Clearly you haven't been paying attention.
We've posted repeatedly on the entire plan. Feel free to look back through our site and realize we've addressed this issue countless times.
Also have to consider the efficiency loss in generation and transmission of the power. Thermal power plants have an efficiency of about 42%. Not an issue with wind, solar or nuke, however
Honest question - have you worked out the environmental difference in manufacture? I’m convinced in terms of running but I’ve seen nothing in terms of what it takes to make them.
That one's called embodied energy and yes there's analysis along those lines.
I'll see what I can do to condense one down to a graphic and 300 characters or less.
I don’t know the specifics, but look up how many oil spills and leaks we have and the all these oil trucks and boats running around the world (polluting while delivering pollution)
It's already breaking down.
Our suggestion is rather than waste money on rebuilding an antiquated rusty old grid based on fossil fuels centralized generation we work a little smarter and catch up to modern tech.
That's fair, and I do agree that we need to get rid of our reliance on fossil fuels, but I'd rather have a car that can still reliably work if the road breaks, with a renewable energy source. What are your opinions on biofuels?
In terms of CO2, biofuel made with corn is on par with gas. It's not an option. Maybe algae derived fuel or something could make a difference - but it makes no sense to grow food and then turn it into fuel.
Good points, however I believe it's possible to grow crops for fuel yield but unfit for human consumption, much like livestock feed. I believe in self-sufficient local communities so I think it would be worth it so transportation in remote and rural areas doesn't have to rely on a central power grid
I would like to see cradle-to-grave analyses that incorporate various criteria, in addition efficiency, such as utility, productivity, resiliency, etc.
When they have more distance and perform better in extreme weather I'll be all about it, but you cannot charge up an electric car when you're stranded in snowy mountains. I keep hoping they'll keep making progress.
Take a look at an aptera. That would solve your issue.
Most people don't carry gallons of gas in the back - they rely on gas stations. Gas stations need electricity to run too, just like EV chargers
Aptera is interesting, but I live in the pacific northwest - getting enough sunlight while being offroad or on gravel and dirt roads deep in the trees and cloud cover in one is impractical.
I am of the opinion that we need to stop throwing all eggs into one basket and utilize everything at our hands. All or nothing does not work. > How long do you think mineral pockets will last with over 1.3 billion people (in developed countries) driving and using all variety of lithium batteries?
I have a different view than a lot of people (in the outdoor industry) from working in the steel industry, in turn working in the energy sectors, automotive, infrastructure, consumables - pretty much any industry that sources steel products, and with that learned basic metallurgy and mining.
I almost didn't see this part. You have to be specific. From the first post, it seemed you were ignoring that electric cars are most likely recharged from coal powered plants.
Solar recharged electric cars are definitely the way to go.
Thought they have tried induction roads, but they did not or were not working out? Been a while, seems they would have figured something by now? I think it's a great idea 🙂
And there's programs in Norway that divert (an owner set amount of) the power stored in electric cars during peak usage to the local houses, and recharges the battery during off-peak times. So, you also have a lot of power storage right there in the street.
Alot of us can only afford used cars. Unless those electric cars become available for $5,000 to $15,000, a vast number of Americans will need to rely on gasoline.
Ours was $12,000. It's an early model Leaf, so low range- but we bought it used in 2017 and have saved a ton of money with it. Low-mid priced EVs are out there, and the used market for EVs is growing.
Most families are a two car household. One of those two cars likely drives 30 miles a day at most. Switch the low mileage car with an old Leaf or i3 - now you have tiny operating and maintenance costs.
New equinoxes go for around 30k and that's the price of a lot of new gas cars now
They exist. And this will become more likely. Cost parity is expected within a few years for manufacturing ICE vs EV. Lifetime costs of WV's are already less. And once gas supply peaks and begins to fall the price will get more expensive.
