In other news, the Journal of Pediatrics recently had a fascinating study looking at tons of other research on increasing mental health challenges with kids and found that... a huge factor is probably THE LACK OF SPACES FOR KIDS TO BE KIDS. www.techdirt.com/2023/10/26/n... - ThreadSky

mmasnick.bsky.social • 491 days ago

In other news, the Journal of Pediatrics recently had a fascinating study looking at tons of other research on increasing mental health challenges with kids and found that... a huge factor is probably THE LACK OF SPACES FOR KIDS TO BE KIDS. https://www.techdirt.com/2023/10/26/new-study-in-the-journal-of-pediatrics-says-maybe-its-not-social-media-but-helicopter-parenting-thats-making-kids-depressed/

Comments

tomkimmerer.bsky.social•491 days ago

I believe that Bike Bus may be a way to return autonomy and joy to kids. It’s a chance for kids to be together with minimal adult supervision. Bike bus kids arrive at school together and with joy. Listen to what the kids say. Bike Bus is sweeping the world.

matt.bailey.run•490 days ago

also: why tf does my 8yo have homework

kasumagic.bsky.social•490 days ago

public school had my 5 year old w an IEP copying spelling words, writing full sentences w them, and doing counting worksheets, and it was assigned nightly. would take her nearly an hour and at least 2 meltdowns, so i stopped + transferred. she only just got HW back this year at 8yo in private school

matt.bailey.run•489 days ago

boooo that completely sucks

more anti-homework as a parent than I was as a kid

zoomoo.bsky.social•491 days ago

I have also been thinking about how we turn even hobbies into constant competitions with tournaments, exams and medals everywhere :( Let's have a rowing or dancing or music festival / jamboree, not a tournament! It's ubequitous

theloner.bsky.social•490 days ago

One of the many reasons why I hated growing up in the suburbs. The computer club/marching band I went to after school in high school pretty much was my third place. A lot of folks are more willing to blame social media rather than how we designed our suburbs and parent culture.

cajsa.bsky.social•491 days ago

Yes! So many parents are ridiculous. I had so much freedom. I could ride my bike to any of three lakes within 20 miles & swim. We played on the railroad.tracks, flattening pennies. I could take the Greyhound by myself to go to my brother's or my sister's for the weekend. I feel sorry for kids today

richmondie.bsky.social•491 days ago

You amaze me.

jimlsilver.bsky.social•490 days ago

Say this 50 times every night before going to sleep: Correlation is not Causation.

incompetusrex.bsky.social•491 days ago

Outside of parking lots and near roads, I neglect my kids like the Good Lord intended.

southernviolet.bsky.social•490 days ago

Huh. Funny that. When you tell kids they aren't wanted by not giving them amy space to be themselves they, amazingly, feel unwanted. Which does a NUMBER on their mental health.

technollama.bsky.social•491 days ago

I'm going to go all Gen-X here, but what we got up to was so damn dangerous, but so much fun and I wouldn't have missed it for the world. Cycling on the roads, swimming in rivers, running around forests on our own. That's all gone.

spoilersinthread.com•491 days ago

This also should be correlated with child/teen death rates from causes other than suicide.

rosaluxlux.bsky.social•490 days ago

And the way teen drug and alcohol use went down over time. Maybe they're not more depressed, just more diagnosed.

foxy99.bsky.social•491 days ago

No interior monologue makes Jack an ill boy.

scribemarjie.bsky.social•491 days ago

So very much agree with this.

vgcatano.bsky.social•490 days ago

I spent so many weekends at the mall with my friends as a young teen, eating orange chicken and A&W burgers. Now malls actively chase away teens, and they’re going bankrupt

apocalypticanow.bsky.social•491 days ago

Problem outlined in this thread probably intensified when schools and other places were closed during the pandemic. Kids were stuck with their parents all day everyday

uniondesign.bsky.social•491 days ago

The concept of a play date warps my brain. I walked to school alone or w/ friends every day since the 2nd day of kindergarten and went anywhere and did anything I wanted after school. Cell phone didn’t exist and parents never knew where we were and no one cared as long as you were home before dark.

melastorm.bsky.social•491 days ago

It’s a compelling idea.

czedwards.bsky.social•491 days ago

This makes very much sense, especially in tween-teens. Those hours walking home after school or taking the bus to the mall to hang out for a few hours were when a lot of processing got done.

