I regret this and think it’s something new btw. It’s different from ideological conflict based on different views of how to tackle real world problems. And different from a situation where debates take place within a framework (even if occasionally breached) of democratic and truth-telling norms. - ThreadSky

lewisbaston.bsky.social • 60 days ago

I regret this and think it’s something new btw. It’s different from ideological conflict based on different views of how to tackle real world problems. And different from a situation where debates take place within a framework (even if occasionally breached) of democratic and truth-telling norms.

Comments

lesserspottedh.bsky.social•60 days ago

It has absorbed wilful misinformation as somehow legitimate.

londondiscuss.bsky.social•60 days ago

It's new old. It's authoritarianism. It's ceased to be populism. It's about destruction, theft and ultimate power now. To them 'democracy' is no longer wanted.

talien1985.bsky.social•60 days ago

I think most of these people are aware that their message is not rational, so they try to shift the conversation to an emotional ground, so the loudest can win. The goal is not to have a discussion, but rally under a banner, where the rallying cry is rooted in negative emotions.

strategyaaron.bsky.social•60 days ago

A good friend of mine is having his brain fried by X and I’ve stopped engaging in discussions with him because I realised it’s like arguing with a flat earther or someone who thinks the Moon landing was faked. Nothing I say matters.

bendorgrosvenor.bsky.social•60 days ago

A related phenomenon I see is people self-sorting themselves into camps based on who supports or opposes a particular issue (without thinking at all critically about the particular issue). This must be social media driven, given the temptation to signal on issues quickly.

rolandmcs.bsky.social•60 days ago

I don't know how they come back from this. Rightist thinkers are completely surrounded by the unthinking, and consequently the former often become just a cover story for the latter.

One or two Unherd writers fall into this category. The phenomenon is especially acute in the Gender Critical space.

gendergoblinhelen.bsky.social•59 days ago

heavens to betsy, who would have thought that 'gender critical' people would end up praising and hanging out with far right headbangers. who could have predicted that.

rolandmcs.bsky.social•60 days ago

What I'm noticing is that, after while, the supposedly independent Rightist thinker's views start fusing with the headbangers. It doesn't work the other way - the headbangers do not learn and become more nuanced over time.

One might call it 'populist osmosis'.

lesserspottedh.bsky.social•60 days ago

I like the term *populist osmosis*. It’s probably happening a lot more than we might think, at all kinds of levels.

richmorrow.bsky.social•59 days ago

I'd guess rightist thinker views give headbangers a patina of reason for existing tribalism instincts. But the rightists soon realise these people only care about the emotional charge, and get bored easily. So, they have to add more dopamine drops into their views or lose relevance.

trefeca.bsky.social•60 days ago

In pre-Musk days on Twitter I made a point of following some interesting right-wing accounts. It’s not just a matter of their having become more obnoxious, it’s also that they’re no longer interesting. You learn nothing useful & there is no possibility of meaningful interaction.

cosaingalway.bsky.social•59 days ago

The remarkable thing now is that the new far-right fruitloops and alt-right nutjobs make the old common-or-garden hawkish right-wingers seem quite normal and reasonable.

For example, listen to John Bolton shredding various MAGA morons and you might think he sounds like quite a nice chap after all.

cosaingalway.bsky.social•8 days ago

👇

https://bsky.app/profile/craigcalcaterra.bsky.social/post/3ljmu7z5eys2v

jeffhumm.bsky.social•60 days ago

Entropy.

hoxtoniate.bsky.social•59 days ago

Bellendtropy

gilbo41.bsky.social•59 days ago

Lol, followed 🤣

rolandmcs.bsky.social•60 days ago

To rehash a phrase someone once used about nationalism ("it starts with morris dancing and ends with barbed wire"), populism may start with Mary Harrington and end with Serena Joy Waterford.*

* No I'm definitely not saying Mary herself will turn into Serena Joy. I really don't see that happening.

davidherdson.bsky.social•59 days ago

But that's the point: there is no inevitable descent. People *choose* to make that journey, and to agree with the extreme ideology and propaganda they're fed and consume.

richarddubourg.bsky.social•60 days ago

Handmaid's Tale seems scarily prescient. That's impossible to comprehend.

teajunkie.bsky.social•59 days ago

I wouldn't be surprised if she did.

warzoid.bsky.social•57 days ago

I knew Mary when she was a trans-friendly liberal queer. From Mary back then to Mary the pill-questioning tradwife & neocon grifter?

