But viruses are not organisms. I get that it's evolution and everything breaks down to the idea of bacteria. But be like me saying that fungi and mammals are the same. There can be a common ancestor from the past but it's huge stretch. Unless we are getting philosophical then everything is stardust.
The fact they're not alive but act like living organisms has always weirded me out. I call them microscopic robots because it's the only way my brain can comprehend it.
It's actually pretty simple: you just have to realize that photons aren't physical objects like we're used to, and they also aren't waves like we're used to. They're just different from that. They behave in ways that are similar to both. You just have to let them be their own thing
They're not classical particles and they aren't classical waves, but aspects of their behavior at high levels (low information) can be modeled with both classical waves and classical particles. I think adding the "classical" qualifier helps make the point more clear.
Literally hours ago I told my nine year old that light is both a particle and a wave and then told him I have no idea how. This is the explanation I always needed! Thank you!
I was recently thinking about this and thought that viruses are the projectile weapons of the microcosmos, but they never should have made them self-guided!
*but the wildest thought was considering if they were used for genetic AirDrop* I guess I should become a microbiologist.
Thanks friend! Maybe when my kids are older I’ll head back to school. I want to note that I meant that comment as an indication of my curiosity and not my own genius hahahaha
I personally think they evolved at the same time as cells, at a point where cells were just foam of water and fat filled with nutrients and self-replicating molecules.
Some molecules evolved to use the DNA replicators without contributing anythong.
And it's not even really fringe, the megaviruses kind of opened the floodgates on it. It's just fighting against the whole viruses/life battle and it's also kind of squidgy to think about.
I think just the role of viruses in general and as the origin of the Nucleus specifically
Someone on a microbiology blog brought it up it to me as their "thing that will be obvious in retrospect in thirty years" and these two guys keep getting more evidence.
But that is the way with many parasites. They de-evolve (? kinda), becoming simpler, because they no longer need things like legs, eyes, mouths, etc. Some even shorten their DNA (although paradoxically, some get more?).
An epidemiologist friend told me norovirus is not killed by hand sanitizer and you have to physically wash your hands with soap and water to remove it. Do you know why? Are there other viruses like that?
I thought it was still unclear whether viruses had shared origins with cellular life either coming before or after. Or had unique origins from cellular life
We tend to focus on the virion that infects as when we think of "a virus," but that's really just one stage of a viral life cycle. It's arguably just as valid to refer to the viroplasm or viral factory as "the virus," and in this framing the debate about whether its alive becomes more interesting.
Considering viruses cannot replicate without a host, this would suggest that the host must have come first.
There are several species of bacteria that can no longer replicate without a host, and transitional giant viruses that still contain garbage genetic material for self-replication.
This would apparently seem to demonstrate that most viruses are probably descended from bacteria (or archaea) that became lazy parasites and lost all ability to replicate outside of a host. We're watching the process happen in realtime with several bacterial diseases.
How early viruses or proto-viruses evolved is up for discussion, however even a very early proto-virus suggests the existence of an earlier self-replicating organism.
That there was some sort of further mechanism is inevitable but that the further mechanism is what we understand as a cell is unknown.
Life as we know it can’t show up until there’s a self-replicating nucleic acid. A cell provides that but a whole cell doesn’t instabamf into existence as a whole.
Pre-cellular life could have been complex biochemical assemblages attached to surfaces rather than encased in a cell and they could have been preyed upon by parasitic elements.
Parasitic animals basically did the same thing right? Descended from free-living animals and then started losing organs and such from their free-living days.
I think about how we all have a virome that’s made up of trillions(?) of viruses. They are now a part of us. Since humans study viruses, does that mean, in some weird way, that viruses evolved to study themselves?
Do you have any thoughts about genetics work on RNA/DNA mirror segments, and how that could lead to forms of life that are mirror opposites of natural life, which have nothing in the natural world to neutralize them?
Hey, we all share the giant biodome of Earth. We are here because of all the other things we don't like as well as the ones we do like. Neighbors in a spaceship just kinda traveling around. Like I have a choice, but I'll take it just fine.
As a layperson, I see evolution as forwardness into a selected niche
eg
I’m a 3ml long shrimp/fish deep in a cave or far below ocean surface and my ancestors long ago lost the ability to see much light - did my ancestors devolve????
