we do not get out of this until we convince enough people that "we're better than this" is true even if you think we are very much not better than this, that's the only way to win - ThreadSky

rincewind.run • 40 days ago

we do not get out of this until we convince enough people that "we're better than this" is true

even if you think we are very much not better than this, that's the only way to win

Reposted from Asher Elbein

A big part of rescuing American civic society from fascists is going to involve ahistorical and aspirational mythmaking. Spinning a story that emphasizes the progressive parts of American history, and works to make *it* the root of the national project, not Jim Crow.

Comments

padrock.bsky.social•40 days ago

Like I believe we must acknowledge history for all its messiness, but if every time we rally and say “ America beat the Nazis” someone brings up operation paper clip, we’re not going to get very far

azery.bsky.social•40 days ago

its funny because every big power in WW2(and arguably in previous wars even) engaged in this so I've never understood why people harp on the USA so much for it. Operation Osoaviakhim from the USSR poached double the amount even!

benhosp.bsky.social•40 days ago

In fairness, I have the same reaction to people bringing that up as I do to people asking “why don’t the libs ever complain about how racist Japan is”? The answer is: because I don’t live there. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

bananashirt.bsky.social•39 days ago

i legitimately had a friend who did not know that Japan did racist, colonial oppressive stuff bc they'd gotten like all their info on history via social media, or maybe forgot everything they knew from school or both

benhosp.bsky.social•39 days ago

Yeah that’s why that rhetorical trick works. Because it’s true that Japan is a state “for” the Japanese people.

So they ask, why can’t the USA be “for” white people in the same way? As if the answer is not because it is “a new Nation, conceived in Liberty, etc”

glennmuir.bsky.social•39 days ago

I want us to go back to where we actually played golf on the freaking moon! We didn't need no rich private billionaires funds for it back then, and we sure as hell don't need it now! And if you don't think we were better than, well, we CAN BE now. There's always a first time for everything.

laurainmn.bsky.social•40 days ago

I think a defining aspect of the Trump era is people deciding that they don't need to better themselves, and a key part of getting out of it will be convincing them that yes, you do. That trying to be a good person is worthwhile.

scasburn.bsky.social•37 days ago

It's a time for having the courage of our convictions and modelling the behavior we want to see in the world, whatever it costs us. We can't save the world by raging at other people. Our only hope is to save ourselves by being what we wish those other people would be.

icouldntdecide.bsky.social•40 days ago

A whole LOT of people are happy that they've been given express permission to be their worst selves. I'm not sure those people can even be convinced

scasburn.bsky.social•37 days ago

They can't be convinced. They don't want to hear it. Our only meaningful response to them being their worst selves is to strain every nerve to be our best selves.

benhosp.bsky.social•40 days ago

Even aspiring to be a better version of oneself is condemned as “virtue signaling”. (We used to call it “setting a good example.”)

drobertsimg.bsky.social•40 days ago

America’s history largely consists of a continuous string of atrocities and, even so, we’re way better than this.

mgraalum.bsky.social•39 days ago

Pretty much everyone's history is just a strong of atrocities.

golikehellmachine.com•40 days ago

tbh i don’t even think it’s useful to point this out because a large majority of people stop reading after the word “atrocities”

lacewise.bsky.social•40 days ago

Maybe what I said about it necessarily being aspirational instead of nihilistic applies here? https://bsky.app/profile/lacewise.bsky.social/post/3lge25tyk5s2s

hollyphantpants.bsky.social•40 days ago

Mostly cuz they don't know what it means!

golikehellmachine.com•40 days ago

and insofar as it is true, it is no less true for any other nation or city state or tribe or large group in all of human history, like, to acknowledge it is to acknowledge a truth - but not the only truth, and maybe not even the most important truth - of humanity

drobertsimg.bsky.social•39 days ago

It’s a completely legitimate point. Obviously, replying on Bluesky is a pretty safe space for that sort of blunt language and it’s not how I’d suggest framing it for PR purposes. But even if you view American history through the most cynical and critical lens, we’re still so much better than Trump.

faustianfool.bsky.social•40 days ago

I think it also kind of elides the point that, like. A lot of the opposition to those things? Is also American. And like, I dunno I think it's rhetorically effective to lay claim to the better angels of American history rather than cede the ground to the neoconfederates or whoever.