I mean, if you MUST have a car, a fully electric with environmentally friendly static generation (i.e. nuclear, wind, solar, etc.) is the better option. But far, FAR better is if you just don't have one at all, because your public transit systems work and are reliable.
Fossil fuel propaganda hogwash. Nuclear is as obsolete as solar and wind, look at France! Their CO2 emissions are at rock bottom, while Germany, next door, is blasting out black smoke. Why? The Messmer plan.
Well, they would have been more accurate to just have "Internal Combustion" vs. Electric. An electric car powered by a H2 fuel cell is just as efficient as an electric car powered by a battery.
Oddly enough I did present the argument once that the calories humans ingest are some of the most expensive in terms of embodied energy out there. Fossil fuels intensive farming and all.
Electrical energy can be created using solar panels, wind turbines, tidal change turbines and hydro electric power from dams. All of which are far cleaner and cheaper than burning fossil fuels to create power.
I'm all for not burning fossil fuels.
Far more electricity is generated in the United States with fossil fuels.
I don't disagree with your position. Respectfully I don't think you are addressing my question. Perhaps i didn't ask it properly.
And the mining we do to the earth often in areas of indigenous people who are sometimes uncontacted tribes we should leave alone. And the slave labor they use to mine the stuff to make the batteries.
We need different, and of course better batteries, or energy storage. For years they have talked about different types of batteries, but seems nothing has come about yet.
Li-Ion has been a great development. New batteries have of course been in the works, just seems its taking so long for something new to be available for use. I've heard about sodium batteries for so long, for example, surprised they are not out by now. But, probably for reasons I don't know. 🙂
Electric vehicles are more thermodynamically sound than gasoline vehicles. We have to concentrate on fattening the power grid, to handle the demand, or hopefully more folks get personal solar power for their homes.
Agreed, but this doesn't help when you want to visit a NP and chargers are scarce. Even the link in this article to a tool to help find them doesn't work. 😕 I've had an EV (not a Tesla) for 5 yrs and love it, but I'm switching to a hybrid b/c I want to visit NPs.
Not a bad start, but it's just 6 spots with level 2 chargers. Assuming 4 chargers at each; so round up to 25 in the park. Per 1 stat I found, the park averaged more than 11,000 cars/day last June. If just 25% were EVs, that's 2,750 cars sharing those 25 level 2 chargers every day. Still far to go. 😕
I should add that I'm very pro EV (owned one for 5 yrs) and I'm not happy about going back to buying gas even with a hybrid. But with just one car that I also want to use for long trips (particularly thru rural areas with few charging options), EV-only is not yet generally viable in the US today.
Someone recently told me about going to an XC skiing event at a state park in northern rural WI where a fight broke out among the Tesla drivers over the single level 2 charger for miles around. The event was over and all the Tesla drivers needed to recharge to get home, and patience ran short. 🙄
The range of EV is the sticking point, because they have not been designed ruthlessly to a lowest weight. The virtue circle of reduced weight, leading to reduced battery weight, to greater range has not been chosen by the manufacturers or demanded by legislation.
There's still a lot of great R&D in the EV space on batteries, charging tech, etc. (though apparently *not* at Tesla where it's all robots and AI 🙄) that hopefully will continue to progress despite the forces working against it. I'm hopeful that in 5 or so yrs, going EV only/anywhere will be viable.
What I can't get my head around is while all these effeciencies are made in batteries - weight, longevity, 'greeness' , they are immediately negated by Increase in frivolous features that just use up the weight. The same has happened with ICE cars. ...
The efficiency gains of the last 2 decades just wasted on larger inappropriate SUVs. The decade old BMW i3 was probably the last attempt at an engineered EV.
However with large batteries for range, say 70kWh and the desire for fast charging, say 15min for a 50kWh top up,
Unfortunately in the US, "bigger is better" rules the day, hence why so many vehicles on the road are huge trucks and SUVs (often carrying nothing more than just the driver 🙄). And all the add-ons are a way for car companies to max profit at time of sale given push back on their subscription plans.
that's a 200kW power outlet needed. What sort of grid can support that. My village here in UK can barely support a few new houses that require perhaps 3.5kW connections.
