertarianism is to me kind of a bespoke American version of Marxism is that it fell apart in the real world and its theorists transitioned into practical real world ideologies (In the former, G.A Cohen going from a demsoc into a normie liberal and Genovese from a literal Stalinist to the GOP)

stork-sculpture.bsky.social•5 days ago

I get that. The problem is that libertarianism is the empty quarter in US politics. There are functionally not a lot of people who are socially liberal and economially conservative

stork-sculpture.bsky.social•5 days ago

Not to get too into decadeology here but I think the 90s and the 00s were basically a 20 year decade between the 80s before them and the 10s after

stork-sculpture.bsky.social•5 days ago

There was a 1992-2008 period when it seemed like America would be materially stagnant while gradually more afffluent where young people and media figures built their worldviews on technical optimism and the primacy of self-expression

wrasslor.bsky.social•5 days ago

They did retract that at the Amazing Meeting 7. I think it was 7. It’s on YouTube

vyvyan161.bsky.social•5 days ago

Nah man. Go watch the racist bullshit Bullshit episode where they do "reverse racism" and bring on Chomsky. They were laundering alt right taking points before it was "cool".

You do not, in fact, have to hand it to Penn just cause he does cool magic tricks and wouldn't go full on armband Nazi.

davidwelman.bsky.social•5 days ago

I don't need people to be right all the time as long as they're willing to admit when they are wrong and change course

cliffm85.bsky.social•5 days ago

I used to be a libertarian, mainly because it was faith in the majority of humanity to make the right, empathetic decisions. Then you realize that a good chunk of people aren't empathetic and a good chunk will gladly hurt themselves to not have to be empathetic.

thetechnocracy.bsky.social•5 days ago

From what I've been given to understand, that was also essentially Penn's line of thought.

cliffm85.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yeppers. Met him before and had a chat after his show. I think both of us being Atheists made us want to place our faith other areas, and faith in humanity is beautiful. Reality, however, shows that not ALL of humanity is beautiful and empathetic.

thetechnocracy.bsky.social•5 days ago

I very much like what I've heard of Karl Popper so far, who has a pragmatic approach that focuses more on solving real-world issues through tough compromise, moderation, and a refusal to entertain intolerant viewpoints.

cliffm85.bsky.social•5 days ago

Haven't heard of them, I'll have to do some research! Thanks for directing me to them.

(Btw, just have to say thanks to @bsky.app because it's a joy to get back to conversing with actual kind, intellectual people on social media)

thetechnocracy.bsky.social•5 days ago

Search for Karl Popper and the paradox of intolerance. It helped me to solve an ethical question I'd been wrestling with for a while.

toocubtobear.bsky.social•5 days ago

When I was a teen/young adult I got into New Atheism and was obsessed with Penn & Teller’s Bullshit. In hindsight it’s scary how easy it was to turn off my brain and believe everything they said just because I trusted them on one issue. But I’m glad they didn’t become right-wing grifters

ellieatf.bsky.social•4 days ago

I never knew he'd renounced his libertarianism. Pretty cool yo.

iwriteok.bsky.social•4 days ago

over masking specifically!

ellieatf.bsky.social•4 days ago

Masking seems to be what prompted it (based on my intense research of his Wikipedia page) but he seems to have gone full lefty pinko.

briansiano.bsky.social•4 days ago

Had lunch with them once in the 1990s. Liked them immensely. Had the very strong sense that they didn't share the worst motives of libertarians I'd encountered elsewhere.

rethread.bsky.social•5 days ago

Both very kind people.

animationtriad.bsky.social•5 days ago

A few years ago, I got to see Penn and Teller in Vegas. Something I’ve always wanted to do. They did not disappoint. Hearing about this just makes me respect them more.

tierahruinsthings.bsky.social•5 days ago

Reading Penn's book God, no! Really turned me off. Man does not, or did not when he wrote that book, seem to have healthy attitudes towards sexuality and consent

crookeddick.bsky.social•5 days ago

most people don't realize that while Penn was just a libertarian, Teller was actually a full-blown nazi. he just nevsr said anything about it

jgraydingler.bsky.social•5 days ago

Can't say I feel the same. Even 20 years I was put off by their claim to be "skeptics" only for to Penn casually admit they rewrite things until they get the result they want.

