no word has been more abused than "engineer". you're not a "prompt engineering", you're reaching for any prestige and credibility you can find as you pull the lever on your plagiarism gacha machine
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I’m an industrial FSE (Field Service Engineer). The difference between a FSE and a technician is a FSE makes diagnoses and decisions. Techs just follow instructions. I work completely independently and can spend the company’s $$$ on my own decisions.
But my degree is in business. Company is German
No, he's not a "Professional Engineer". As long as nobody is mislead on that fact, he can call himself an engineer until the cows come home. The engineering college can and will bully him, but the Act gives colleges control of a title, not a word.
I agree that the term Engineer has been diluted in the tech field. I was a mainframe IT worker for 15 years, rising from Associate Programmer to Business Analyst. I left after Y2K. Nobody in programming was ever called an Engineer back then in corporate IT.
I’m fine being called a technician. The FSE job title comes from my employer 🤷♂️
It’s a global machine tool manufacturer and the same title is used worldwide.
There is a lower level job titled Technician but they have restricted autonomy, fewer responsibilities and lower pay.
Same true in Australia. We’re qualified under engineers international, have to complete a bachelors degree including a 1 year thesis project or level 4 cert plus 6 years experience, have a code of conduct and oath, etc.
… and also have people tacking “engineer” onto inappropriate jobs. Infuriating!
"Plagiarism gacha machine" is a nice update on the term. (Try coming up with that inspired combination in your statistically-driven algorithm, ChatGPT!)
I agree that the practice of dangerous applied sciences should be a controlled act, with a controlled title to match. That said, the engineering colleges in Canada aggressively claim ownership over all words rooted in "engineer", which isn't how the law reads in my lay understanding.
Frankly, I find the common attitudes of engineering graduates arrogant and toxic. They actually think "engineers rule the world". They don't seem up appreciate that 95% of (say) software engineering grads aren't doing protected work, and never get a stamp.
No, he's a dolphin strake (part b in the diagram).
Most trains don't have dolphin strakes because on land ships they are just skeuomorphs, but in this case they have hired this guy to be a dolphin straking engineer.
And I think even that would be the fireman with the shovel while the engineer focused on the task of making all that explosive potential not explode & instead driving a clockwork of harmoniously moving mechanical parts.
An exclusive high knowledge, high consequence position of responsibility.
My official title is "Senior Software Engineer" but I'd be lying if I said I disagreed with this. I develop web apps for Big Tech using primarily React, TypeScript, Jest, and I've contributed to none of those repos. In fact, my whole career I've stood on the shoulders of giants — actual engineers.
I was a combat engineer in the army. A woman I was just starting to date took me to her parents' house for Thanksgiving. When her mom asked what I did in the army, her face lit up so much when I said, "I'm an engineer," that I immediately had to clarify, "Not *that* kind of engineer."
I mean, we do that here as well. You can’t call yourself an *E*ngineer here without a license. And you need a degree, four+ years of work and to pass a lengthy exam to get that license.
Canada does this also, but the ceremony of the Iron Ring is unique to them.
The business world has no idea what to do with IT positions from a title standpoint. Mine has been Technician, Support Specialist, and Engineer for the same job, JUST to dance around compensation standards.
people can’t take the hit to their self esteem to be called a technician. and tbf for some reason people have zero respect for that title so i see why people take “engineer” if they can get it
Yes. Then they might give us designs that actually allow clearances for the hands and tools needed to build them. (I'm the lone assembly tech at a small company, I have to tell engineers they have given me a literally impossible task about once a week)
This is what happens when techno-cultists believe so very hard that the non-deterministic tech they think can shortcut them to money and fame is in some way controllable if you do the voodoo just right.
There was a joke about Fred Flintstone taking a job as a "resident stationary engineer" not understanding it was a custodial/janitorial job in *1965* and it's only gotten worse
Stationary engineering is serious in large structures. The last stationary engineer I knew was a former US Army Nuclear Engineer who trained under all the top Manhattan Project physicists. Comparing stationary engineering to janitorial work suggests one doesn't understand either.
The writers probably meant "sanitation engineer" and got it wrong. I had REMEMBERED the joke as "resident sanitation engineer" from seeing it in reruns as a kid in the 80s, and was surprised to be wrong when i looked up the episode to find the year it was aired.
Stationary Engineer for the millennium tower in San Fran has to be the worst stat eng gig in the nation because that tower will just not stay stationary.
I remember pushing back when my employer wanted me to use the title "front-end engineer" and I was like "bruh, I put padding on buttons".
Not trying to throw any shade on front-end-devs. That shit is hard, trust me, I did it for over a decade. I KNOW. But it's not engineering. It's something else.
Relatable. I joined MSFT in 2006 and at that time we front-end folks were "web developers". That changed a couple years later b/c it seemed to reinforce the (flawed) notion that front-end was second-class. I'm not saying "engineers" is right either, but modern front-end can be VERY complex.
Again, I did for over a decade. I know. I think my appreciation, and skillset for front-end-development waned in the same way that company's interest in keeping the web open, free and, most importantly, accessible went into the ether.
oh for sure! People are like "I'm a computer engineer, I do computer engineering" and I'm like "I have two degrees in the computer sciences and I don't call myself that."
I have a degree in computer engineering, but I don't have a P. Eng. I do have a strong pedantic nature, and that's why I've said "no, I have a degree from a computer engineering program" too many times.
One of my friends made a working game RPG engine with layering, opacity, hidden walls, dialogue trees to pass his time in college while I was struggling with algebra primitives. He's an engineer. I still haven't discovered the wheel.
Applied computer science could also describe that level of programming detail. People don't know but there is a lot of hypothesizing and trying to disprove assumptions involved.