We have been sold the idea (and willing bought into) that EVs can be the equivalent of ICE..
Longer range is not just useful for long trips. It also helps to spread out charging to more appropriate times so reducing the power capacity at the charge point, reducing costs and speeding up infrastructure rollout. Instead we have 4 tonne monsters full of crap gadgets and wasted materials
Genuine question because I am totally stupid on electric cars, but in a park like Yellowstone, how many times would you have to charge your car? I realize it depends on where are you going in the park, etc., but if you’ve been there before and are familiar with it, how many times would you estimate?
It's an "it depends" answer. It depends on the charging speed of your specific EV (at level 2, the DoT averages charging from empty to 80% in 4-10 hrs; a long wait 😕), and the specifics of your driving determine how often you'll need to recharge (driving up hills, using the AC or heat, etc).
The reason there is no system is because you don't have rider participation where it does exist. Most city busses run empty most of the time. I used public transport a LOT when I was in the city and damn I had the place to myself most of the time.
I live in the U.K. which has better public transport, but try looking to the Netherlands where car ownership is very high but with excellent public transport & cycle paths car usage is low.
Is it plug in hybrid? Similar efficiency to BEV until you run out of juice, then similar efficiency to ICE but significantly better in city driving with lots of starting and stopping due to regenerative braking. For that part, compare a hybrid like a Prius to a similar shaped ICE car like a Camry.
This is one of the facts that ev haters ignore. Caring around your own personal power station (gasoline engine) its so silly. And the regenerative breaking isn’t just energy recapture. It also reduces brake wear by what must be 50% or more (anyone have data on this?) Need we get into no oil changes?
This is just circumstantial evidence of course, but we bought our EV used in 2017 and those brakes are still in excellent shape. Tires have been the only maintenance. So, +1 to that added benefit of regenerative braking.
Agree re efficiency, but wish EVs were not completely saturated with brominated flame retardants (bfrs) given potential high temp fires from lithium batteries.
The real problem is environmental cost comparing mining and manufacturing of battery tech vs. carbon impact, and potential power. I think there needs to be a lot of added research into new battery tech, no matter the cost (monetarily), to make it viable. Right now, hybrid is the best choice.
My friend just bought a hybrid. She went from spending $55 a tank & getting 300mi to $35 for a tank & getting 600mi+ a tank. Anyone arguing against energy efficient cars is an idiot with too much money
The cobalt has been used in crude oil refinement for gas fuel for decades. And batteries for most consumer electronics since the Li-Ion battery was invented.
No one's mentioned anything for the child labor for these. Seems only an issue for EVs, which they don't currently use/want.
And not all EV use cobalt in their batteries (increasing number use LFP), manufacturers have committed to no use colbalt from such sources yet there’s no attempt to do the same for oil…
I've owned a Model S for eight years now, a 2014 model that I bought in 2017.
I'll keep it a while longer, it's still a good car, but I won't buy another to replace it.
Sure it's not as good as EV, but it's not as inefficient as gasoline powered IC. Lumping together gasoline, propane, and hydrogen on an infographic with data for gasoline IC is a little misleading.
It also says, "Modified from the original to include various combustion fuels". My linked PDF from https://energy.gov shows that hydrogen fuel cells are more efficient than the 16-25% in the infographic. A simple Google search brings up reputable sources for a 40-60% efficiency figure.
regen braking in my car is initiated by lifting my foot off the accelerator. I hardly ever touch the actual brake pedal. surely there are different scenarios.
so your car has a 1 pedal driving mode. cool. it still does not continuously regeneratively brake and pour 22% of the wheel energy back into the battery as you are hurtling down the highway. taking energy out of the wheels is how you stop a car.
