This is an extremely bad decision. The combination of e-bikes and public transport makes all of the capital accessible to many more people, reducing the need for car ownership. Banning them is the wrong reaction to a very small number of issues. - ThreadSky

garethdennis.bsky.social • 3 days ago

This is an extremely bad decision. The combination of e-bikes and public transport makes all of the capital accessible to many more people, reducing the need for car ownership. Banning them is the wrong reaction to a very small number of issues.

Reposted from Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan

This is why, following a comprehensive review of the safety of e-bikes, TfL is banning all non-folding e-bikes on tube and rail services. I have asked TfL to continue to work with government and partners to improve e-bike safety as we build a safer London for everyone. (2/3)

Comments

anne-in-black.bsky.social•3 days ago

The less risk of fire when you are underground, the better.
As a regular Tube traveller, this works for me.

Asking staff to check every bike and the resulting abuse they would face is a non starter.

#TfL

treezer.bsky.social•3 days ago

Disappointing for those of us who are disabled and our e-bike is a mobility aid.

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

Precisely so, that's mostly who I'm thinking of.

edstott.bsky.social•3 days ago

Issue tamper-proof stickers to bike shops for them to sell and fit to safe e-bikes. Easy for TfL staff to check then

alexiswolfe83.bsky.social•2 days ago

If you're renting your e-bike, you can just pick up another one at the other side of your train journey. Seems fine.

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

Meanwhile, with all the death and misery that cars, vans and trucks cause, I see we aren't banning them...

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

A better approach would have been to set up a TfL approved seller list for e-bikes to secure the battery supply chain from dodgy units.

mandrewwaugh.bsky.social•3 days ago

There *might* be a reason folding bikes aren't likely to catch fire, but not explaining it simply makes it look like the real reason is to get bikes off trains.

(Sadly bikes do catch fire on trains - we had one here last week. Fortunately not in a tunnel.)

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

As others have said in replies: where is the analysis that justifies this decision? Has it been published in full and what did the equality impact assessment come back with? Because e-bikes are very often used as mobility aids.

hollybrigstocke.bsky.social•3 days ago

Speculative off topic pov: Getting back in the EU could coattail the latent reindustrialisation policy along with defence. Possibility for domestic battery manufacture and secure supply chains. Bikes and drones and portable electronic countermeasures need batteries... LOTS of batteries.

speedysticks.bsky.social•3 days ago

Perhaps putting OBS/guards back on the Overground would help the situation? I back the move, an emergency like a fire on a driver only train must be mitigated as much as possible. But surely the Chinese do folding ebikes? Are they safer?!

lunarscope.bsky.social•3 days ago

Gareth don’t be silly it’s vibes based

samuelfuller.bsky.social•3 days ago

Analysis is for justifying cuts to disability benefits - bans for on bikes, creating runways, and lower Thames crossing are based on the well known “vibes” heuristic

richardblyth.bsky.social•3 days ago

And a kind of license for the owner to be able to show to staff.

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

I wouldn't go that far, just need to deal with the supply side issues.

raspberryalchemist.bsky.social•3 days ago

Battery fires are mostly due to damage rather than because some suppliers are unreliable. Almost every ebike company buys from the same factories they're just branded differently. I have a DIY converted e-MTB and I regularly see people w/ the same batteries as me even on commercially made bikes.

euromec23.bsky.social•3 days ago

It was actually RMT and ASLEF who were pushing for the ban based on fire at Rayners Lane.

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

Yes, and it's the wrong call - the response from the mayor's office should have been a clampdown on sellers of poor quality battery packs, except that would have been hard and this ban is easy.

hollybrigstocke.bsky.social•3 days ago

I get tired of politicians like Kahn who aren't professionals. You examine the issue, look around for turnkey solutions, evaluate etc etc. Where's his published analysis?

Meanwhile Starmer is getting shouty about "growth" and green energy and is micromanaging businesses blah blah. 🙄

techpriest.bsky.social•3 days ago

Ironically this also creates something of a disincentive for at least some travellers to actually resist and oppose TfL taking over more overground/NR rail links

If you use an ebike, TOC rules are now friendlier to you than TfL

slothlydad.bsky.social•3 days ago

Depends on the TOC.

The outer-suburban / inner Home Counties trains are pretty bike-friendly, but as soon as something fancies itself as long-distance, you're stuffed.

And it doesn't bear that much relation to the actual distance involved.

Peterborough? Easy.
Bristol? Birmingham? HS1? lol nope.

jonga-jones2.bsky.social•3 days ago

E-bikes are targeted in America because they expose the lie that cars are necessary.

America targets e-bikers because if too many people start riding, the industries that profit from car dependency lose their grip.

hutchingsmusic.bsky.social•3 days ago

Time until a previously non-foldable e-bike catches fire after being sawn in half so it can be taken on the tube... approximately 4 days I reckon.

paulnuk.bsky.social•3 days ago

But indeed, very little thought has gone into the decision.

paulnuk.bsky.social•3 days ago

The main thing needed is to enforce the ban on illegal e-bikes, which are in effect unlicensed electric motorbikes, which are often home made, with huge motors and badly made battery packs and electrics.

Maybe just ban from the tube bikes with massive motors and gaffa taped battery packs.

richardmoody.bsky.social•3 days ago

In my view it's a failure of central government to regulate the market for conversion kits. It could relatively easily move to impose standards on the market especially given that many of these kits are purchased though a handful of websites.

augustusbrown.bsky.social•3 days ago

What's folding got to do with the battery?

petoushkoff.bsky.social•3 days ago

and what about something like a removable battery?

thomas.escritt.eu•3 days ago

Why are folding e bikes less likely to catch fire?