Don't rule out Serena Joy Waterford being the next step.

rolandmcs.bsky.social•60 days ago

The signs are there: Mary holds nuanced views of us reverting to a more natural version of ourselves: questioning use of 'the pill'; not playing God; ambivalent on abortion; gender critical; promoting motherhood & family; being 'against progress' & against no-fault divorce; sceptical of Tech.

rolandmcs.bsky.social•60 days ago

But it all started with Brexit - the populist mob allying with (and using as a cover story) a minority of more liberal 'sovereignty thinkers' & leftists.

Suffice it to say the non-populists got trampled at the first opportunity, but 'populist osmosis' kept fools like Hannan and Kate Hoey on board.

aardgoose.info•60 days ago

Hoey was always a headbanger.

rolandmcs.bsky.social•60 days ago

PS: I watched this happen in a Jordan Peterson interview with Mary Harrington - Peterson obviously the bigger 'name' (and a shit-stirrer). Mary said thoughtful GC things on gender; Peterson then got worked up about Will (Lia) Thomas and exclaimed "we should all deadname him ALL OF THE TIME". /1

hereinmymind.bsky.social•59 days ago

Osmosis, being a unidirectional movement from a low-concentration environment to a high-concentration environment, does seem very appropriate!

aliafro.bsky.social•59 days ago

The slippery simpleist slope to senility

davidneilhamilton.bsky.social•60 days ago

I think what you're seeing is the "own the lib(tard)s" movement that originally started on 4chan, and exploded with the advent of social media.

All they care about is "winning" the argument, essential finding areas of weakness of Centre & Left.
No interest in fixing problems, improving things.

teajunkie.bsky.social•59 days ago

Not only do they have no interest in improving things, but they positively want to make them as bad as possilbe. They want to tear society apart so that they can remake it entirely in their own image.
#accelerationism

doikeit.bsky.social•35 days ago

That eschaton ain't gonna imenentize itself!

davidneilhamilton.bsky.social•60 days ago

Brexit turbo-charged that type of argument too:

Remainers tended to want to be "right", whereas majority of Leavers just cared about "Winning"

simonfrcox.bsky.social•60 days ago

some pieces of this might be:
- other political movements formed through face to face contact, friendship - but 4chan was/is entirely online. Any personal contact is *post* online.

simonfrcox.bsky.social•60 days ago

What effects does online genesis have on the nature of a political movement? Maybe:
- attracts / promotes people with different social skills / personalities / behaviour to those who would join / pursue a movement which is essentially face to face?

davidneilhamilton.bsky.social•60 days ago

Cummings' approach to Leave campaign was a perfect example of this 'winning, not solving' as approach.
As Roland has recounted, Cummings suppressed any talk of what a Brexit plan might look like.
Brexit campaign was all about attacking Leave's weaknesses, no solutions.
https://bsky.app/profile/iandunt.bsky.social/post/3lfjvvqfsls2f

valoisdubins.bsky.social•59 days ago

Gender criticalism is a polite form of a fundamental far right element: disgust as a political principle.

The reason why transphobia has been the spearhead is that it *legitimates* disgust. It serves as a release. So GCs move easily into Islamophobia, antisemitism, misogyny, homophobia.

coeliacexpat.bsky.social•58 days ago

Transphobia is about disgust/ hatred. But GC isn't about disgust or transphobia per se. You're conflating 2 separate strands.It should b possible to recognise both trans right based on gender reassignment and women's sex-based rights. Julie Bindel, Joan Smith, Martina Navratilova are all on left.

valoisdubins.bsky.social•58 days ago

“GC isn’t about disgust or transphobia per se”

coeliacexpat.bsky.social•58 days ago

Oh well. So much for a better class of discussion.
GC feminism is an assertion of women's right to freedom from discrimination or abuse.
You seem to think it's something else.

valoisdubins.bsky.social•58 days ago

This is Juiie Bindel: a Daily Mail hack and fan of the very right wing Kemi Badenoch

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-feminists-like-me-are-backing-badenoch/

GC isn’t feminism. It’s patriarchy in the guise of biological essentialism.

It’s a bunch of largely white ageing middle class men and women going yuck at trans people.

localnotail.bsky.social•59 days ago

I've continued to follow two accounts on X-Twitter who were Remainers but who have fallen fully to the TERF side of GC and are now sharing far-right stuff, it's very worrying.

telson.bsky.social•59 days ago

Transphobia is an excellent entry point to frothing insanity.

localnotail.bsky.social•59 days ago

Just like racism, it is easy to manipulate any private prejudices into public protest through targeted disinformation and emotional engagement by media. Especially social media.
Not hard to become radicalised into feeling a great wrong is being ignored or your identity is being attacked / erased.

gh0sttown.bsky.social•60 days ago

Musk is chief troll.

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