If they made the harvesting process for the lithium less dangerous, and slave like labour yea the switch to electric would be good. However with hydrogen it not only reduces the fossil fuel footprint. But also the poultry footprint. As poultry feathers are integral to getting the same tank mileage
Hydrogen is harder to store. Keeping the standard tank size you can store less hydrogen than gas in the same size tank. Boiling up poultry feathers opens up pockets in the feather structure.
And incorporating them into the tank allows hydrogen to be stored in higher volumes. Getting around the tank size issue. Making hydrogen tanks as efficient as gas tanks. I'll find some citations and send em to ya.
as fossil fuel tanks can achieve. And so would significantly knock two pollution zones at once. Not to mention the harvest of the resources needed for electric batteries adds a footprint in it self. But they would also have to significantly transfer the grids that charge electric vehicles off the
Hydrogen is a non starter and there really is no lithium problem. Both are talkies of the fossil fuels industry desperate to try and slow down the switch.
I've seen plenty of footage of lithium mines where kids are working to mine the lithium. If that's not a problem then what is? I'll try and send some citations for that. And my point wasn't hydrogen good e.v. bad. But that hydrogen has more potential to reduce our pollution on multiple fronts.
lithium mining/shipping/disposal and its impacts is definitely worse for the environment though
electric vehicles use lithium batteries. they aren’t a better option in the long run. combustion engines aren’t much better but there’s no real good options
size of mining is really only one aspect. they still utilize slave labor and the environment is extremely toxic to life
there’s a comparison + it’s important to talk about. to say that one is obviously superior than the other is just another head in the sand. it’s good to still be critical.
Lithium has been found in EVERY country they look for it and in the USA it has been found in multiple sites. Almost every area where lithium mining occurring before have been bypassed by China, Chile and Argentina with Australia now responsible for 50% of global
Production.
Child labor is an issue across many industries in certain areas of the world it is in NO way specific to lithium mining and since they're moving lithium production to the US as fast as they know how it's even less of an issue.
In California fires they couldn’t extinguish the electric car batteries and had to let them burn themselves out. Inhibited firefighters extinguishing fires.
I'd like to see a citation for this. Lithium is generally benign, it does use a lot of water though. There are concerns for the heavy metals used in the anodes, but it is a small amount compared to the lithium mass. Fracking for oil, seems to have much larger environmental impacts.
All that EV's achieve is to shift complexity from the mechanical drivetrain to the battery and electronics. They have some merits, but on balance I am not a fan. The long term solution is carbon zero synfuels generated with low cost nuclear power and process heat.
In the 70's we could build it for cost comparable to coal, and many of those plants still run safely. All that's changed is the irrational over-regulation.
In cold weather there is probably more losses base on the internal system keeping the batteries above a certain temperature in EVs. But still not enough of a reason to stick with gas vehicles in the long run.
I'm confused. How does this address the lack of charging stations in more rural areas? Im not arguing the efficiency of EVs. I want to know how I can justify purchasing one when I would need a gas vehicle for longer or more remote journeys. Needing a second had vehicle is counterproductive.
This also applies to biofuels. They always seem like a neat idea until you look at the numbers and realize it doesn't make sense. If you have X tons of biomass, the car always goes further on it if you just burn it in a powerplant and charge an EV.
I hope the next time we need to buy a car, there is more variety in the types of fully electric cars. I want the last car I bought to be the last gas car I ever buy. Right now options are dominated by Luxury cars, SUVs, Trucks, and compacts. Non-$T sedans and minivans need to be options too.
This makes me wonder what the efficiency of various types of power plants and energy transport costs are. I'm not sure if the pros outweigh the cons of electric if we are still using coal power plants
"In the future, massive quantities of electricity will have to be transported over long distances. But a gas 22,800 times as harmful to the climate as CO₂ is used as an insulator in the switching systems of local distributor and transformer stations."