That they're aware NOW these things would hurt them personally being why they changed makes them no less self-centered.

jgraydingler.bsky.social•5 days ago

20 years ago*

And I remember long after their global warming episode, Penn was called out in an interview about how it was just lies and he said "Can't we just agree Al Gore is a douche?"

Good on him for realizing he'd get his face eaten too but I'm gonna enjoy blasting it apart in Borderlands. =P

jgraydingler.bsky.social•5 days ago

Didn't know about this one until just now.

Yeah, screw Penn Jillette. Only turning your back on Libertarianism after spending most of your lifetime benefiting from it because you realize it won't benefit you going forward is still a libertarian mindset.

https://bsky.app/profile/snackalgorithm.bsky.social/post/3kjugvailpk2a

lonestartallboi.bsky.social•5 days ago

In that way he's, like, The Mythical Conservative Democrats Have Been Triangulating To for the past decade, it's just that Democrats assumed there were 170 million Penns Jilette rather than one

elljawa.bsky.social•5 days ago

I think there's a big difference between someone who maybe voted for Gary Johnson in 2012 because they hate drone strikes and love gay people and weed, versus most modern libertarians voting for trump. Although every now and then a more classically libertarian candidate gets on a ballot

elljawa.bsky.social•5 days ago

The libertarian candidate for Senate in WI, for instance, was accused by the GOP of being a spoiler candidate and he went off on them that his views were completely incomparable with theirs. Which they seemed to be

thejackalopetx.bsky.social•5 days ago

Penn went from a stock libertarian to thinking Biden was masterfully playing 27d chess. I’m not sure he’s good at understanding politics.

jayphailey.bsky.social•3 days ago

That was a more painful adjustment for me. But eventually you face the truth or you lose yourself.

And now we're seeing dumb-shit ketamine fueled Libertarian shit posting AS A GOVERNMENT and its somehow worse.

chuckgrape.bsky.social•5 days ago

I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I saw the libertarian pilled Bullshit episodes. I've never been a libertarian, so I had no tolerance for that. It took a long time for me to forgive them for having a show where they expose misconceptions while having a political ideology based on them.

fantango.bsky.social•5 days ago

They did not entertain anti-vax paranoia. Feel like that's the event horizon for most of libertartarians

thesunstaresintome.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yeah, I mean I do love them as well, but I remember the episode of Bullshit! where they argued passionately against wheelchair accessibility. The cruelty comes with the territory

boarprince.bsky.social•4 days ago

i think about that episode specifically whenever i think about that show and cringe so hard. as a young athiest trapped in christian schools, i loved Bullshit! back then, but even a teen can see the logic there is...well, bullshit.

mishazgreen.bsky.social•5 days ago

I think about the "I love you dog" sketch, not because they were right about slurs, because they were this close to getting the point that anything can be a slur if said with enough spite. As we would soon see with our carousel of replacements for the N slur that would come in this past decade.

fahk.bsky.social•5 days ago

I grew up in Texas with Libertarian parents on a steady drip of Limbaugh, Liddy, and Fox News. First vote was for W in 04. Leaving the bubble for the real world opened my eyes to the fundamental flaws in a capitalist economy. It's akin to addiction recovery imo.

vaguebiscuit.bsky.social•5 days ago

I think the response to masking during an airborne pandemic was a big wake up call for him too iirc. There's not reason or thought behind the movement, just contrarianism and corporate propaganda

winterhaydn.bsky.social•5 days ago

I was talking to a 'libertarian' 2 days ago who was very much against the Trump/Musk takeover. Like, what?? The class trying to screw us over are as libertarian as they come. I didn't say this to him because I assumed he'd bring up "crony capitalism" fallacy. As if self-interest wasn't the problem.

deijii.bsky.social•5 days ago

Bullshit is a show that has to come back. The current era needs it. We NEED an episode (or two) debunking trans panic, especially

jimbevan85.bsky.social•5 days ago

One of the reasons why I respect them so much. They have humility and are always willing to admit when they're mistaken.

