What do you fine people think that Trumpists consider virtues? Set aside whether they practice them. Set aside also that your answers will not be true virtues. What do *they* think the good/admirable person ought to be like and do?
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Super interesting. I bet there's a big difference between public virtues & private virtues. I bet private virtues are pretty ordinary/old-fashioned. Public virtues seem to be so infused w/ conspiracy-resisting-trauma-avenging-action-hero virtues as to be unrecognizably (to me) virtues in real life.
Ruling a household
Being feared
Making fuddy-duddies upset
Stopping our kids from turning on us
Saying the things you can't say
Shaking things up
Getting things done
Making things Christian
Stopping ppl from bad-mouthing USA
Getting what's mine
Ejecting freeloaders
Protecting me from evil outsiders
We’re gonna set you up with a plot of land, a woman, and a militia, like we’ve been doing for millennia. Nothing needs to change anymore, and no outsiders will ever disturb us. These are human universals. What every true man wants.
Any other single thing apart from their own power to control others that they say they value they will undermine or prove to be false in some other way.
Winning. They admire him because he wins and “gets things done”. Prosperity gospel says wealth and power come to good people, so Trump must be inherently good. It’s circular reasoning and somehow doesn’t apply to his enemies, but this is part of why he’s seen as a messiah.
Not sure that I know, but there seems to be lots of admiration for strength, protecting women (who are delicate and in need of protection and support), and general trad-family stuff?
A lot of toxic masculinity traits can be both good and bad and I suspect you're right that they think the bad aspects are good. Being aggressive and assertive can be good in the right circumstances (standing up for others) but bad when they use it to attack others.
So true. My theory is that Trumpists are driven mainly by feelings of unfairness (the main narrative of Trump himself), which lets them focus on the “moral depravity” of their opponents. Viz., everything is bad because of DEI and gender decadence, but there is no positive alternative offered.
Yeah didn’t someone say the other day ( @jamellebouie.net maybe?) that they want the privileges of the 1950s man but the responsibilities and expectations of a teenager?
wealth and power. An admirable person lords it over their underlings and acquires more wealth. It's so counter to what I was taught that I can't understand it.
I think it's more the conspiracies they've bought into. To them, Trump (et al) is ridding the government of a corrupt cabal of pedophiles and unqualified 'DEI' hires, & saving us from 'illegals' etc..that it's a mission from God to save America, and any criticism of him is part of the evil plan.
(I don't know why it linked to that site with my abbreviation, haha I'm still learning bluesky obvi)
But yeah, they need a reason why their lives suck, and they have been given a very convenient & believable (to them) list of reasons why it's the liberal gov's fault, and trump can save them.
I think they would--the notion of "self-sacrifice for the family" has a lot of resonance. A lot of dudes with Punisher bumper stickers basically imagine themselves to be this meme:
Unordered
1. Taking care of one’s family
2. Willing to make “hard” decisions
3. Not having sex until marriage if you’re a woman
4. Bearing children
5. Having a job
6. Being Christian
By the way, here is the horseshoe on willingness to make “hard” choices (usually at a cost borne entirely by other people). Here it is Ehrlich on forced sterilization of people in other countries https://bsky.app/profile/sharonk.bsky.social/post/3lh2h25dsas22
@amandamarcotte.bsky.social has a good finger on the pulse of RW America, especially women. For women, the virtues are submission to white men and uncompromising dominance of anyone else, preferably with extra cruelty, all with a sweet smile and a string of pearls.
Be rich and thin. Oh, and as white as they can manage. And performatively patriotic. That’s about it. The last part is the one they are most likely to pull off.
If we’re talking about followers, I’d say it is a perception of unwillingness to bow to pressure. If we are talking about Trump himself, I think this is the wrong framing. I don’t think virtues matter in the least, it is all a calculation of who is useful.
