it does bum me out how many establishment Dems are willing to move to the right by throwing whole sections of the population to the wolves but not by at all altering their stance on gun control
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Moving the platform to the right has never been the issue it's how they frame the debate falling for the rights 'think of the children' narrative around trans people instead of pushing back and framing it as a personal freedoms medical rights issue that would win them the argument
I am not so much about banning guns, but having training requirements for carrying in public. If my state wants to allow anyone who has the slightest desire to open or conceal carry, then I want to know that there is a minimum level of competence required.
What finally broke my back on the party was finding out both they and their own strategists either didn't pay attention to the state level voter disenfranchisement and illegal election reversals or don't care about it
What I'm also seeing here with the incumbent party constantly moving forward with new, increasingly irrelevant bans while we're getting trade and annexation threats...
Here I think it plays to the "that's American and therefore wrong" nationalism element pervasive in our politics too though...
My conspiracy theory is that they won't budge on gun control because they need us to feel entirely dependent upon a militarized police force and the carceral state for our safety. Like a societal Stockholm syndrome type deal, or what have you.
At this point, responsible ownership is such a low priority compared to disappearing people without due process, defunding Medicaid, pissing off every single ally, etc.
I grew up in rural western Montana in the 90s and this was without question the #1 thing that pushed a lot of folks who would have otherwise been more concerned with public land access and lack of decent healthcare infrastructure solidly into the arms of the GOP and even worse actors.
And that's not me saying a lot of those people necessarily had the most progressive views on everything (although this state *did* used to be more notoriously purple and even a different shade of red at points) but this *was* a wedge that was skillfully exploited to push them to new extremes.
I dunno, I see a lot of people that, when you talk about *issues* aside from 2A, agree with the populists in the Dem party. But the don't know it b/c the 2A issue blinds them. Drop guns bans/control entirely from the party platform, and you could--*could*--start gaining those ppl.
I’d be way more patient with Dem politicians whose #1 thing is gun control if I believed they would be committed to doing court packing on a level that would have the WSJ calling for a military coup
As a Coloradan this rings incredibly true. There's no mandate for it, even liberals here don't want it, yet they're trying again for the THIRD year in a row, and the bills just get more and more insane. At one point they wanted to ban every gun that has a removable mag. Just fucking unbelievable
It is crushing. People I love walk around scared because of the hate these right wing assholes whip up. Where are the spines in the dem party? We have no heroes to stand behind
I feel like relaxing about gun control would be one of the easiest ways for dems to win over moderate Republicans. I can't fucking stand the dem party anymore
Hell , just get more educated on what reasonable gun control entails, and about guns in general. Most of the criticism of Dem stances on that issue is about how ridiculous they look and sound talking about it
It is still frustrating that all their talk about human rights and acceptance was for show
Background checks should be a no-brainer (I think you could probably have gotten the votes to open NICS to the public for most of the last 25 years), but the Dems think they need to call a private transfer ban "background checks" when they know they don't have the votes.
Did you know that california only allows dealers to sell handguns that are on an approved handgun roster (some exemptions) however police officers are exempt and can make lots of money buying handguns missing from the list and reselling them for double the price in private party transfers?
1/2 There is no "gun show loophole". If you are an FFL holder, you have to run NICS and have all buyers fill out a form 4473, regardless of where you sell. P2P sales--selling a personal firearm--is not regulated by the fed gov't, but is by some states.
2/2 The problem w/ P2P sales is that FFL holders have to retain records; that would mean giving your PII to a regular person, that then holds on to it forever. Or, alternatively, requiring all sales to go through gun stores, which adds a financial burden.
Yeah! Silencers? Literally protect you from hearing damage, and are REQUIRED for range shooting in some countries, but people have seen too many movies and think the only reason you'd want one is because you're a professional assassin. It's so dumb.
I am a Californian.
All my gun hobbyist friends have a positive opinion on gun control, they just want people who know about the subject matter to write the legislation.
I have nothing but negative opinion on gun control (as the laws are enforced on a bigoted basis) and I think metal 3D printers should be more common and any munition the government procures the citizenry should be able to as well, but in the mean time check out the gatalog!
I'd take it a step further and say there are gun positive and reasonable positions dems could take. There should be some amount of gun safety education in schools for instance. Fire arm related injuries, often unintentional, are the main cause of child deaths.
I definitely think there's room for a bizarre new constituency that exchanges some gun control laws for others - jettison the NFA, GCA, etc. to allow suppressors and machine guns again in exchange for a Switzerland-style background check system (just gives a yes/no on if transfer is allowed)
i get and have a lot of sympathy for people who hate guns and wish we didn't have any but i have nothing but disgust for someone who decides "migrants and trans people can go fuck themselves but i will never stop tilting at the windmill of banning AR15s"
As a Canadian this makes me pretty angry because NOW is the time those guns are supposed to be useful but leftist gun owners appear to be sitting on their hands while the fascists prepare to invade where I live.
