I feel like a good thing to point out is just how little labour was actually required to keep society running during the COVID lockdowns. Imagine we all stop doing the pointless jobs that only exist to enrich assholes, and just share the necessary labour between us? We'd all be working a lot less
its not quite the same but i wish more people would remember that commutes to work are entirely unnecessary and make a lot of people's lives measurably worse
I would say 'often' or perhaps 'largely', not 'entirely'. There's plenty work that does require the worker(s) to be at a specific place to do the work, and often it's the most necessary work to keeping our communities functioning
Yeah, even with automation and being spread out over a large group of people, farm labor is still grueling, intense work to make enough stuff to support a population. Especially since we’d want the new farms to be safer and more sanitary than what we have now.
I think people are so used to the disabled simply being abandoned or worse that they can't take us (disabled people) being considered as a given. To them, saying work still exists = people who can't work starve.
part of that problem is the short-form social media format these conversations are happening on. people don't connect dots like "people who can't work starve currently" and "we're talking about a different system entirely where that isn't the case". arguments are circular and non-clarifying
Of course the goal is advancing production so labor is not as harsh or as long and more and more productive but like. We can’t just twiddle thumbs at the beginning especially
A socialist project is going to require a lot of work, like a LOT of work, upfront so hopefully one day we can actually achieve material equality. It will always be an ongoing effort however
I think a good thing we can consider is that a lot of human productive capacity is wasted on things people don’t need or even want and ultimately ends up mostly producing waste or nothing of value to society
I like doing a little bit of heavy lifting and dirty work every now and then I just don't want to do it 40 hours a week 40 years and still worry about rent and food.
under communism frank the insurance salesman can spend 10 hours a week doing local bureaucracy stuff and the other 30 he can spend volunteering at the animal shelter like he tells himself he should instead of spending 40 or more hours each week selling shit that wont work and everyone hates
so many people who have said that to me have pictures of their Funko Pop shrines so I think they're going to challenge you on this one too unfortunately
i wish more economists nailed this point home. most people have absolutely no idea how much not just production but blood sweat and tears get poured into genuinely useless things. id argue its easily about half of our current economy
people put a lot of (deserved) blame on industries like fast fashion that overproduce low-quality goods and dump the unsold portions, but that's every industry at this point! we live in the slop economy
You're making the same mistake here a lot of people make when it comes to lefty terminology, which is assuming a colloquial definition in place of what's actually intended to be a specialist one. "Labor" in i.e. Marx isn't simply the action of working for an end, but the specific process of
labor under capitalism, i.e., wage labor. When someone like me says "There wouldn't be work in capitalism," what I mean is there won't be wage labor, not literally that everyone won't have to do anything to i.e. keep the power grid going or the dams working.
Also, to preempt: I'm sure that there's people that mean a lot stupider things than what I'm saying here, I ain't tryna speak for said hypothetical people, I'm just defending my use of the label "anti-work."
everyone who argued against communism with me is rabid about stating that no one will dig ditches or shovel shit and has zero response when I say that Id happily do that under communism where my needs are met and I only need to do it for about 20 hours a week and with PPE/ergonomic equipment
So much consumerism. UBI worldwide would address two problems - the argument that ppl need to buy cheap things bc poor & make it possible for people to not feel like they have to work for companies like SHEIN & Amazon
I'm a college professor and I want to keep working. If part of a socialist transition to communism is allowing people more time to self-actualize then facilitating that would be incredibly meaningful
To build a society you need labor, that’s a pretty basic fact. I don’t mind working, but I would like to actually do something that I feel is productive and helpful instead of making someone else money.
Yeah, the problem isn't working. It's how long, in what conditions and why we have to work that's the problem. The idea that someone pushes for a world with no work is sad and empty.
Work is so central in communism and socialism that they made it be the very first point in our Constitution: “Art. 1 - Italy is a Democratic Republic founded on labour.” Then they reiterated it in Article 4 👇🏻
“Every citizen has the duty, in accordance with their capability and choice, to perform an activity or function that contributes to the material or spiritual progress of society.”
I am amazed at how baffled people get when I say I would gladly work just about any job if it meant everyone on Earth was adequately clothed, sheltered, and fed
if I'm laboring for a system that actually takes care of people I'm fine doing what needs doing
You’re not even allowed to sit down in a chair if you run a cash register all day in this country unless you’ve got a doctor’s note, and ha ha, we don’t pay you enough to survive, much less go see a doctor.
Oh, and the register and counter are placed at heights that will mess up your back, too.
Honestly, I love learning new things and would be interested in finding new ways to contribute towards this hypothetical future society’s development. I just don’t want society to consider me and other workers as inferior for doing important work. Also, I want to be paid lol.
as a famous dude who gets misquoted by white people a whole lot famously might've said: work's surprisingly bearable when you don't hate why you're doing it
If every nation on earth had the labor efficency (through industrialisation/mechanisation) that Fully developed nations had, i can see only needing ~1b "real jobs" to keep everyone fed, clothed, safe, and moderately entertained.
If you took the quick and dirty route you could do it in 30 years.
But of course if you want to be climate stable it would probably take ~70 years.
and then if no "real jobs" are available, you simply dont have to work. (jobs are available if you want one, but there would also be stipend based on local "GDP" so most would still have some luxuries without work.