To “devolve” is not a technical term in biology. Your ancestors definitely evolved tho. Evolution is just descent with modification, whether that be towards increased or decreased complexity. Nothing to do with “forward” or niche. Evolution doesn’t even have to involve natural selection or adaption
i mean something could devolve via artificial selection like if someone wanted to breed dogs to be missing their hind legs they could do that and that would be devolution imo
It would still be evolution. It is still going forward. Devolution implies going backwards in time. So, no. I understand your point, but please try to understand what evolution is. It’s not the process of becoming better. That’s natural selection which plays a role in evolution.
At least three (maybe 4) instances of natural selection evolving something that was once alive to be dead. Viruses (phage and eukaryotic viruses), mitochondria and chloroplasts. Survival of the fittest ≠ staying alive.
Does it not make sense that a parasite would evolve after the host? You wouldn’t expect to find mouth bacteria if no mouths evolved yet. Can virus’s infect other viruses?
Or maybe they didn’t and we are wrong. We are portably wrong about some things still.
Is that upsetting? Compared to, like... Photosynthesizing versus eating the thing that photosynthesizes? Or eating the thing that eats the thing that photosynthesizes?
It kind of is if you consider that the things that evolved into viruses were once ‘alive’. Their descendants have basically been reduced to a set of instructions.
I think it is more accurate to say that some of their genetic code went wonky. Is less their offspring and more parts of their bodies quit working correctly.
Possibly. And you gotta admit that the result was wildly successful as far as reproduction goes.
I think it’s also disturbing in its general implications. Cancer is also a devolution, as Hank has pointed out. And some cancerous cells, like HeLa, have effectively reached immortality.
Also my favorite case of this is the Apicomplexa phylum: ate the thing that ate the thing that photosynthesizes and still became (mostly) obligatory endoparasites
My understanding was that viruses or virus-like organisms existed before cellular organism in what used to be nutrition-rich oceans. Once cellular organisms evolved, they quickly consumed whatever nutrients were freely available. Therefore, only parasitic viruses could survive afterwards.
By nutrition I mean building block stuff like amino acids which were supposedly plentiful in early Earth's oceans. So the free-living viruses could simply use them to replicate. Once cellular organisms took over, the only place with amino acids was in these organisms.
Yes and no. At one point there was probably a soup of organisms running the whole gamut of what we would consider a virus proper and a cell proper, living in abundant biochemical building blocks. some of the strategies that viruses use were probably developed all the way back then.
So glad I’m not this smart, otherwise I’m sure a lot more would make me sad. I’ll settle for over analyzing starwars until I find details that upset me.
That’s so upsetting! I feel the same way about Dendrogaster. There’s something upsetting to me about a creature reducing its complexity to become a parasite, and I can’t put my finger on why
Idk but agreed, I think it reifies the fact life's just dead stuff trying to make more of themselves, and there's just no cost too great to spread and spread...
There's maybe also a body horror aspect, that inspires a Matrix-like "humans forced into being batteries" thing, though in reverse?
The only terrestrial (non insect) crustacean parasite is pentastomids. So if one of those goes hyphae perhaps. But you'd still probably have to eat bushmeat for it to get into you
OMG I hate (but am strangely compelled by) everything in this thread!
Also, looked up Rhizocephala, which I did not know about, and I would just like to say that I'm fine with never seeing the phrase, "parasitic castrator" in print ever again.
This also really makes me think the definition of "alive" is more like the definition of "species" in terms of squidginess, and that is DEEPLY UPSETTING.
Its likely virus's evolved from being predated. An evolutionary pressure so strong they evolved to survive that predation and eventually came to rely on it as part of their life cycle. Slowly losing unnecessary bits along the way until their entire life cycle relied on getting into the cell.
We lost a family friend to Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease two summers ago. It can lay dormant for 50 years so nobody knew where it came from. Her family very lovingly donated her brain to BU's bank. There's a lot of interest & scant research
Thank you. I really felt for her family. One day shortly before the birth of her granddaughter, she slipped into a coma and didn't come back. The disease is always fatal.
It's even more upsetting to me that some cancers are descended from whole animals.
Like Canine transmissible venereal tumour.
The cancerous cells have dna of a dog from 6000 years ago.
cancers almost always start out as one of our cells. that's what they are. tho... some become hybrids of cells and a virus, if the virus induces the cancer. i.e. look up HeLa, which i predict can one day evolve into a free living critter? i have hopes.
I went down this rabbit hole a little when someone was comparing covid to cancer and people were "but cancer is not contagious" and I thought generally true but some viruses predispose you to it.
I was aware of the Tasmanian devil cancer at this point but did not think there was a similar case in humans, but I always check.
So according to Wikipedia when I checked there were the transplant cases and the tape worm incident, plus 7 viruses known to predispose you to cancer (such as HPV).
