when I read this article in the 90s, I was wholly persuaded that feudalism is not something that was particularly real, moreover, it's not useful. I haven't changed my mind, I'm afraid. And I find the "neofeudalism" etc vexing. www.jstor.org/stable/18695... - ThreadSky

lollardfish.bsky.social • 2 days ago

when I read this article in the 90s, I was wholly persuaded that feudalism is not something that was particularly real, moreover, it's not useful. I haven't changed my mind, I'm afraid. And I find the "neofeudalism" etc vexing.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1869563?seq=1

Comments

zachlev.bsky.social•2 days ago

I dunno. In the sociolegal realm, the term is useful to explain the different bubbles of governance we pass through daily. Shearing, when he used it, meant it in a more narrow way (and maybe more akin to legal pluralism).

zachlev.bsky.social•2 days ago

So in this sense, it is trying to draw to the (mis)conception of what feudalism was rather than some broader comment about the political economy.

garethknapman.bsky.social•2 days ago

A someone who studies how ‘feudalism’ shaped British colonial thinking, I can say it was real - but probably had nothing to do with Middle Ages Europe.

trenchologist.bsky.social•2 days ago

I went looking and can’t find it — sorry original idea guy — but just today someone asserted current times aren’t explained well using feudalism [either], it’s more akin to the nation is a company town. Obvs stuck with me, and I think it’s an interesting / better than feudalism way to describe it.

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

(that might have been me. I deleted that post because people said I was being too mean)

trenchologist.bsky.social•2 days ago

(Incredible of my brain to remember seeing it but not attribute it to you — now I’m boggling at the possibility it was more than you who might’ve … and you too mean? perish.)

ljndawson.bsky.social•2 days ago

PERISH

historian1661.bsky.social•2 days ago

Isn't Marc Bloch's "Feudal Society" considered the standard work on feudalism?

kdiggity8.bsky.social•2 days ago

And this is why historiography is so important. Thank you for laying this out as clearly as you did.

sarahreesbrennan.bsky.social•2 days ago

You know, I have been thinking about technofeudalism a lot, but this is great and interesting.

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

You are not alone hence me being a little surly right now. I don’t think it’s a useful concept, unless we need just erroneous ideas about the past in order to convince people that what’s happening now is bad.

sarahreesbrennan.bsky.social•2 days ago

Well, for me it was more are we turning to castlecore because we feel back under feudalism… whatever we believe that is. Possibly a case of We Have Always Believed We Live In The Castle.

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

I feel it’s a little different but related - it’s a way of responding to the dominance of these tech dudes who are so awful. But without being a Luddite, or a tradwife, etc. playful. Gendered. Not techbro.

sarahreesbrennan.bsky.social•2 days ago

I do think it brings us to that overlapping and conflicting spot between what we fear and desire. (Techbro being nowhere near desire ever at any time…)

hawkwinglb.bsky.social•2 days ago

Those Arseholes Over There Who Live In One Of Their Five Castles Keep Ruining Stuff For The Rest Of Us.

sarahreesbrennan.bsky.social•2 days ago

Yes. But also fear for what is to come meaning perhaps you could be safe with Lord Castlehole? But also the conflicting desire for revolution? *eyes romantasy thoughtfully*

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

that's interesting and not something I'd considered - the safety part. @profgabriele.com and I wrote about this recently.

hawkwinglb.bsky.social•2 days ago

The fantasia of aristocracy, the aesthetics of it, exerts such fascination. Though it's really more of a Walter Scott version of the medieval - an Ivanhoe - so very influenced by 18th & 19th century modes of thought, ways of understanding the past . Eventually it becomes a mirage, reflecting itself.

hawkwinglb.bsky.social•2 days ago

(Re: castlecore, anyway. I'm a very sleep-deprived book reviewer, and probably incoherent.)

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

I know I bore y'all a lot. And I know the argument that neofeudalism is a good and useful metaphor to defeat modern systems of exploitation, extraction, and control. I disagree, more or less respectfully. For reasons I have also bored y'all a lot about.

brainmist.bsky.social•2 days ago

(If you bored us, we wouldn't follow.

Apparently your follows aren't in it for entertainment so much as elucidation.)

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

but this article was published in 1974. Fiefs and Vassals (Reynolds) was published in 1994, showing that the best medieval evidence for feudalism was written by a small group of lawyers in a very specific place at a very specific time who weren't in fact describing reality.

akma.bsky.social•2 days ago

I was still in high school in '74, but I did an undergrad degree '75-'79 that involved a fair amount of history, and I never heard a whisper about this. It's the kind of argument I relish, so I look forward into digging into it, and perhaps being annoying about the topic in future conversations.

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

honestly, the reason I get most upset is that feudalism is a zombie that medievalists have to kill. it's not on modernists to do it for us (even if it was invented in the 19th century, so it is kinda your fault!). We've allowed it to be taught in nearly every state in the country (I checked).

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

we failed you. that's why you think feudalism was real. because medieval historians failed you.

trexpushups.bsky.social•2 days ago

Is there an article or something that would help me understand better?

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

still, 51 years ago now. Peggy Brown (RIP).

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

Someday I will have a moment to write the FAQ version, but I have noodled a bit on what's better:

https://buttondown.com/ModernMedieval/archive/questions-not-constructs-how-to-replace-bad-ideas/

claudinefrancois.bsky.social•2 days ago

Dang, this is new news to me - learning about this tonight!

dhmontgomery.com•2 days ago

“Féodalité” was a massive concept in 18th Century French debates over legal reform, through and after the Revolution.

It was primarily used in this context of 18th Century French institutions, though, with the asserted/believed connection to a medieval background.

ivanplis.bsky.social•2 days ago

Serfdom, on the other hand?

lollardfish.bsky.social•2 days ago

There were many forms of unfreedom that can be aggregated that way for sure.

xntl.bsky.social•2 days ago

Is this just a "no true Scotsman"? Historical arrangements more likely than present ones to be marked by social and political status being tied to (relative) rights over lands, dominium and imperium were less distinguishable, and hierarchical relations were naturalized?

mattstorymusic.bsky.social•2 days ago

I'm about to turn 43 and I've never heard any of this. I'm going down a rabbit hole tonight.

Comments

Posting Rules

Reply