I had this come up over the weekend, without even touching "engineer." Two guys at a game night were discussing languages, so I was like, "Oh, you're programmers too?" And one said he can't call himself a programmer, only a developer... which is confusing, because programmer feels pretty literal.
No joke, my PhD is in Computer Engineering because under Computing at my university the only options are that or Information Science.
Given Information Science is seen to be strictly library science/user behaviour stuff, there is a WHOLE LOTTA other stuff that is now apparently Engineering.
I think it’s hilarious that my job title is “database engineer.” I don’t have an IT degree, I have maybe three months of professional training over my career, but no certification. I’m largely self taught. “Prompt Engineer” is taking the piss. Up there with “data scientist.”
margaret hamilton had the best of intentions when she coined the term but the history of computing is full of good ideas being skinned alive and worn by vile capitalist swinepeople
i think at any given point in my life im like the linux version of one of those two ex-anarchist guys from the iceman cometh, and which one just depends on where you find me in life
I think we should go back to exclusively using the term engineer and engineering to refer to siegecraft and the fine art of poliorcetics until we get all this figured out.
To become an engineer in Canada, you complete a degree, then pledge in the presence of your betters and your equals to serve the public good, then you wear a ring made of a COLLAPSED BRIDGE to remind yourself of your responsibilities. You don't: log on to a website
Plus there's an ethics test that you need to pass! Honestly, that's something that I wish was required for software developers, far too many of them just don't care about the harm they cause
"Interested in being an engineer but not excited about math or real world consequences? Step right up!" [ large mechanical hand slaps you in the face ]
This is a non-compulsory group called the Order of the Engineer down here in the states. I joined it when I graduated with a computer science BS… got the ring, took the oath, etc.
My husband is a PEng. There's an entire thing to getting called an engineer, including being supervised by a PEng at work who will recommend you, an ethics exam, all of it.
It's not just graduating university with an engineering degree.
There's a version of this in the U.S. which is so optional that I had to spend weeks tracking down the one person in my university who could get me into the ceremony and she honestly seemed surprised that I wanted to do it.
I did and I still wear the (in this case stainless steel) ring every day.
The ring has sharp facets, and is to be worn on the pinky of the dominant hand. A new one is meant to catch on blueprints while you're drafting them; a physical reminder that you're not being careful enough.
I took audio engineering as an electrical engineering elective. I'd like to get mad at everyone who calls themselves that but couldn't explain how an amps and speakers work, but mixing and timing is its own art and, sure, whatever, that's fine.
Are all engineers in Canada required to be licensed? Here in the US it's basically only construction and infrastructure, and otherwise anyone with the required skills can do the job—like there are very few licensed engineers at NASA or Google
Anyway I'd rather see people messing around with LLMs call themselves engineers because there's no rules about who can than live in a world where only people with a degree and a license (and a ring?) can
Not really, unless they’re using a “working title.” Actual engineering requires at least a baccalaureate degree and usually additional technical diploma/certificates.
Yeah, if folks don't know this bridge or about the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse, and they call themselves an engineer... they aren't the right kind of engineer.
I guess they could use metal from whatever the biggest engineering disaster that year is, eg. OceanGate. Sucks if your year has a nuclear one, though...
The ceremony surrounding it is the most important thing! Participation is voluntary (it's separate from accreditation), and it's basically the engineering equivalent of taking a Hippocratic oath. https://ironring.ca/background-en/
Yeah, Canadian Engineers take their shit very seriously. As they like to put it, if a Surgeon screws up 1 person might die. If an Engineer screws up hundreds might die. So they need to be more precise, accurate and perfect than a surgeon during an operation. They've also structured their....
profession that screwing up 1 project can cost you your entire career. So if a rich guy is screaming at your about losing money and trying to push you into some cheap/fast/bad engineering with all sorts of threats, it's better for them to walk away. They are pretty hardcore.
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But my degree is in business. Company is German
It’s a global machine tool manufacturer and the same title is used worldwide.
There is a lower level job titled Technician but they have restricted autonomy, fewer responsibilities and lower pay.
… and also have people tacking “engineer” onto inappropriate jobs. Infuriating!
Most trains don't have dolphin strakes because on land ships they are just skeuomorphs, but in this case they have hired this guy to be a dolphin straking engineer.
An exclusive high knowledge, high consequence position of responsibility.
Engineering definitely doesn't deserve credit for all software everywhere, thank you very much.
"Results fuzzy! Give me something different!"
Canada does this also, but the ceremony of the Iron Ring is unique to them.
And yet I'll be blunt as hell..
Behind every good engineer is a dozen good technicians who put that sheet to work!
I've done both and A lot of electrical engineers don't realize hands on skills are critical to being well-rounded...
Frankly I think that gaining engineering degree should require Hands-On use as a technician first. It should be an N plus one concept
Not trying to throw any shade on front-end-devs. That shit is hard, trust me, I did it for over a decade. I KNOW. But it's not engineering. It's something else.
Turn off JavaScript and 90% of the web breaks.
Thanks I hate it
Gotta nip these things early, lets they get away from you.
It may even be too late with LLM prompts, I fear.
Given Information Science is seen to be strictly library science/user behaviour stuff, there is a WHOLE LOTTA other stuff that is now apparently Engineering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_the_Calling_of_an_Engineer
They just need to import the steel from the US.
Seems to be legit.
It's not just graduating university with an engineering degree.
It started in Canada with the bridge. The rings are no longer made of deadly bridge metal.
You are supposed to wear it on the pinky finger of your writing hand, to remind you while you work to do your best not to kill anyone.
I did and I still wear the (in this case stainless steel) ring every day.
Anyway this is one of my favourite Canada stories: we saw what bad engineering could do, and decided to make sure every new engineer remembered it.
😩
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/engineer-designed-bridge-collapsed-facing-discipline-1.6450110