Serious question, and not trying to start trouble, but: Why do school librarians need a Masters degree? That is, why aren't there undergrad programs for school librarianship? (Or are there, and I am just being ignorant?) 1/ - ThreadSky | a Reddit-style client for Bluesky

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social • 87 days ago

Serious question, and not trying to start trouble, but:

Why do school librarians need a Masters degree? That is, why aren't there undergrad programs for school librarianship? (Or are there, and I am just being ignorant?)

1/

Comments

agreatsong.bsky.social•86 days ago

There are a few colleges that have offered library science on the undergraduate level. However, a state board of education may require an advanced degree for service fields such as a school librarian or a school counselor. State agencies may also have an adv. degree req. for public librarians.

carolynvibbert.bsky.social•87 days ago

Interesting thread. As someone who went into an MAE from the start I think the masters is essential because I can’t imagine doing the education piece with an undergrad. Essential for someone already holding an education masters? Less certain. But at least one in ed? For sure.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

I agree; I think whatever the path to school librarianship, it has to include a component focused on the theory & practice of education for that SL student to have a solid chance of being a successful SL.

heatherpnwtx.bsky.social•86 days ago

Be taught but it should be taught by legal experts and far too many educators don’t follow the laws. 4 - library policies. Again, can be taught but far too many school librarians don’t have the support necessary to centralize and formalize the policy with the board of trustees.

heatherpnwtx.bsky.social•86 days ago

2. Cataloging. Tho the 1 semester course does not a cataloger make (as we discussed), it is something that no one else gets training on. IMO, school librarians should have a centralized process as cataloging is a language that one course is not enough for. 3. Law and libraries, yes this can also 2/3

heatherpnwtx.bsky.social•86 days ago

I absolutely see your point and this discussion is a good one to have. These are the things that you won’t see in other degrees: 1. Collection development. Can that be taught? Yes, but not all school districts have leadership to help coach, mentor, and build collection development systems. 1/2

readbooker.bsky.social•86 days ago

As someone who got an MLS as a “special” librarian I had to get a school library add-on to be school certified. My MLS program was very different from my BS (in poli sci). It would seem that a BS in library would prepare one for library work, but not management, with admin and budgeting.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•86 days ago

That totally makes sense to me.

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

Are Master's degrees gatekeeping & reinforcing elitism? Sure. They're expensive & harder for many to obtain due to systemic racism and other societal flaws. We are working on building pathways to support anyone who wants to advance in our district, so tour question comes at a perfect time 😀

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

Your questions. Fat thumbs.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

😂 I figured. If I had to clarify all my chunky-thumbed typos, it'd be my full time job. 😂

Former ELA teacher - I'm good at interpreting from context clues. 😁

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Yes! Part of me wants to require SLs to be classroom teachers first, 'cause there's SO MUCH you learn about students, how schools work, instruction, etc. But also - adding more barriers? Not awesome.

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

After sitting with this for a few minutes, I'll add the importance of teaching experience. SLs are (supposed to be) instructional leaders; teachers rarely respect someone who hasn't done the work, either librarian or admin. We find connections between resources and instruction, & curate accordingly.

pdavislibrarian.bsky.social•87 days ago

This!!!!!

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

Hi, I've served in 4 different US states in more than 10 school districts. School library staffing is a patchwork of state, district, and campus-specific priorities. There are licensing requirements in some places, many of which call for post grad certificates, not a full Master's.

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

The degree is extremely helpful, as many day to day choices are informed by a strong theoretical grounding, and well meaning but undertrained people do things that actively harm students and the program as a whole. As someone who has attempted to lead multiple campuses, I cannot know all of the

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

Choices my school based staff make, but knowing they should at least know better does help me sleep more soundly. Does the degree matter? Yes. Absolutely needed? Probably. If done well, the job is so complex that even the most robust PD program can't cover every possible scenario, so theory matters.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

100% agree that doing librarianship well requires a course of study over time, and on-the-ground practicum. Just wonder if folks should have an option to get the cert with a BA course of instruction.

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

I think it could be a valid entry point, supported with ongoing PD, mentorship, and lots of reflection. Gotta have that teaching experience though. For me, that is not negotiable.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

So, my dad volunteers for his town's personnel board, & they are having a debate abt whether their job listing for a public lib position needs to include MA or not.

Has me thinking. The most straightforward way to get NJ SL license is via MA.