Man this is such an interesting question. I’m trying to think of concrete examples from trumpy extended family who know our politics and haven’t been radio-Rwanda’d against us yet, like what common ground things we have that they kinda respect that I can tie into a virtue, but coming up w bupkes
That's a good question. I'm guessing they'd say traits that we might agree with as being virtuous but their definition would be different. They'd say "generosity" but they'd only mean being generous to family and friends whereas to me you'd have to be generous to everyone for it to be a virtue
Yeah. Because the trick of it is anyone they dislike is by definition not innocent, and is therefore an evil to be destroyed not a vulnerable person to be protected
Physical strength, strong in-group protective instincts, disdain for formal expertise, respect for practical knowledge, disdain for formality and jargon, disdain for expressions of compassion (in men)
I think it’s an interesting question because I think for many of them, there’s traits that they consider laudatory, but I think that’s almost disconnected from virtue as such. It’s why “virtue signaling” is such a potent insult to them.
Strength is to be feared, but it’s not a virtue. It’s raw dominance. Virtue is something that woke cucks want you to practice to neuter the strength and domination to which you’re entitled.
The version of Christianity they practice is a sick joke. It has nothing to do with self sacrifice and service and grace, and everything to do with hatred and force.
I'd say maybe some notion of "common sense", being willing to stand up to eggheads who try and obfuscate and overcomplicate things to advance their own agenda.
Like, "we have laws about immigration, so obviously anyone who breaks them is a criminal. Trump is the only politician willing to do what needs to be done and punish them."
I think Conservative Revolutionary thought gets you a lot of the way there. But more specifically I can think of three major virtues (and corresponding vices):
Strength is virtuous and demonstrated through action. Strength also establishes places within the natural hierarchy.
The corresponding vice is weakness, often embodied by "inaction", which includes things like deliberation (postpones action) or leaving things to institutions (gives up responsibility) or even sometimes agreement (requires compromise).
It is virtuous to support hierarchies that they claim to be natural despite the force they will employ to enforce it. The hierarchy is replicated at different levels of society (see @jkuznicki.bsky.social's Domus Mindset). It is supported performatively and by assuming one's appropriate role.
I think that these are not clearly delineated but blend together and reinforce each other. To be strong is to be masculine and take action and enforce hierarchy and defend family and nation. To be feminine is to be weaker and subservient and protected (more flattering is to say "complementary").
Trans people really trigger every "vice" here—they do not perform the roles demanded of them either in the hierarchy or in perpetuating the nation/family, and they require social cooperation, to exist and belong.
(That last one seems mild but it's the one that made Jordan Peterson famous.)
The corresponding vice of egalitarianism is embodied by equality, impersonalism (trusting in procedures and rules vs commands from above), status as an outsider (immigrants), and refusal to assume or support assigned places in the hierarchy (racial justice, feminism).
Loyalty to family and nation, is virtuous. Membership in the nation is established through a prolonged and inherited relationship with the land of the nation (to which a nation adapts and becomes distinct), making national membership not easily accessible to outsiders.
The vice of disloyalty is embodied by belief in equality of outsiders (immigrants) and insiders (sometimes even acceptance of outsiders into even the bottom of the order) and refusal to perform assigned roles (LGBTQ+) in perpetuating and protecting family and nation.
Because they are so steeped in essentialist thinking, the value of "blood" relations is very high. And this is clearly evident in Vance's (apparent) perversion of Catholic thought (I say apparent as a non-Catholic).
They believe that actions taken and results delivered through vague "policies" that positively impact "the right kind of" person (the REAL Americans) is virtuous, and so long as you do that, you're free to talk and act like a corrupt moral degenerate any time you want.
It's a tell that they laud and worship people who say cruel, immoral stuff all the time and have repeated bad behavior, while those who come off as decent people and vocally oppose the indecency are chastised for "virtue signalling."
Physical strength; the capacity to do violence and to intimidate;
the confidence to shamelessly seek personal advantage; to not be cowed by moralizing; and above all the capacity to hate, for its own sake, and to relish harming the objects of your hatred, as this is the essence strength.
I love this question. I think the virtues are largely the same, just corrupted by white supremacist patriarchy which exerts its own normative force. Prudence: it's common sense that men should lead, women keep the home, and children don't deviate from family values.
Courage: standing up to powerful liberal elites forcing woke culture down our throats. Temperance: largely apolitical. Justice: enforcing hierarchy, punishing liberal deviance like feminism and trans people; revenge against woke. Piety: performative evangelical Christianity and American flag waving.