Parasitism is an incredibly efficient method of propogation, unfortunately. It is a pure expression of the inherent violence of being. Viruses are the true masters; humans are amateurs at it, relatively speaking.
I'm not up-to-date on the research but I thought there was an idea that some viruses come from free-living organisms, and others evolved from jumping genes?
I have two finnish lapdogs, and both saw 2 horses walk past our property today and decided to tell the whole world that is not okay in their book. That went on for a good 10 minutes. I have a migraine.
in one interpretation you are a meat ship piloted by viruses that actively modify slave bacteria to release brain altering chemicals that ultimately serve the survival of the virus colony. that is more upsetting IMHO
Comments
*but the wildest thought was considering if they were used for genetic AirDrop* I guess I should become a microbiologist.
I personally think they evolved at the same time as cells, at a point where cells were just foam of water and fat filled with nutrients and self-replicating molecules.
Some molecules evolved to use the DNA replicators without contributing anythong.
Running with scissors is now
an Olympic sport.
This is less alarming, but not
by much☹️
We are so weird.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168170220310753
And it's not even really fringe, the megaviruses kind of opened the floodgates on it. It's just fighting against the whole viruses/life battle and it's also kind of squidgy to think about.
https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/45597
Someone on a microbiology blog brought it up it to me as their "thing that will be obvious in retrospect in thirty years" and these two guys keep getting more evidence.
Either way, super interesting!
There are a lot of non-enveloped viruses. Rhinovirus is probably the most well know. Poliovirus probably the most infamous.
Alcohol can still harm the viral capsid, but not as effectively as a lipid membrane.
I knew it, i been saying this for years!
There are several species of bacteria that can no longer replicate without a host, and transitional giant viruses that still contain garbage genetic material for self-replication.
For the record, though, the egg definitely came before the chicken.
A parasite cannot materialise into existence without a host.
Similarly it's not really possible for a virus that has lost all but a tiny fragment of it's genome to evolve back into a self-replicating cell.
Life as we know it can’t show up until there’s a self-replicating nucleic acid. A cell provides that but a whole cell doesn’t instabamf into existence as a whole.
Now canine TVT, that's *really* upsetting. A single-celled parasite that's phylogenetically a dog
It’s a weighty word to me
As a layperson, I see evolution as forwardness into a selected niche
eg
I’m a 3ml long shrimp/fish deep in a cave or far below ocean surface and my ancestors long ago lost the ability to see much light - did my ancestors devolve????
an outside observer only sees change?
why not also improved adaption?
am I adding a cultural bias?
Does it not make sense that a parasite would evolve after the host? You wouldn’t expect to find mouth bacteria if no mouths evolved yet. Can virus’s infect other viruses?
Or maybe they didn’t and we are wrong. We are portably wrong about some things still.
I think it’s also disturbing in its general implications. Cancer is also a devolution, as Hank has pointed out. And some cancerous cells, like HeLa, have effectively reached immortality.
Kind of like how there was no physical way that FOOF (dioxygen diflouride) could exist before humans invented it.
All they remember is hitting the button to evolve to a higher plane and all the promises of free wi-fi in perpetuity.
There's maybe also a body horror aspect, that inspires a Matrix-like "humans forced into being batteries" thing, though in reverse?
Also, looked up Rhizocephala, which I did not know about, and I would just like to say that I'm fine with never seeing the phrase, "parasitic castrator" in print ever again.
Hank, where's the videolink, Hank?! HANK!
Prion diseases, on the other hand...😳
Like Canine transmissible venereal tumour.
The cancerous cells have dna of a dog from 6000 years ago.
The weird one to me is the Tasmanian Devil cancer that propagates from host to host, so it is an infection evolved from a free living organism.
Also one AIDS patient got cancer from his tape worm. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/11/04/454066109/a-man-in-colombia-got-cancer-and-it-came-from-a-tapeworm
I went down this rabbit hole a little when someone was comparing covid to cancer and people were "but cancer is not contagious" and I thought generally true but some viruses predispose you to it.
So according to Wikipedia when I checked there were the transplant cases and the tape worm incident, plus 7 viruses known to predispose you to cancer (such as HPV).
And they say dogs are smarter than us...
Sometimes I keep my upsets simple, Hank.
Logic dictates no.
Bots ran by AI don't sound quite as flawed as I am.
Yet.
1. Viruses are primordial organisms.
2. Viruses are simplified cellular organisms.
3. Viruses are transposons ("jumping genes") that became capable of moving from cell to cell.