A lot of the "work" would be downscaling from the ridiculous necessity of capitalism where you just keep making more to dump in the desert, ocean, a tip and the resource extraction for that.
So probably much less and under much better conditions then now.
I sorta wish we'd change the way we talk back and forth about this because I feel like something is being almost willfully lost in translation. It's such an old argument that I feel like people are stuck in a rut on it. Generally we can all agree there's Stuff Needs Doing and we even want to do it.
And I guess maybe the words are like "have to", "need to", and "work" because they get parsed strangely and there isn't a lot of good faith being exchanged. Like We (collectively, aggregate) do Need (because it's dire) to do Work (effort, activity) but not the same shit we already do at all.
I feel like we can account for disability and inabilities to work traditional jobs, not being able to work at all, burnout and mental health issues, transportation and housing issues - like we can account for all this stuff, but someone needs to do something I assume.
Right like, most jobs can be dropped, and a lot of stuff that needs to be done doesn't even look like work, it's just stuff we often already do - but it does need to be done, and it doesn't need to be done by everyone all the time, but there will probably be someone who wants to do it.
Honestly I think the overwhelming majority of the 'work' involved will be the systemic reorganization needed to shift from a capitalist society to a needs-met based society. After that admittedly huge hurdle is crossed, the *actual* work needing to be done will be a tiny fraction of what it is now.
Everything is always a bit of a mess so it'll be a bit of a mess but, on the other hand, the infrastructure is already here. There are already warehouses and distribution nodes, already cafeterias, water treatment plants, sewage systems, agriculture systems, which is the POINT of productive forces.
What???? No! That stuff all belongs to Some Guy, you can't just use it! The socialists will just have to build their own infrastructure, then we can play their weird game
And China has gotten a lot of deserved shit for becoming a sort of state capital hub but, on the other hand, their primary stated goal was "build up productive forces" because their problem was "don't have infrastructure and can't get tools or money to build it" so they got those things.
The biggest hurdle is that the only reason the existing systems under capitalism have tottered along without self-destructing for as long as they have is continuous exploitation of impoverished occupied territories. Shifting from that, I feel, will be the biggest shock to collective society.
Most people actually don't mind working! Humans are naturally industrious and we eventually go nuts if we don't have "something to do". What people don't like is being forced to work for a pittance to enrich someone else, something that socialism is literally designed to not do.
I mean, sure, they get to choose a different flavor of drudgery and *maybe* get paid enough to live, but even that's getting rarer.
Contrast with working a assigned job for less time and getting all my basics taken care of and the rest of my time mine to do as I see fit, I know what I'd choose.
It's genuinely shocking to me how many people don't seem to want this deal. Say, 20h of assigned, necessary work/week for everybody who's able, rest of the time you can do whatever you want? Sign me right up! IMO we can do that right now with a bit of decent organization and improve from there too.
Also, I know you think you did something here but 1) actual socialist theory has addressed all of this already and 2) No one was even talking about state assigned work before you started. I was just commenting on the (false) idea that "no one wants to work". No one wants to be exploited.
Socialism is like capitalism except the CEO who makes a billion dollars because they had an idea once is dead and also every company is working to make your life better in some way
The understanding about what Socialism and communism is and how it works has been so undermined and skewed after the cold war that this and the whole "socialism is government does thing" now exist
and modern internet anarchists arguing that socialism & communism are labor camps are so far removed from the industrial revolution & workers rights movement anarchists. neoliberalism fried them like the cold war fried our perception by others
I feel like people do not appreciate enough how much even "health insurance is not tied to work" alone can make a difference in quality of life. Working itself isn't the issue, it's everything around it crushing your spirit under capitalism
No, it's actually based, because the opposite of having to do something is being able to choose to do whatever you want, which doesn't exclude... Well, doing whatever you want.
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And the remaining 25% is a white-hot ball of incoherent rage at and hatred of the republican party and everything they are doing.
Granted, a lot of weather, water, and nutrient tracking is easier in the present day, but that adds costs. On top of disease and pest control.
Christ almighty, my bad lol
And… 👇🏻
if I'm laboring for a system that actually takes care of people I'm fine doing what needs doing
If we applied funding, safety, regulation, enforcement, automation, and pay appropriately, they wouldn't be shitty jobs anymore.
That would also create more good jobs.
Oh, and the register and counter are placed at heights that will mess up your back, too.
(based on production/economic factors, NOT social/poltical factors)
If you took the quick and dirty route you could do it in 30 years.
and then if no "real jobs" are available, you simply dont have to work. (jobs are available if you want one, but there would also be stipend based on local "GDP" so most would still have some luxuries without work.
So probably much less and under much better conditions then now.
That said, no one person is entitled to the profit of our labor. Without our brains and muscles not a single wheel would turn.
be a greeter at walmar
make stupid shit that falls apart and we don't even want
meaningless drone at spreadsheet factory
Things we do need to do
repair environment
make sure people are fed and housed
make sure people have clean water
make things people need
Contrast with working a assigned job for less time and getting all my basics taken care of and the rest of my time mine to do as I see fit, I know what I'd choose.