Much of Europe has a huge number of guns - As does Canada - but we do not have America's problem with school shootings because there are things like "Background checks" and "Laws about how they have to be stored"
There are a lot of gun control measures other than "Ban outright"
But Americans can't stop killing their own children under the pretense of having guns to resist fascists. Fascists that are currently in power and about to violently attack a country that has had your back pretty much unconditionally for a century and those guns are doing nothing.
Don't throw the trans card at me. I am trans, I have two trans siblings, and I live in Canada's texas. I also am strongly considering getting a gun, because I might have to shoot it at americans who invade where I live in the near future. Because Americans who have guns did not use them to stop this
If Americans rose up right now and fought back against the fascists, my stance would change in a heartbeat.
I also don't and never have supported banning all guns. But I'm sick of watching school shootings, and the armed resistance to fascism just isn't fucking materializing.
If thats the will of the voters you follow but it's cool to tell trans kids to pound sand? Well, then you and your voters can eat shit and die. You want a cookie for snuggling up to the fascists just so you can still lose a fight you were gonna lose in the first place?
The whole point of the post you're responding to is that the Dems won't move right on guns, an issue that their voters feel strongly about but that doesn't seriously alter civil rights in this country, but are gleefully moving to the right on migrants and trans kids.
On migrants: yes/no. I live in WA, a major agri export state. Pols here fully grasp the critical importance of immigrant labor. But also: ICE detention at SeaTac (fucked up!)
"moving right on trans" = #unforgivable (& stupid AF)
But I don't see how moving right on guns helps, given polling.
again if you've always said that and continue to say that while standing up for trans constituents and migrants then I am not complaining about you here. it's the people who made those compromises but won't make that one.
I'd love to see dems having an actual discussion about the actual issues with guns. Many countries have access to weapons, but in the US a gun is both a masculine totem and a bible for some people. It's a lot harder to fix an issue that is at a cultural level.
As I see it, you can’t close Pandora’s Box. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US, and the far right has a lot more of them. The only thing most gun control efforts will accomplish now is to make it that much harder for activists and marginalized people to defend themselves against them.
“I don’t give a fuck about taking your guns, I want to stop shooters” would play pretty well I think. You could probably get some good gun control out of that too. Do a moral panic but for good.
Not until you have 60 D’s in the senate because not a single Republican is willing to vote for gun control of any kind (unless it’s minorities arming themselves).
I like the idea of responsible gun owners. Most gun owners are not nut jobs. Almost every hunter I know stores their guns securely. Others refuse to and that leads to a lot of tragedy. Toddlers shot more often than we’d like to think
The assault weapons bad was the last successful push back the democrats had against republican dogma, that's why I think the old guard sticks to it so ardently. I don't think there will be another success like it for a long time to come.
(to be clear i don't think moving right on guns would help Dems more than moving right on anything else helps them. the whole tactic is a disaster. but being immovable about assault weapons but willing to debate trans people's human rights is fucked)
And then there's me. The trans woman who owns AR-15's and trains with them regularly. I went far enough left that I got my guns back. It's fun being on this end of the spectrum, and I wish more establishment dems would try it.
I don't think they even realize they don't know what they're doing. They're just doing what they've always done and expecting different results. Why change strategies when what you've been doing almost never works?
The right is far more intimidated by the trans/LGBTQ communities than by guns. Our insistence on bringing up the subject, constantly, was used against us and helped the right band together. We should've seen that and knocked it down a notch. Our loss was the loss of those communities.
Ohhhhh fuck off.
It was the rightwinger's who have been utterly OBSESSED with our existence since they lost the fight over gay marriage.
They've spent BILLIONS on fearmongering & hate and the ONLY reason they've gained so much ground is because of Dems HALFASSED CAPITULATION
I get it. But, I guarantee the right would be highly disappointed if we were to not make the issue constantly mentioned in our speeches. We hung ourselves.
By “bringing up the subject constantly” you mean LGBTQ communities brought up their own existence and people on the left accepted it. The idea that if only we hadn’t given the right such a prominent scapegoat is immoral cowardice and NOT how this works. They just would have found a different one.
By “bringing up the subject constantly” you mean LGBTQ communities brought up their own existence and people on the left accepted it. The idea that if only we hadn’t given the right such a prominent scapegoat is immoral cowardice and NOT how this works. They just would have found a different one.
as a trans person who is very very scared of someone invoking their legal right to self defense/trans panic next time I use a public bathroom: can we get some better rights?