1/

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

I think it might depend on the nature of the position. If leadership, then I believe they need the degree, or at least be willing to earn it with support of the town. We have had some tentative placements depending on degree that have worked out well. Anything less wold cheapen the profession, IMHO

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Totally agree. I wish there were required # of years as front line educator as well as advanced degrees & certs before they could be eleiigble for admin positions.

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

Yep, so many of them teach the minimum number of years just to get to the office. I didn't even begin to figure out how to teach until years 5-7.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Yes! Exactly!

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

(And I'd extend that to say that practicing admins should have to spend no less than 2 consecutive days every year doing each type of job they supervise to make sure their memories of what it's like on the front lines don't degrade.) 😂

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

My grad program was an awesome experience and also an incredibly important prep & learning experience. But my dad's situation has me wondering if there should be a less time & $ intensive way for creating new, capable, certified SLs.

ceburke.bsky.social•87 days ago

There are a few, for the teaching license. That’s going to vary by state. (MN has 2, and one ALA masters program).
Many people going into school settings will get the MLIS to provide professional options for other settings; also, like any Master’s, it bumps a person up on the pay scale.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

I mean, yes, if you have a degree in something else, Masters program makes sense. But why couldn't there be an undergrad major in school librarianship? (Again, could just be my ignorance, but I've never known or heard tell of this.)

2/

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

I ask as someone who probably wouldn't have known enough to take advantage of such an undergrad program. But with 4 degrees under my belt, I can't say the work for the SL degree was particulalry different from what I did in undergrad.

3/

fivecentsplease.bsky.social•87 days ago

I think that having background subject knowledge in an area from a BA is valuable to librarians. Whether we need a 2 year masters versus one year plus paid internship is another story. Also if anyone would offer a combined BA/MLS that would also help.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

That is fair - even just having experience working around/with the collegiate library & the collegiate research experience is valuable background to have.

technolibrary.bsky.social•87 days ago

In Texas you have to have two years teaching experience. Which I think is invaluable.

fivecentsplease.bsky.social•87 days ago

I thinking teaching experience is great but also that seems excessive. It’s just such high barrier to the career for so many folks. First get teaching certification, do one career for 2 years and then another? I am a career changer and I never would have done it.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

They're very different ways of engaging with students, classroom v library. But I agree that having some experience with being a classroom teacher gives SLs a decided advatgae.

ceburke.bsky.social•87 days ago

Thinking more: I think the breadth of study in a bachelors degree doesn’t really serve the depth of very specific knowledge *about knowledge* (library philosophy, etc) that librarians need. Would almost have to be a 2nd major (as my initial tchr license was): breadth one way, depth another. $0.02

cherieeweichel.bsky.social•87 days ago

I think you need to learn how to become a good teacher before you become a a TL. Here in BC, I could have done a diploma that would have enabled me to manage a library, but decided on a M.ED because I wanted to take courses in the Library Sciences department that were not available otherwise.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

I think classroom experience would be EXTREMELY valuable. Most programs I know of do not require educator experience; if that's not a requirement, I'm not sure I see a reason for SLs to need a Masters. Ideally, we're looking at a 5 yr BA/MA for edu & SL cert.

cherieeweichel.bsky.social•87 days ago

I don’t know how you can support teachers and students if you haven’t experienced being a teacher first. An excellent TL worked with me my first year teaching and it was one of my most important educational experiences. It was also because of her that I became a TL.

nancyjolambert.bsky.social•87 days ago

As an adjunct at the graduate level, the 2 years of study for the advanced degree is what prepares you for the professional practice of librarianship. Developing a knowledge of the theory behind the practice enables you to then work and practice as a professional.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Totally fair. And I am also coming at it from the POV of a 25 yr classroom teacher who made the change-over. Trying to think back to how little I knew while getting my BA (but that was a LOOOONG time ago, so memory is fuzzy at best!) 😁

nancyjolambert.bsky.social•86 days ago

I think there’s immense value is the knowledge acquired through thinking critically about the theory. Requiring advanced degrees for professions that have decades of theory behind the practice sets the bar for the work. School librarians add another layer by requiring teaching experience. 😊

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•86 days ago

That totally makes sense, particulalry in a profession focused on information, info lit, and information theory.

ewohlstein.bsky.social•87 days ago

I always wanted to be librarian. Didn't know that I'd end up in IT but that's a diff story. It wasn't until I was in a MLIS program that I took children's lit, cataloging, network admin, indexing/taxonomy. I was free-range as an undergrad - English Lit and Geology.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

It would be great if undergrads could get those MI-based programs - there are SO MANY things I learned that I now use regularly.