Parents can be like a yellow lab puppy, all eager and in your face, and teens need a cat in sunlight.

brigid.bsky.social•491 days ago

It's absolutely something I try to keep in mind regarding my 14 year old, yeah.

amockingbird.bsky.social•491 days ago

In Gen X but my mom didn’t work and I envied my friends who had moms who did, because they got time alone in their houses. My parents were supportive, but had no boundaries and were always there. I read a lot.

timburga.social•490 days ago

I'm GenX and my mom didn't work either so I spent most of my after school time riding my bike around the neighborhood.

sharonz.bsky.social•491 days ago

Also Gen X and my mom also didn’t work outside the home and it was a LOT to deal with. I wanted solo time.

mosteffie.bsky.social•491 days ago

Same here. I hid in my room, a lot!

amockingbird.bsky.social•491 days ago

I did then, and I do now that I’m living with them again. Much easier now I have a tv and multiple streaming services in my room.

mosteffie.bsky.social•491 days ago

I moved back in with my Dad when I was in my early 30’s and it was weird for both of us. I stayed in my room then too. 😅

lajuice.bsky.social•491 days ago

True, but I think everyone needs a cat in sunlight💕💕

czedwards.bsky.social•491 days ago

Indeed, but especially in the teen years, parents need to back off, their kid is not their best friend unless the kid says so, and even then, remember that best friend is a class, not a contest.

billflarsheim.bsky.social•491 days ago

No doubt. I rode a bus to school, but on nice days in middle school and high school, I’d walk home with my best friend. We’d stop at Baskin-Robbins, or the bookstore in the same shopping center. It gave us time to talk about anything and to budget spending our own money on ice cream or a book.

jowilliams.bsky.social•491 days ago

When I first took kid to meet school bus I was amazed how many kids live locally, all in the street for a few minutes in the morning. Where are they at the weekend? All stuck at home, there is no public teen friendly space at all. Even the park says "under 10s".

anachronym.trystero.social•491 days ago

I don't know if it necessarily had a large effect on my mental health as a kid, but the ability to just *leave the house* on my own for a few hours, without extensive negotiations and scheduling, is something that I can't imagine doing without.

hammerotass.bsky.social•490 days ago

Independent mobility and walking/cycling alone, has to be looked at in conjunction with rise of car driving. You could argue causality both ways, but when we talk about letting kids walk somewhere, "crossing the road" is a major thing, and if car numbers went straight up, it's much more dangerous.

hammerotass.bsky.social•490 days ago

That link doesn't seem to even give cars a mention, which surprises me.

twoey2e.bsky.social•490 days ago

I think about this when my neighborhood complains about kids playing in the street, where tf are they supposed to play then this a North Philly residential one-way we don’t have front yards

mmasnick.bsky.social•491 days ago

They note that the rise in mental health issues with kids seems to predate social media, and they find no evidence of social media being the cause of the mental health problems. Instead they say the limits on spaces where kids can just hang with other kids w/o parents hovering over them is the issue

opfuchs.gay•491 days ago

Ah but you see, it must be the technology because this would deny American parents their scapegoat.

lmfsilva.bsky.social•491 days ago

Anecdotal etc, but someone on Facebook with a kid at "that" age realised he didn't talk to her anymore, so out of frustration stopped being an helicoptering and let him to his own devices outside meals and sleeping time, and that actually worked as he had now stories to tell and questions to ask.

amygalford.bsky.social•491 days ago

I keep wondering about the effects of posting a child's every move on social media. And of parents staring like zombies into phones near their kids at play, talking on cell phones as they grocery shop instead of chatting with their kids, etc.

oldhoundderby.bsky.social•491 days ago

I’d wonder if @tylerblack.bsky.social (a fantastic paediatric psychiatrist) might have any data on social media and mental health in kids.

Paging Dr. Black!

mmasnick.bsky.social•491 days ago

Which actually makes me wonder if banning social media for kids actually TAKES AWAY one of the last remaining places where kids can be kids, and which might then actually make the mental health issues even worse.

thejasonkelley.com•491 days ago

Exactly my thought

solomonphotographs.bsky.social•491 days ago

@zephoria.bsky.social has been banging this drum since practically the advent of social media.

mmasnick.bsky.social•491 days ago

Yes! And wonderfully so. I always learn so much from @zephoria.bsky.social . Just noting this new bit of research...

solomonphotographs.bsky.social•491 days ago

I loved your article!

brigid.bsky.social•490 days ago

This is something we had to balance w/our 14 year old, who was building toward a mental health crisis and was isolating. Were they spending too much time online? Could social media/computer use be used as a carrot or a stick? Was it right to do so? What did they need? What supports was SM providing?

brigid.bsky.social•490 days ago

Meanwhile it's also the only place they are able to hang out w/their best friend, since we're limiting in-person hang outs due to Covid.

It's really hard to figure out the right thing to do, especially when there can be more than one answer!

mmasnick.bsky.social•490 days ago

Yes. There is no doubt that kids need resources and sources to turn to for help at times. Sometimes that can be on the internet. Sometimes it can be because of people on the Internet. My concern is simply with the blanket argument that the Internet is inherently bad for kids.

brigid.bsky.social•489 days ago

Exactly.

energetic-nova.bsky.social•490 days ago

Thank you for doing something.