(I'm shamelessly piggybacking to state the obvious for the folks at home): It's because they see guns as a threat to themselves, whereas transphobia is "just" a threat to trans folks.
But Ol' Jim Bob who's only got five fingers between both hands on account of all the improvised explosives and who keeps talking about "Tekken down da man" isn't a concern simultaneously
To be fair the last democrat I talked to about guns told me as a trans person in Texas who doesn't carry, I must want to get "hate crimed". I don't carry because of mental illness, not just mine but my partner's as well. That wasn't good enough for him and he yelled at me over it.
Yeah. I know how dangerous it is here. I'm one of many who can't leave and it's scary af. Doesn't mean guns makes suicidal people more safe, doesn't mean we deserve to get yelled at and told we want to be murdered.
Anyone telling you that is a gigantic asshole and I have spent more time telling people not to buy a firearm if they experience suicidal ideation lately than giving advice on guns.
The dynamics of social media tend to make people adopt black and white stances and become raging assholes about it.
There's an intense temptation to do it now because of the trans panic, but anyone waffling on the issue, officials or regular liberal people, must be met with a firm and thoughtful response to dissuade them against sadism, and persuade them of trans people's place in the patchwork of humanity.
Oh man, this. Had another infuriating chat with my dad this week, wherein he mused "actually Newsom is right to shift on this, most voters feel like trans athletes are unfair." This same man would still say no civilians should have guns, even though the fash are quite openly fash-ing.
And yes, I lost my everloving mind at him over his pathetic regurgitation of Rahm Emanuel and Bill Maher talking points, and it won't be the last earful he gets on the matter.
I wish they would drop this "assault weapon" bs, made up term to scare people...a AR 15 is just a rifle, nothing super powerful, not magicly turning owners into highly effective killing machines. It just go pew. (I still vote for Dems even if it hurts...gotta keep the fash out)
I have a coworker who is pretty progressive personally, and yet voted Republican consistently up until Trump ran, because she wanted to secure her gun rights, and she didn't think anyone was going to seriously do anything major like overturning Rov v. Wade.
Quite frankly, it’s their positions like this that has me wont to just start voting third party or not vote at all. They are deeply out of touch with their electorate whereas the Republicans successfully groomed theirs into compliant puppets.
The Democrats have made it clear that they are unwilling to be an effective opposition to the Republicans, but they still hold that position, preventing the formation of an ACTUAL opposition party, and they will remain there as long as they can scrape together a bare minimum of donations and votes.
Are you wanting to start to carry? Is it going to be sitting on the nightstand ready to go? Gun in one safe ammo in a different one? Realistically how much will you train range time with it. Lots of choices depending on the purpose
Get TWO(to start)
A handgun (glock or variant based on glock)
And a rifle (ar15 in 5.56nato for max options)
Get a good light and optics for both.
And seek out training both with firearms AND StopTheBleed courses.
Stay safe Stay Dangerous💜
Yeah, it shows that their stance on gun control is mainly symbolic, because if their not willing to protect life through other avenues then what's the point.
Gun control as a policy is politically "cheap". You can push for it without brushing against any of the more fundamental economic interests
Gun control was a reaction to a protest of 30 members of the Black Panthers on the steps of the CA statehouse in 1967 armed w/ .357 Magnums, 12-gauge shotguns and .45-caliber pistols & announced, “The time has come for Black people to arm themselves.”
Racism played its part, politicians like then CA Gov Ronald Reagan helped pass the Mulford Act, a state bill prohibiting the open carry of loaded firearms, along with an addendum prohibiting loaded firearms in the state Capitol. Also helped jumpstart a surge of national gun control restrictions.
The wave of laws that were passed in the late 1960s regulating guns, targeted African-Americans AND the NRA fought alongside the government for stricter gun regulations to keep guns out of the hands of African-Americans. Today’s politicians want to keep guns out of the hands of those they oppress.
Ultra rich Dems maybe. I see it as more of a city-dweller mindset, where gun control resolves to less crime, when it's not that simple. I always push back with "everyone has the right to defend themselves," and that circumstance is different for each person.
I think that people sometimes forget that they think they have less guns on their streets, when really they are just outsourcing their guns to people called “private security” and “cops” that they call whenever they want men with guns to shoot people for them.
I think it would help them a LITTLE more than most of their rightward moves, in that I don't think it would meaningfully reduce the votes they get, whereas I think throwing trans folks and immigrants under every possible bus actually costs them a lot of votes.