1/

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

I originally started the MI program while working on my Ed.D. Dissertation. Figured it would help me learn research skills. Couldn't handle both programs, so dropped the MI for a while. But definitely would have benefitted from the MI skills in undergrad & grad.

ewohlstein.bsky.social•87 days ago

Also should say I am school librarian-adjacent. I help them with resources but I'm not an SL.

sleeparks.bsky.social•87 days ago

In 1983 I graduated from James Madison University in Harrisonburg VA with an undergraduate degree in school librarianship and was credentialed as a school librarian They did away with the program @ 5 years later, forcing people to get an undergraduate degree and then the masters.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Thank you for the info!

wanderindreamr.bsky.social•87 days ago

I went into a different side of librarianship (more archival related) but I have friends/family members who are teachers and I believe all of them needed either a masters in teaching or a masters degree in the subject they were teaching plus a certificate of sorts in teaching. So "school librarian,

wanderindreamr.bsky.social•87 days ago

who is a teacher of sorts, needs to also have an equivalent degree (level of assessed proficiency and depth of knowledge) as the other teachers employed by the school" feels not unreasonable to me?

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

And, to be fair, I am ancient and was able to get my teaching cert with a BA. I agree that being a school librarian should not be a lesser degree than what is needed to be some other type of educator.

wanderindreamr.bsky.social•87 days ago

When I was in library school I toured a bunch of institutions and we'd ask so, how did you get your job? and I swear to god nearly every answer I got was "WELL, I started out as a rattlesnake wrangler and one thing led to another and now I'm here!" Everywhere requires a higher level of degrees than

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

TBF, if someone went from rattlesnake wrangling to school librarianship, they absolutely deserve to be there. 😂 😂 😂 😂 (That would actually probably be very relevant job exp for dealing w/ some Ss & parents.) 😂

wanderindreamr.bsky.social•87 days ago

it did when Boomers and even early gen X-ers were being hired it seems! (I'm a "younger millennial" for context)

wanderindreamr.bsky.social•87 days ago

I suspect it's also related to the fact that librarian degrees are a bit odd in that there is no undergrad equivalent, it's a maters level degree only (well, and a rare few folks getting PhDs, I don't think anyone in my cohort was going for that).
My school had recently implemented an "information

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Yes! That's more what I was trying to get at. Thank you for putting that in much more clear language!

wanderindreamr.bsky.social•87 days ago

science" bachelor's degree that was within the same iSchool as us but even that had a different focus as I understand it, a good one but not with the specialized knowledge that you should have in various library fields (accessioning vs conservation vs coding vs how to write grants etc.)

amybrownlee93.bsky.social•86 days ago

You can add your school library certification without an MLS. Some schools offer library certification as part of a master’s in ed tech or curriculum and instruction.

amybrownlee93.bsky.social•86 days ago

Also, the course load for a bachelor’s degree in education is heavy. It would difficult to add all the theory and specialized knowledge into a bachelor’s program in education.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•86 days ago

You're not wrong. There's SO MUCH to know for both fields. And having practical, hands-on experience is easier to come by in the classroom than the library, I think (which is a shame).

rachelmcc.bsky.social•87 days ago

I'm in Washington state and you have to have your endorsement, but not necessarily a MILS. I went through a program that offers the library classes as either. I chose to get my Masters and had to do extra in every class. Mine is Masters in Teaching with the focus in library.

ljwattswales.bsky.social•87 days ago

Do schools always appoint librarians with Masters? (Steve, you are in the USA right?) where you are? Here in UK, it’s patchy to say the least. Sometimes staff with no experience or training appointed.

lenbryan25.bsky.social•87 days ago

In the US, school libraries are staffed by any range of people with a wide variety of educational and background experience. It differs greatly depending on legislation and local policies.

ljwattswales.bsky.social•87 days ago

Thanks both. I had visions of every school library staffed by someone with a Masters degree 😬

