Y'all. It happened AGAIN. Stop relying on generative AI for legal research. Or don't, but then I'm going to use you for my CLE. - ThreadSky

jdotj.bsky.social • 446 days ago

Y'all. It happened AGAIN.

Stop relying on generative AI for legal research. Or don't, but then I'm going to use you for my CLE.

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Comments

analydia.net•446 days ago

It didn't *happen* again - it was *done* again. I think the distinction is important (eyes open that nobody has asked me).

latognetti.bsky.social•446 days ago

Of course it was Michael Cohen’s lawyer 😂

jojowiththeflow.bsky.social•446 days ago

If lawyers using AI isn't bad enough already, I can just imagine the remote therapy providers to start using AI and provide people with fake AI therapists without disclosing this to patients (like Sports Illustrated did with its made-up 'writers')

mitchellepner.bsky.social•446 days ago

As far as I can tell:
1. David M. Schwartz files a letter-motion for early termination of release, with 3 bullet points citing to & discussing 3 cases (11/28);
2. E. Danya Perry substitutes for Mr. Schwartz and files letter saying cases can't be found, but here's others (12/8)
3. Court enters OTSC.

mitchellepner.bsky.social•446 days ago

I find it interesting that the USAO's 12/4 opposition to Mr. Schwartz's letter-motion for early termination of supervised release does not take any issue with the three (apparently non-existent) cases cited in the 11/28 letter-motion.

abtnatural.bsky.social•446 days ago

The AUSA wasn't even tempted to look up the case with "a fact pattern [] almost identical to Mr. Cohen's".
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.499666/gov.uscourts.nysd.499666.88.0.pdf

abtnatural.bsky.social•446 days ago

Did Perry substitute for Schwartz? It looks to me like she just appeared as additional co-counsel. Which makes it weirder that he didn't immediately come forward with some explanation when his co-counsel pointed it out to him.
Or does a notice like this suffice as a substitution in SDNY?

mitchellepner.bsky.social•446 days ago

This could be a substitution, if he withdrew. I do not see that on the docket.

regipsaloquitur.com•446 days ago

I am interested in this CLE.

catherinelukian.bsky.social•446 days ago

I still have same question as the law student: “Why do people think that AI (in this case ChatGPT) should ultimately know all of the possible information, database, etc??? Especially in legal science???” Law is dynamic with our world, we do not have same for N-years laws, traditions, etc…

gunsofchekhovia.bsky.social•446 days ago

I think it's less thinking that it should know everything, and more not understanding that it literally makes up things that sound real.

catherinelukian.bsky.social•446 days ago

True, but the question itself was referred to the people who use the Chat in this way.

bruceweinberger.bsky.social•446 days ago

Lawyers who do this should be disbarred. Just utter contempt for law and process

mabehr.bsky.social•446 days ago

Wait is this… Michael Cohen the Trump (former) lawyer?

jdotj.bsky.social•446 days ago

The only way this can be funnier (because that footnote is a disclosure for the ages) is if the former lawyer relied on Grok.

popeofchilitown.bsky.social•446 days ago

What if they ask Grok to generate the three non-existent opinions and try to submit those?

“Here you go. Weird that you couldn’t find them.”

That might be funnier.

zyzzyva.bsky.social•446 days ago

I mean, the folks in the ChatGPT case back in the spring did just that already! And it was pretty funny, yeah.

travelbuddha.bsky.social•446 days ago

There are a few things one can be certain of, one of which is that if you never want to end up as the subject of JJ & KPD’s CLE.

jerrylevine.com•446 days ago

J.J. - we should talk about doing a CLE at LegalWeek or something else. ;)

questauthority.bsky.social•446 days ago

I don't think this is AI. I think the guy just plain made shit up.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.499666/gov.uscourts.nysd.499666.88.0.pdf

bobbryan2.bsky.social•446 days ago

You think he made up United Flibs v Morehart or an AI?

questauthority.bsky.social•446 days ago

United Flibs isn't a thing that's really in either the order or the brief.

giraffeloopy.bsky.social•418 days ago

My Flibs: United.

jennifermromig.bsky.social•446 days ago

How is Cobbledick a real case but these are not

dragongirlb.bsky.social•444 days ago

Wow, just wow.

lawzag.bsky.social•446 days ago

Always
Be
ChatGPTing.

slightlyirish.bsky.social•446 days ago

i don't think law school is like, SUPER hard, but i genuinely do not understand how you can obtain a jd in the first place and be this stupid

kalasalle.bsky.social•446 days ago

I went to law school. I have practiced for 10 years. I can unequivocally confirm there are absolutely people with a JD who are this stupid.

omegamom.bsky.social•446 days ago

What do you call a person who graduated last in medical school? “Doctor”. In this case, just replace the punchline.

gunsofchekhovia.bsky.social•446 days ago

Lawyers in general have no idea what this technology is. They assume that it's a Google that talks pretty. The fact that it actually produces case citations that look real but aren't was surprising the first time.