I also think there's a low-but-not-zero chance that the Rs under Trump end up being a lot less friendly to gun rights than they have been in the past, which could change some of the math IF the Ds are smart enough to take the opening. I'm not confident they would be tho!
The ONLY way that would actually work is if maga's start frothing at the mouth again to disarm minorities.... That's NOT a winning strategy for anyone except Nazis.
The party strategy around gun control is emblematic of their ineptitude at leadership 1. Nibbling around the edges of the issue effectively doing nothing
2. The NRA is basically cucked but still no meaningful movement forward by dems
3. Dogmatic inertia to any changes in strategy or priorities
I think the stance should be on responsible gun ownership. For example CO passed a safe storage law so when kids are in the house, the guns have to be locked up responsibly. That alone would have stopped the shooting my son survived.
My feelings about gun control changed when I realized that, much like abortions, even if they're illegal, people will have them. At this point, it just feels like another policy to criminalize marginalized folks and feed the prison industrial complex.
The Mulford Act. It disallowed the open carry of firearms. NRA signed onto it.
They also attacked 30 caliber weapons because that would indirectly target military surplus rifles that were cheap and thus popular among the Black Panthers. Military surplus used to be a common way to get hunting rifles
Ehh not quite, you can walk it back to the National Firearms Act of '34 that was in response to Prohibition empowering organized crime.
Of course the criminals just... paid the newly deployed taxes on regulated arms. The commoner however, welp. $200 tax in '34 money is nearly $5k today.
You're not wrong, but my point is tailored more specifically to what might be called "civilian-targeted non-conflict related gun control" in the modern sense of the word, where there is little justification beyond bureaucracy & flawed sociology. Gangland bannings & Native disarmament were different.
Guns were woven into our creation of our country. Our rights, for better or worse, are based on the implied threats of armed revolt and federal raids. "Guns are American" is the position one needs to view gun policy from IMO.
The #1 thing that motivated conservatives to legislate gun control in recent history--and the MFing NRA no less--was the Black Panthers exercising their 2A rights in public.
They have been virtually silent at every turn ever since
My politics are entirely unrepresented by any political party in USA. Wanting to improve the quality of life for living beings is a fringe position in this country.
Dems perpetually make the mistake of assuming that, like conservatives, their constituency are universally single-issue voters. They think nothing they can do will be bad or cost them votes, as long as they don't touch the golden cow. Dems are slightly more complex than that.
For realz my dude. It’s always bothered me to see the supposed party of change willingly defang their base through rhetoric. Kinda feels like a discourse set up to trap activists in a superficial battle with superficial weaponry against real regressive shitbags with real weapons.
basic credibility problem when any 12 year old who's taken a hunters safety course can explain why the dems gun control policies are complete nonsense.
It's a poor and very cynical political calculation. More than half the country wants gun control, but even progressives debate (pointlessly) trans participation in athletics.
What they're missing is the demand for authenticity, which you can convey by defending everyone.
I think the issues of gun control and abortion are quite similar, in that one side sees it as an inalienable right and the other sees it as an unquestionable moral evil.
"People buying guns should be required to know how to use them, and possibly register ownership" isn't even remotely on the same plateau as "Women: we don't think they're sentient or at least that they shouldn't have autonomy"
The forced birth camp's version of "registration, insurance, and common sense assault weapon bans" is "we only want to ban late term abortions after 12/8/6 weeks and make sure women are aware of other alternatives, and clinics should be held to the same standards as hospitals"
But putting wholesale bounties on women and doctors should have been the, like.
"Wait a fucking minute" moment - even for those people who don't understand you can't just ADD six inches to a hallway of an already constructed building.
Those who see it as an evil are willing to reject subject matter experts, distort facts and statistics, and use any legal lever they can to undermine the other side. It becomes a litmus test for candidates, and a huge amount of public discourse is spent looking for rhetorical gaps in the armor.
The side that sees it as a right are unwilling to compromise because they see any partial regulation or restriction as a move toward a total ban -- and in both cases they are correct -- and a move toward stripping other rights.
The Republicans have 70% won on abortion despite weak public support for their positions because they are better at using power than Dems, most of whom are feckless careerists.
Republicans want to make life worse for everyone. A majority of voters don't believe they'll succeed. Democrats have no intention of stopping them. Result? Life gets worse for everybody.
They both also tend to use the exact same "you're literally murdering children" assertation in lieu of any actual argument when they are presented with facts/statistics/experts etc
It's okay to have access to guns, but letting everyone have them is also pretty dangerous. Think the Dems might want to stay put on this issue. After all, mass shootings are still a thing. I get that some guns laws are dumb, but some are very popular.