padrigg.bsky.social•5 days ago

I think their vaccine episode on Bullshit told us what we needed to know. They still believed in community caring for each other.

docmcbuggins.bsky.social•5 days ago

I really liked that show Bullshit, and even thought I liked Ron Paul until after the 2012 election. I have finally realized I just didn't like hawkish neoliberal democrats. Good for Penn Jillette for having actual conviction. Thank goodness he hasn't become a politician, it would break him.

mattjgeiger.bsky.social•5 days ago

Goddammit man, you made me think one of them died. I really didn't need that tonight.

dylanreeve.com•5 days ago

Yeah, Penn seems like a genuinely good person. Just had too much faith that others were like him. Which, if true, might make libertarianism vaguely reasonable.

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

i have known several different libertarians who owned planes or boats and regularly used them for disaster relief / to aid migrants etc, and yeah if everyone was like you guys your politics would work

bullgooseparty.bsky.social•5 days ago

I remember hearing an interview with him where he very confidently said that rich people would donate all the money needed for a social safety net. Very naive, but not an asshole.

altairamorbius.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yeah this was me as a teen (and to a certain extent my dad, who was the reason I thought that way as a teen). Basically it was “well, nobody wants to be a total selfish monster, do they? And isn’t racism about wrapped up?”

And then I entered the real world and found out I was very wrong.

schroedinger.bsky.social•5 days ago

I'd frame the self-sorting among self-professed libertarians caused by Trump who were not down with going the fascism path slightly differently, as "well if the only realistic alternative is literal fascism I guess I'll suck it up and support some of this stuff to keep the fascism out".

buckshot.bsky.social•5 days ago

If only the libertarians had used the bears for good!

peachesmchee.bsky.social•5 days ago

I remember an episode of Bullshit about the ADA, and they had the general libertarian complaints about the ADA forcing things on business. And while I totally disagreed with that, it also seemed very clear to me that if everyone was like them, the ADA would have quickly been made redundant.

fortunatessera.bsky.social•5 days ago

This is the reason why most regulations exist- it's very hard to ensure that *everyone* knows what the right thing is and decides to do it. And with the ADA in particular, it's really important that *everyone* does the right thing to ensure a safe and predictable environment for disabled people.

dylanreeve.com•5 days ago

A bit like capitalism in general I guess. People complain about regulations on businesses, which wouldn't be necessary if most companies were chill like small businesses. But they're not. They're "win at all costs" destroyers.

peachesmchee.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yeah, and honestly a lot small businesses are like that too. We need the regs to keep everyone playing fair because too many would take advantage however they could.

dylanreeve.com•5 days ago

Yeah, that's true. Small businesses are often the worst for wage theft and otherwise screwing employees over in small ways.

areimer.bsky.social•5 days ago

There’s a level of naivety that comes with being a Libertarian

wickedmitch.bsky.social•5 days ago

Drew Carey I think was in this category-I think he’s drifted left more recently though but I remember he helped feed workers during the recent WGA/SAG strike.

aurelienmorel.bsky.social•5 days ago

I once watched/listened to Drew Carrey chatting with Craig Ferguson, and Ferguson asking him if he recalled leaving 100$ as a tip for coffee when they were doing the Drew Carrey Show, and Carrey saying he got chased by waitresses a few times because they believed he did it by mistake. He's nice.

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

he's always been the GOAT when it comes to union stuff. absolutely understands solidarity and that his great fortune comes with obligation.

ingforart.bsky.social•5 days ago

don't know how much of it was him but I also keep remembering that though it doesn't have the language, his sitcom had a non-cis character and episodes around that

ingforart.bsky.social•5 days ago

which was I mean pretty good for the time? Like it was from the point of view that trans people get discrimination a lot and it's not a good thing?

strayarc.bsky.social•5 days ago

I can't remember the interview (maybe Maron) but he said that what sold him on TPIR was thinking how good it would feel to give corporate money to regular people for a living. Seems a decent guy.