bedwyr.bsky.social•39 days ago

I hear you. And yet that's the same moral language and assumption of the right wing church: "we are righteous and how dare you impune us." I've had a suspicion that the language of repentance and process and humility is the better kind: "we are far from perfect, but we must aim high to become that."

bedwyr.bsky.social•39 days ago

The language of "becoming" because that wraps up contradictions that still exist and still holds a high standard. It also has the side benefit of being recognizable to religious people as well as the Ben Franklin idea of self improvement.

bedwyr.bsky.social•39 days ago

So, "We must become better than this.""This cannot and should not be who we are, least we fall into an animalistic abyss."

bedwyr.bsky.social•39 days ago

*lest

whisperingsage.bsky.social•39 days ago

Knowing people in the past have not been better than this and deciding to do better despite them is a much more resilient long term plan than hoping people don't learn they have been lied to, even for good reasons.

That way lies reactionary tendencies.

juandenver.bsky.social•40 days ago

It almost feels like this is the manifestation of who we are or at least what are our country has done. So are we better than this?

lawless523.bsky.social•40 days ago

Or at least "we should be better than this" or "this isn't what we want."

aulddragon.bsky.social•40 days ago

"We are better than this" as aspiration rather than description.

onionamber.bsky.social•39 days ago

That is not how abolitionist won the civil war. That is not how allies won WWII. They don't want to be better, they want to be powerful.

onionamber.bsky.social•39 days ago

on second and third thoughts, I do thinking convincing the nazi-lites we believe they are better than this, is a good psychological tactic, less alienating, giving them the option of a way back.

luigithirty.bsky.social•40 days ago

wait you mean “everything we have ever done is bad and you should feel bad” isn’t a winning message in the face of ultranationalism

drsaddison.bsky.social•39 days ago

This was never the platform of Democrats, or even progressives. It's a cartoon version presented by Fox News and MAGA media/politicians. Just like no one ever told white people they should "feel guilty about being white."

luigithirty.bsky.social•39 days ago

I know it's not the Democrats' position, it's the poster's madness position.

rainsong.cloud•39 days ago

At the very least, it's not too late to start living up to our ideals. I think we can push for that, for achieving a "true" self based in what we hope to see ourselves as, while still acknowledging where we've historically fallen very short. That acknowledgement is a blueprint for what to avoid now.

dissenterbedamned.bsky.social•39 days ago

Meh, let it fall. Something better will come.

bananashirt.bsky.social•39 days ago

idk how i feel about this when conservatives pushed so hard to discredit The 1619 project and every other thing pointing out our bad behavior as a nation

i mean, you're right, and i agree, but also... *gestures* It's complicated. which is why our side is always the underdog. bc it's complicated.

bindlestiff.bsky.social•39 days ago

I need to think about this. Not at all sure that creating a new myth is the right path forward.

randymiller.bsky.social•40 days ago

Yes I don’t think the purpose here is to try to sanitize American history, it’s to be encouraged by the better elements of our past and decide which thread of our history we represent

lukemigneco.bsky.social•40 days ago

I definitely think striving to be better versus not is a big dividing line among people who have similar definitions of what better entails. Even if your neighbor is not currently better than this, might they want to be?

There's another dividing line, but that one actually might be unbreachable.

rincewind.run•40 days ago

there are a lot of really good people in America and I choose to believe that we are absolutely better than this and we should act like it

gliss.bsky.social•40 days ago

The vast majority of Americans aren't bloodthirsty lunatics who crave destruction. It's just that bloodthirsty lunatics are overrepresented in key areas like politics and corporate executives and news media.

rowlandville.bsky.social•40 days ago

I'm not convinced it's goodness as much as politeness.

America's progress (what progress there has been) is due to a few very powerful good people who locked the bad people outside the chamber until our course toward a better future was set.

The problem: Bad people always find a way in.

herrnethar6.bsky.social•40 days ago

jasonmendoza.bsky.social•39 days ago

Mmmmmm. Don’t know about that. Used to think that. Now? Not so much. Feels like a crippling lack of empathy across the board.

graced61.bsky.social•40 days ago

Nobody is stopping you. 🇨🇦 so prove it.

aprillia.bsky.social•40 days ago

https://bsky.app/profile/aprillia.bsky.social/post/3lge2vw5byk2e

dommedeluise.bsky.social•40 days ago

my idealized full naivety self-conception of what america could be, esp with regards to immigrants, comes from really loving the american tail movies as a kid. and i know thats fake and silly but yknow what it doesnt really matter if it inspired a guiding principle

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