I would add that these are the political manifestations of the virtues. In day-to-day living, I don't think maga people practice alien virtues. They'll be polite, not try to rip you off, give to charity, volunteer at church, work hard, etc.
I think that that's half true, but there is also a segment that very much rejects those virtues too. Like the online manchild contingent wants the RETVRN to patriarchy without any of the duties expected of them.
a large chunk cosplays the aesthetics but doesn't even understand that there *are* meaningful duties there - sure, they say the words, but when pressed, there's little comprehension
There's a crossfaction group that teaches for the aesthetics they associate with virtue but lack any deeper understanding of virtue, so it becomes a cargo cult approach.
I expect that a lot of Trump's supporters think that the main virtues are things like being honest, hardworking and God-fearing but make an exception for Trump because they are in love with him
Willpower. Fascist belief conflates will with strength, it celebrates taking action without thinking, without intellectual or academic caution. They named their biggest propaganda movie "Triumph of the Will" for a reason.
Spontaneous sincerity, in the sense of saying anything that comes into your head without regard to whether it is true or coherent. This is taken for honesty. 1/
Wealth. This is taken to be - not to show, but to be - practical wisdom and strong work ethic. Work's sole function is thought to be gaining wealth, so anyone sufficiently wealthy is thought to be a good worker. 2/2
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• Defiance
• Physical strength
(the appearance of)
• Ability to intimidate others
• Wealth
• Whiteness
Being feared
Making fuddy-duddies upset
Stopping our kids from turning on us
Saying the things you can't say
Shaking things up
Getting things done
Making things Christian
Stopping ppl from bad-mouthing USA
Getting what's mine
Ejecting freeloaders
Protecting me from evil outsiders
They don't have internally consistent logic here.
Or what can we tell based on their actions that they actually value?
That's just power and imposition of will in a way that benefits them in the short term no matter the costs to anyone else, including future them.
Exploiting the foolish
Advancing the interests of white people
Hurting outsiders
But yeah, they need a reason why their lives suck, and they have been given a very convenient & believable (to them) list of reasons why it's the liberal gov's fault, and trump can save them.
Authority must be asserted, so that those who would subvert what is good are prevented and deterred.
Attain self sufficiency, self-reliance, autonomy.
1. Taking care of one’s family
2. Willing to make “hard” decisions
3. Not having sex until marriage if you’re a woman
4. Bearing children
5. Having a job
6. Being Christian
https://bsky.app/profile/katelynsills.com/post/3lh2coifwqs2h
Being a bad person to them is anyone who says they should care about other people.
it's the "I don't want to be PC anymore" movement but with slurs
They conflate this with freedom of speech, as though the amendment enshrines protection from non-governmental consequences
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/11/trump-voters-like-lying-deception-feature/
Protecting the innocent and vulnerable (but only those who are both)
Destroying evil
They should be "proud" of [a certain narrative of] history and heritage.
They should be "self-reliant" and have "grit" or "resilience. "
They should pursue/attain certain kinds of achievement, and be proud of same.
"virtues defined in opposition"
Strength is virtuous and demonstrated through action. Strength also establishes places within the natural hierarchy.
(That last one seems mild but it's the one that made Jordan Peterson famous.)
In-group solidarity, especially against out-groups. Standing up for your own against those trying to take them down.
Hierarchy, natural order, knowing your place.
Common sense (which includes the above, plus a sort of folk knowledge)
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/study-counts-64000-pregnancies-from-rape-in-states-that-enacted-abortion-bans-post-roe
Looks like some weird rape cult to me.
https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vTFikAP6MXDCJjWzgMIOvpsT1ji-HwO-rLEvNE8e-cfCGh0YHoZluIG5TEsmwFub7MzIDfh0XgvcWL8/pub
I'm not so much interested in learning their idea of virtue as in keeping them a long, safe distance from the people I love.
"I successfully blamed someone else for the outcome of my actions" is another.
"Better them than me" seems to be their beating heart. Never committing the sin of empathy for another's suffering.
the confidence to shamelessly seek personal advantage; to not be cowed by moralizing; and above all the capacity to hate, for its own sake, and to relish harming the objects of your hatred, as this is the essence strength.
https://bsky.app/profile/ohgodscrewthis.bsky.social/post/3lgzygvcz7c2g