A simple approach to gun control: if the police are allowed to have it so should your average citizen. We should extend that to vehicles as well. If the police have a 10-officer 16,000-pound armored tank that takes bullets like Superman and drives 80 mph, we get them too. Level the playing field.
FR. Don’t tell me Trump is a fascist bent on destroying democracy out of one end of your mouth and tell me you want to take away my guns out of the other. Trump is already talking about red flag laws. Do the Dems not think he’s going to abuse that?
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you have two fake parties operated by the same group.
Who will you throw under the bus? Will it be blacks? Gays? Trans people? Kids? The disabled?
Who you gonna leave out in the cold to make room for a handful of mythical “moderate Republicans?”
So far, no answer.
Full aristo mindset
Functionally it doesn't matter which.
https://bsky.app/profile/kaitensatsuma.bsky.social/post/3ljpskjmu4s2i
Here I think it plays to the "that's American and therefore wrong" nationalism element pervasive in our politics too though...
It is still frustrating that all their talk about human rights and acceptance was for show
But like shouldn't you know what a bump stock does before you ban it?
All my gun hobbyist friends have a positive opinion on gun control, they just want people who know about the subject matter to write the legislation.
Guns are the leading suicide method in America 2 to 1.
It never really comes up in these discussions that the person a gun is most likely to kill is its owner.
Removing the firearm will just make people who are wanting to commit suicide find alternatives.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC478945/
There are a lot of gun control measures other than "Ban outright"
I also don't and never have supported banning all guns. But I'm sick of watching school shootings, and the armed resistance to fascism just isn't fucking materializing.
What if your voters put you in office for that very purpose?
WTF are you talking about?
I'm talking about AR15 bans.
JFC dude.
"moving right on trans" = #unforgivable (& stupid AF)
But I don't see how moving right on guns helps, given polling.
Got it. But I'll still cut Sen. Chris Murphy all the effing slack in the universe.
Until and unless he cuts that kind of shit out, he deserves no slack.
It was the rightwinger's who have been utterly OBSESSED with our existence since they lost the fight over gay marriage.
They've spent BILLIONS on fearmongering & hate and the ONLY reason they've gained so much ground is because of Dems HALFASSED CAPITULATION
"the racists will just give up on oppressing black people if uppity blacks would just shut up and sit at the back of the bus"~YOU circa 1955
You do NOT capitulate to fascists.
And this leads to serious problems when the party can't distinguish a tactic from a strategy.
I wonder if it's going to result in a "Bipartisan Bill" they can all pat each other on the ass over.
The dynamics of social media tend to make people adopt black and white stances and become raging assholes about it.
Whether or not they're just picking it as their favorite excuse and shift the goalposts if Dems promised a gun in every hand..
My take: arm minorities.
Are you wanting to start to carry? Is it going to be sitting on the nightstand ready to go? Gun in one safe ammo in a different one? Realistically how much will you train range time with it. Lots of choices depending on the purpose
A handgun (glock or variant based on glock)
And a rifle (ar15 in 5.56nato for max options)
Get a good light and optics for both.
And seek out training both with firearms AND StopTheBleed courses.
Stay safe Stay Dangerous💜
Gun control as a policy is politically "cheap". You can push for it without brushing against any of the more fundamental economic interests
All types of rifles combined make up about 4% of all murders.
If they’re willing to start a culture war about ~4% of one thing, they’re willing to join a culture war about ~4% of another thing.
If stopping Palestinian genocide is too inconvenient…well you know.
Go far enough left and you get all the guns back.
Community defense is self defense. :)
But the likelihood of rich Dems wanting to arm the working class is approximately fourth of never so it works more as a thought exercise.
2. The NRA is basically cucked but still no meaningful movement forward by dems
3. Dogmatic inertia to any changes in strategy or priorities
They also attacked 30 caliber weapons because that would indirectly target military surplus rifles that were cheap and thus popular among the Black Panthers. Military surplus used to be a common way to get hunting rifles
Of course the criminals just... paid the newly deployed taxes on regulated arms. The commoner however, welp. $200 tax in '34 money is nearly $5k today.
Shit's always been racist at its core.
The #1 thing that motivated conservatives to legislate gun control in recent history--and the MFing NRA no less--was the Black Panthers exercising their 2A rights in public.
They have been virtually silent at every turn ever since
What they're missing is the demand for authenticity, which you can convey by defending everyone.
"People buying guns should be required to know how to use them, and possibly register ownership" isn't even remotely on the same plateau as "Women: we don't think they're sentient or at least that they shouldn't have autonomy"
"Wait a fucking minute" moment - even for those people who don't understand you can't just ADD six inches to a hallway of an already constructed building.