logan.hater.club•5 days ago

it's very hard to describe to folks far outside the industry what Drew did for everyone other than that he probably straight up saved people's lives

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

inarguably. good guy.

chuckgrape.bsky.social•5 days ago

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I prefer Drew Carey over Bob Barker. Carey doesn't sexually harass the models, he has a warmer demeanor, and he always ends the broadcast by telling the audience how much he cares. Barker was a good host but Carey takes it to another level.

wickedmitch.bsky.social•5 days ago

Libertarianism seems to draw a mix of awful people who see it as a chance to empower their awful behavior and genuinely well-meaning people who think everyone will act like they would in a libertarian society.

ryushinomori.bsky.social•5 days ago

I used to listen to his podcast all the time, idk if he never seemed like he couldn’t go the other way with it. I’m glad it didn’t become some wild double down situation you see with influence

billdozer53.bsky.social•5 days ago

The US libertarian movement is a fetish with individual liberty that ignores the value of shared liberties. It's really tragic.

fast-jortimer.bsky.social•5 days ago

he's a cool guy. saw him at a Q&A once and asked him if he'd [use my phone to] call my friend who was an even bigger fan and he did! talked to him for a couple of minutes

heptaglemious.bsky.social•5 days ago

We don's spend enough time celebrating people whoa re prepared to admit they were wrong.

goosegloriosa.bsky.social•5 days ago

I distinctly remember the episode about nasa and how you could tell their heart wasn’t really into doing libertarian shit to it lol

wickedmitch.bsky.social•5 days ago

This is the POV you get as a libertarian when you realize the ideology of libertarianism is unworkable in reality.

browhocares.bsky.social•5 days ago

Yes. But I think this POV applies to basically every principled conservative ideology that purports to care about people. See, for example, Bill Kristol for the neocons, or the occasional GOP state politician who votes for trans rights, or that guy in WI who changed his mind on assembly bill 104

wickedmitch.bsky.social•5 days ago

That’s fair, basically any conservative or right of center person who realizes the fascist rot in the right has to make the choice to abandon the right or embrace the fascism.

browhocares.bsky.social•5 days ago

The more I think about it, the more it seems to apply to every political ideology. The center of mass of centrist punditry has been excusing fascism to denounce "woke excesses," and the factions of the "left" that are most against "woke" are the ones that are aligning with fascists (e.g. Red Scare)

iwriteok.bsky.social•5 days ago

it's more realizing that a functional safety net is a fundamental prerequisite to any liberty worthy of the name

xjvzmxejgd.bsky.social•5 days ago

Also that libertarian society cannot exist without a government that ensures people are staying in their lane.

In a libertarian government, the EPA would be incredibly powerful. You can do whatever you want with your property, but you can't pollute the river that you do not own.

bcwilson.bsky.social•5 days ago

"there can be no doubt that some minimum of food, shelter, and clothing, sufficient to preserve health and the capacity to work, can be assured to everybody." - Hayek

wickedmitch.bsky.social•5 days ago

Hayek and Friedman both sucked in a lot of ways but their actual opinions on social safety nets were more nuanced than a lot of their followers’.

mirandachats.bsky.social•5 days ago

For me, the break point was acknowledging that kids lack legal agency, and are permanently harmed when parents won't/can't meet their needs. Society needs a framework to ensure kids have access to food, medical care, and education, and protect them from exploitation.

Libertarianism fails that test.

captainhat.bsky.social•5 days ago

That's pretty much what happened to me; I started thinking about liberty in real-world consequential terms and it completely reframed things; generating the greatest possible freedom for the as many people as possible requires that the Government remove the ability of "nobility" to coerce others.

captainhat.bsky.social•5 days ago

(using "nobility" as a shorthand here for the elite in general; those who wield power, whether that is monetary, social or otherwise)

wickedmitch.bsky.social•5 days ago

That’s kind of what I meant-my drift left basically happened with this epiphany (which actually also happened around the time of COVID though it was also in part due to personal spiritual experiences).

thedaddyotaku.bsky.social•5 days ago

Except that time they cut a live snake in half.
Fuck them.

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