It doesn't help that Westlaw also touts integration of "AI" into its own products.

slightlyirish.bsky.social•446 days ago

But to not even check the cases? There’s only 3! And none were real, he couldn’t have checked even 1! I am quite lazy but that is incomprehensible to me

gunsofchekhovia.bsky.social•446 days ago

Can't say I disagree there.

l-t-g.bsky.social•446 days ago

It's a copy and paste operation to check these cases - literally copy the citation from whatever AI spat them out, paste that citation into Lexis, Westlaw, whatever.

You don't even have to retype the citation. And yet this lawyer - on a high profile case - was still too lazy.

lizardky.bsky.social•446 days ago

Any belief I had that lawyers were smart died in late 2020. The coffin was sealed by Paul Davis and In Re Gondor.

amfisher.bsky.social•446 days ago

There have got to be more interesting and entertaining ways to lose one's bar license than this AI crap.

josh412.com•446 days ago

No disbarment, just sanctions this time:

https://www.techdirt.com/2023/06/09/the-sanctions-hearing-for-chatgpt-using-lawyers-did-not-go-well/

amfisher.bsky.social•446 days ago

ChatGPT says: "Caution to attorneys: Avoid incorporating ChatGPT in legal briefs. Its lack of legal expertise and potential inaccuracies may compromise the document's credibility. Rely on professional legal knowledge for reliability in litigation."

amfisher.bsky.social•446 days ago

Maybe I should quit the law and build a LLM with an LLM. When you ask it to write a brief, it charges $500 and then recites your local bar rules about properly citing real cases.

jayalltheems.bsky.social•446 days ago

"Figueroa-Florez" is an absolute chef's kiss

jesseberney.com•446 days ago

At least he didn't do this in a high profile case everyone would be paying atten--oh whoops

whenisayj.bsky.social•446 days ago

I was going to say, is this _the_ Michael Cohen?!

oldnumberseven.bsky.social•446 days ago

Is this malpractice?

sheadapts.bsky.social•446 days ago

Darwinism of jurisprudence?
Or just plain Darwinism?

calizaybak.bsky.social•446 days ago

Why? Like aren't there actual cases they can cite? Like even if they're weak or not quite on point, still better than this, surely?

kevinrsours.bsky.social•446 days ago

That would require time and research. You know, actual effort.

talesfrompurgatory.bsky.social•419 days ago

People are doing WHAT now??? Judges literally look cases up during argument, do people not think they’ll bother to look them up while reviewing motions in camera?

kaosvscontrol.bsky.social•446 days ago

Hilarious really...i have caught several manuscrip during my review process that cite erroneous scientific publications

tyrotcm.bsky.social•446 days ago

I can't read this without alt text.

guiltypanacea.bsky.social•446 days ago

The order and full text can be accessed at this link

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/7709849/96/united-states-v-cohen/

tyrotcm.bsky.social•446 days ago

Sounds like it would have been easy to copy the text to put in alt. Thanks.

guiltypanacea.bsky.social•446 days ago

I agree. People need to get used to doing that

tyrotcm.bsky.social•446 days ago

OW. White background PDF. Part of the reason I need the alt text is because it works with dark mode. Text on white background = migraine trigger 😟

I meant my thanks, though. The link is appreciated, even though I can't really use it. /gen, no subtext intended

guiltypanacea.bsky.social•446 days ago

See if this works better

tyrotcm.bsky.social•446 days ago

dammit, I can't scroll the alt text for some reason (pc or phone)

that's not on you, though - I really appreciate the try

tyrotcm.bsky.social•446 days ago

much, thank you

somedonuts.bsky.social•446 days ago

Lucky for them it was a low-profile case. 😂

doncruse.bsky.social•446 days ago

“Esq. LLM” was full disclosure all along

guiltypanacea.bsky.social•446 days ago

Dude has his own Wikipedia page

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schwartz_(lawyer)

hairybusiness.bsky.social•446 days ago

why do people do this oh my god

rexvrex.bsky.social•446 days ago

lmao

also I would be interested in that CLE

andralyn.bsky.social•446 days ago

If I'm ever sued (again) I'm going to represent myself and cite Eliza vs. Magic 8-Ball.

drsbaitso.vip•446 days ago

HELLO.

I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE SEEKING LEGAL ADVICE.

AS I AM A VIRTUAL THERAPIST I CANNOT OFFER SUCH SERVICES.

I CAN HELP YOU EXPLORE YOUR FEELINGS AND BLAME YOUR PARENTS.

otthouse.bsky.social•446 days ago

Eliza.

Holy crap I think my brain esploded. I totally forgot about that thing.

audes-wisent.bsky.social•446 days ago

I might be a German Law Student rather than an American Lawyer, but I do kinda feel that anyone in the field would come to the conclusion that an algorithm made to copy linguistics from stolen text won't really be able to discern the context of the most convoluted thing ever created by man.

lauraclemens.bsky.social•446 days ago

And AGAIN

lauraclemens.bsky.social•446 days ago

To be fair this lady was representing herself

Still eeek though

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