I wish I had space management tools that were simple on social media. More just an adult with struggles.

whaler.bsky.social•491 days ago

As a teen talking to other kids on message boards was a life line

yohannanx.bsky.social•490 days ago

Same. The ability to talk to other young people my age really expanded my horizons. I honestly don’t think I’d be where I am in life without that experience.

marypcbuk.bsky.social•491 days ago

@zephoria.bsky.social did that classic paper about how kids mask their posts and develop codes to have privacy from their parents on social media so they can talk to other kids so that must be driven by pretty strong needs to have a space to be themselves

dman4835.bsky.social•491 days ago

I just want to know who they would sue next if they got rid of all the social media sites. Go after musicians again?

jimlsilver.bsky.social•490 days ago

It's those Wagner operas that are turning all the hillbillies into fascists!
Das Rheingold my ass!

czedwards.bsky.social•491 days ago

Anecdotally, yes — there have been multiple reports of parents taking away social media as punishment being a contributing factor to a self-harm attempt. I don’t know if anyone’s tracked the data yet (because non-fatal self-harm does matter here and it doesn’t hit ERs) but that would be next step.

mmasnick.bsky.social•491 days ago

There is some evidence that, if anything, the relationship may be in reverse: for kids who are dealing with mental health issues, and in situations where they are unable to get professional help, then they are more likely to use the internet a lot more instead.

mildlyreal.bsky.social•490 days ago

100% the Internet even in its 1995 infancy saved my life

maho-hyajo.bsky.social•490 days ago

My case predates social media (we only had IRC, forums, ICQ and MSN Messenger back then) but I can confidently say if I was cut access to them I wouldn't have survived up to 16. (Although they were far less toxic than Twitter or Facebook today).

czedwards.bsky.social•490 days ago

I remember forums and AOL chat rooms & etc, too, and they were just as toxic, but differently toxic. Getting A/S/L from someone who was clearly fishing for a 14 year old to groom?
And the nazis and edgelords and misogynists were there and out and proud, too.

czedwards.bsky.social•491 days ago

Which would make the cycle complete - kid uses internet as coping mechanism, adult removes coping mechanism, child goes into crisis.

And since the parental relationships most likely to create mental & behavioral health injuries in children are controlling authoritarians, that fits, too.

czedwards.bsky.social•491 days ago

Why I don’t do family/teen work, reason 17,048.

fraudguy.bsky.social•491 days ago

Sounds like the D&D Satanic Panic of the 80's in a new guise.

occasionalecho.bsky.social•491 days ago

Possibly. Might be more complex. Kids with mental health problems are easy targets for abuse on SM. My kid both benefitted greatly from the info available on SM but was also badly hurt in those spaces. One data point only, but I suspect maybe not uncommon.

czedwards.bsky.social•490 days ago

Of course it’s complex, but the key is where the child is getting validation and support.

mmasnick.bsky.social•490 days ago

No one is saying social media is perfect. Obviously there is bullying and other issues. But the current narrative is that social media is *inherently* harmful. And the evidence does not support that.

hybridhavoc.com•491 days ago

When things get worse they'll say it's withdrawal symptoms and only proves that SM was addictive

hipstersasquatch.bsky.social•491 days ago

I had assumed that was the point of trying to ban social media for kids, rather than implementing useful safety regulations.

hipstersasquatch.bsky.social•491 days ago

The biggest reason that social media plays such an outsize role in the lives of kids is BECAUSE of the dearth of realspace places for them to hang out socially.

jillian.bsky.social•491 days ago

i’m in my hometown right now and all the places I used to hang are gone. no roller rink, no bowling alley, the mall is dead…

ubiquity75.bsky.social•491 days ago

No arcade, the library isn’t really on kids’ radar like it should be and is asked to do too much with too little, and parents don’t let the kids out anymore, either.

maraleia.bsky.social•491 days ago

The cops never used to harass us middle and high school teens when we were hanging out in the pre-2000 era in public spaces.

aexia.bsky.social•491 days ago

We want to be parents who give their kids the same kind of space that we had growing up yet we also don't want busybody parents to call child protective services on us for doing so

rwidome.bsky.social•491 days ago

https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2023/08/03/jech-2023-221067

ianbobmorris.bsky.social•490 days ago

it would be good if there were groups that opposed anti kids existing in public laws and wanted to let kids have unsupervised places to hang out that were better then free range kids because that one seems pretty libertarian and likes the stuff haidt does

ianbobmorris.bsky.social•490 days ago

mostly i think a bunch of internet platforms have issues and i wonder if anything can be done to regulate them better, kids being extremely online is downstream of them not having meatspace places to exist

snackalgorithm.bsky.social•491 days ago

You know back in my day we were free to roam the neighborhood and meet new interesting people.

Learn some magic tricks.

annwilliams.bsky.social•490 days ago

France: that won't happen our school programs are axed around those spaces.
Parents have been told NOT TO EXPOSE CHILDREN from 0 - 10 to cells or computer screens which HINDERS COGNITIVE DEVELOPMENT

Perhaps I should translate my reform, written in french

stoffhoffshow.bsky.social•491 days ago

@dasnuf.bsky.social vielleicht eine interessante Studie für dich

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