Have they paid for themselves yet, and how long did it take? I've heard efficiency is getting better and better, but most people gloss over the initial cost as well as maintenance
Comments
That MUST be part of the energy efficiency/pollution equation.
It may still be better, but if you don’t discuss it all, you’re telling half-truths.
We've posted repeatedly on the entire plan. Feel free to look back through our site and realize we've addressed this issue countless times.
Add Induction charging roadways using municipal scale renewable energy nodes and V2G charging and we could cut CO2 emissions significantly.
I'll see what I can do to condense one down to a graphic and 300 characters or less.
Our suggestion is rather than waste money on rebuilding an antiquated rusty old grid based on fossil fuels centralized generation we work a little smarter and catch up to modern tech.
Most people don't carry gallons of gas in the back - they rely on gas stations. Gas stations need electricity to run too, just like EV chargers
Solar recharged electric cars are definitely the way to go.
New equinoxes go for around 30k and that's the price of a lot of new gas cars now
The correct answer is fewer cars and more public transport but for those of us in rural areas, a hybrid is a good step.
I'm American and like to cool my head and heat my feet.
At the same time.
However if you cut meat and dairy out 😎
Far more electricity is generated in the United States with fossil fuels.
I don't disagree with your position. Respectfully I don't think you are addressing my question. Perhaps i didn't ask it properly.
We've gone from NiCad to NiMH to Li-ion only in the last 25 years. And that's ignoring lead-acid.
And new batteries are being developed
https://www.rankred.com/new-battery-technologies/
https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2023/new-interactive-map-shows-ev-charging-stations-near-national-parks.html
https://www.nps.gov/articles/evcharging.htm
However with large batteries for range, say 70kWh and the desire for fast charging, say 15min for a 50kWh top up,
We have been sold the idea (and willing bought into) that EVs can be the equivalent of ICE..
We're suggesting we tackle the lions share of the problem.
One charge gives us 300 and a bit miles!
Purchased in 2014. New tyres. No brake changes.
We definitely want to buy EV as the entire Li market is shifting to domestic sources with NO child labor issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-KwABFjAq0
No one's mentioned anything for the child labor for these. Seems only an issue for EVs, which they don't currently use/want.
Just some of us now recognize it.
Look up hydrodesulfurization. And realize as long as you use an ICE you're still drinking the Kool-aid.
Remember your signaling every time you pump gas or use a battery device!
I'll keep it a while longer, it's still a good car, but I won't buy another to replace it.
Please use the correct brand name. 😇
Hydrogen IC is just as bad as any other IC
Hydrogen fuel cells are still far far less efficient than EV and way more expensive.
That being said, EVs are still much more efficient.
also it looks like you're assuming the driver is pressing the brake 100% of the time
https://www.popsci.com/technology/chicken-feathers-hydrogen-fuel-cells/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a45645812/how-chicken-feathers-build-better-hydrogen-fuel-cells/
Here's a few articles
electric vehicles use lithium batteries. they aren’t a better option in the long run. combustion engines aren’t much better but there’s no real good options
there’s a comparison + it’s important to talk about. to say that one is obviously superior than the other is just another head in the sand. it’s good to still be critical.
Production.
The question is why single out Lithium ?
Yes there are some issues but no child labour.
I would consider this working towards considerably better.
Source please.
In the mean time
https://thinc.blog/2022/08/18/lithium-and-coal-in-perspective/
And lithium isn't "disposed"
It's reused.
The loss of range in the winter and the lack of charging stations outside of the most travelled corridors.
Specific example, if I'm headed north from central AB on hwy 43, there is one charging station in Valleyview.
Can't visit my parents unless I have a gas job.
Pun intended
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/01/electric-vehicles-use-half-the-energy-of-gas-powered-vehicles/
"In the future, massive quantities of electricity will have to be transported over long distances. But a gas 22,800 times as harmful to the climate as CO₂ is used as an insulator in the switching systems of local distributor and transformer stations."