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Then your vision was of my dream world. 😂 😂 😂

ljwattswales.bsky.social•87 days ago

🤣 I was extremely naive

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Yes; as @lenbryan25 pointed out, it's a bit of a mess. In theory, SLs are certified & licensed, as are classroom educators. In practice, it's a mish-mosh, not only nationally, but even within states.

loritecler.bsky.social•87 days ago

I don't have an MLIS, but I have an undergrad degree in elementary ed & history & two other masters degrees (one in instructional technology), plus teaching experience. When I decided to move to the library, I had my transcript evaluated & took courses to meet my state's certification requirement.

loritecler.bsky.social•87 days ago

I think my teaching experience has definitely supported my skills as an elementary librarian. I also was an elementary ELA content specialist at the district level, so I bring that lens to my work. I don't think an MLIS would have made a difference for me.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

I think that is a great path.

tljamesa.com•86 days ago

This a good Q. I taught a school library graduate course this semester. I had one student voice their concerns, and the additional difficulty in this class, stemming from their lack of experience in education. It’s a tall task to get a library degree that covers training in all kinds of libraries.

tljamesa.com•86 days ago

So, a struggle would be having an undergrad degree, but one that would only apply to schools, or public libraries, or academic libraries, but not all. Plus the lift of preparing someone for the library, but also prepare them for teaching, technology, student psychology, etc. at the same time.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•86 days ago

That's absolutely fair. It sometimes slips myind how vast a field of knowledge is needed to be a successful SL.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•86 days ago

(And I forget that, beyond my small sphere of friends & acquaintances, it's not the norm for folks to have multiple grad degrees, which I sometimes take for granted - both in terms of the knowledge earned and the experiences entailed in the learning.)

ashleycooksey2.bsky.social•87 days ago

School librarians are both practicing librarians & teachers. The undergrad prog prepares you to be a teacher. The grad prog gives you the knowledge to be a school librarian.
I don't know of any undergrad school librarian progs. Would need a test for proficiency & licensure. Praxis is used in AR.

pdavislibrarian.bsky.social•87 days ago

Theoretically a school librarian should be a master teacher with experience teaching and a master at classroom management. At an elementary level you need to be an expert at teaching 6 different grade levels. You also act as a curriculum consultant for the entire school. Often at multiple schools.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Agreed. I have some grad work in Ed Admin, and there is a lot of useful info from there that helps inform my teaching & school librarianship. I just wonder: We let Ts kinda dive right in to the classroom; I wonder what that would look like for the library space?

1/

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

Lots of fumbling around, for sure. But much more than new Ts?

I mean, what it REALLY oughta be is: Every school has at least 2 SLs, and a new SL would work with a seasoned SL. Better for all involved (SLs, Ts, Ss, admins) across all dimensions.

pdavislibrarian.bsky.social•87 days ago

That is the dream! In Springfield, Mo, the administrator of libraries position for the district was just eliminated along with a number of librarian jobs. Every elementary librarian will be serving two schools. One friend serves 5 schools! I am thankful to be at the public library!

fkompar.bsky.social•85 days ago

Extremely short-sighted. Decisions about staffing are often made by people who do not know what school librarians do. These folks just cut critical services from their students from instruction on research/inquiry, media literacy, digital citizenship to advocacy for independent reading.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•85 days ago

Yup. Penny wise, pound foolish.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

It is insane that anyone thinks a librarian can serve multiple schools. I was working from the HS library for year, and was semi-serving the HS and the MS, and it was not good for either.

mljcwest.bsky.social•86 days ago

That’s insane. Every school needs its own librarian/media specialist.

booknerdbonnie.bsky.social•87 days ago

It’s so state-dependent. In MA, all teachers need to have a masters anyway within five years of starting a job, so it made sense for me to get my MLS at the start. You now also can be a school librarian in MA with a diff masters and passing the Praxis

librarianofnote.bsky.social•87 days ago

I do know there are bachelors degrees for libraries (a handful but they’re there) but idk if it leads to certification. I personally believe *some* class work to comprehend collection development & other school lib nuances are necessary. Teaching certs alone don’t delve into that.

drtlovesbooks.bsky.social•87 days ago

I agree that there are important hands-on experiences, and important knowledge & skills that are needed to be a successful, engaged, & engaging SL.

(Also, funny we are having this convo here while sitting 3' apart. 😂)

librarianofnote.bsky.social•87 days ago

Yup agree

And yes I actually thought that as I saw your reply… 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