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

Well quite. I think the logic is that they are easier to move.

bgreysk.bsky.social•3 days ago

you absolutely cannot bring bikes on buses, tubes and trams in Amsterdam, and it’s very limited on national train routes

cycleislington.uk•3 days ago

Sledge hammer and cracking nuts comes to mind

matthewwhitfield.bsky.social•3 days ago

Worth noting that non-folding bicycles of any type are highly restricted already and perhaps entire cycle policy needs examining

scornflakegrrrl.bsky.social•3 days ago

Dunno I think fire risk is a good reason not to have them in tunnels.

al--s.bsky.social•3 days ago

As it is, non-folding bikes are banned at all times in the tunnels of the deep tube lines (the ones with smaller trains). So a lot of the risk is already not there

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

I think there are better ways to manage that risk:
https://bsky.app/profile/garethdennis.bsky.social/post/3lldw45v7ak2i

scornflakegrrrl.bsky.social•3 days ago

So staff would have to check each bike if it’s an approved one before boarding? Is this feasible? (Genuine question)

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

Actually it's the downstream effect that bike buyers would switch largely towards approved suppliers and you'd see a shift away from dubious suppliers over the course of a couple of years... No need for on-train enforcement.

scornflakegrrrl.bsky.social•3 days ago

I can see that in theory working but would be worried about a devastating fire in those couple of years

duncanneish.bsky.social•3 days ago

I'm not sure this would be the case. Many of the DIY conversions will be much cheaper than proper e-bikes. And much slower since many of these lash-ups aren't legally bicycles anyway, they're electric motorbikes - but most people don't know or care about that distinction.

theblueulysses.bsky.social•3 days ago

with this new rule they're going to have to check each bike anyway. e-bikes are not always obvious (but the dodgy ones are).

scornflakegrrrl.bsky.social•3 days ago

I’m just thinking of the potential aggro frontline staff will be facing when they don’t let a dodgy one through just after an undodgy one was allowed.

garethdennis.bsky.social•3 days ago

I suspect this is going to happen anyway as this ban will need enforcement.

fifeenv.bsky.social•3 days ago

I take it that you wouldn't allow batteries in phones, laptop computers and electric wheelchairs to be taken in tunnels too? All can catch fire. I suspect that wheelchair batteries store as much energy as bike batteries, perhaps more.

scornflakegrrrl.bsky.social•3 days ago

The fire risk is stronger with low quality cheap imports that do not comply with standards. This is less of a problem with laptops and phones.

fifeenv.bsky.social•3 days ago

Any figures on "cheap imports" and "less of a problem"?

I note that you have chosen not to respond on powered wheelchairs. Some of these look rather heavy, which is why I suspect that some store more energy than an (illegally modified) electric bike.

iben.ch•3 days ago

Are there any stats to back this and if yes are they read correctly?
Are non-folding ebikes are more likely to catch fire or simply there is more of them, so more likely they’re involved in an incident?

ernekid.bsky.social•3 days ago

It’s so weird how e-bikes just breaks the brains of certain people. From cyclists who see them as ‘cheating’ to car brains who see them as a threat.

borderlandsbike.bsky.social•3 days ago

At one point cyclists used to see gears as cheating - people are just bad at change.

rolo-lines.bsky.social•2 days ago

Most cyclists don't see legal safe proper pedal-assist e-bikes that are still the size and shape of a normal bike as cheating. But bloated high speed unsafe toy motorbikes or tiny folding throttle only wheeled hairdryers are giving all cyclists a bad name, so yes we have some issues with those

live.from.roys.house•3 days ago

also very silly to only ban non-foldable ones, as if the thing that makes it safe is the hinge

iammelissa.bsky.social•3 days ago

Brompton protecting its market

padders123.bsky.social•3 days ago

There's been a small number of fires involving laptops and phones, will they be banned too? It's arguably more of a risk if they're being charged on TfL trains.

duncanneish.bsky.social•3 days ago

How many times have LFB been called out to such fires and how many deaths?
https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/safety/lithium-batteries/the-dangers-of-electric-scooter-and-electric-bicycle-batteries/

padders123.bsky.social•3 days ago

Home fires are a different thing as they inevitably involve charging.

On public transport which is the key question. TfL said there were two fires in 2021 involving eScooters, none involving eBikes:

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0029-2223

padders123.bsky.social•3 days ago

They've not answered the more recent FoI requests as it said it would take too long to compile information.

Laptop fires have also happened on public transport:
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/passengers-laptop-explodes-on-metro-causing-injuries-panic-in-spain-1917919

duncanneish.bsky.social•3 days ago

You're right that conflagrations are much likelier during charging (fortunately few TfL trains have sockets!). Rayners La wasn't charging tho?

One Madrid case of minor injuries doesn't suggest (the far higher no. of) train laptops are lethal.At a skim, home-charge laptop fires seem less deadly too.

padders123.bsky.social•2 days ago

Ultimately, a fire on the underground is dangerous and can be lethal. It doesn't matter what starts it. If we're banning things because they "might" start a fire or there's been a few fires, then that probably should include laptops and phones.

padders123.bsky.social•2 days ago

As you say this comes down to risk. What is unclear is whether TfL have done the analysis compared to things they do permit.

I'm not necessarily against the TfL ban, although I'd far rather they ban bikes that have been modified or use black market import batteries (which have the real risk).

padders123.bsky.social•2 days ago

We also need consistent rules, because it's not good if people can use a bike on one part of the network but not all of it. E.g. someone might travel from outside London.

duncanneish.bsky.social•2 days ago

Many of the modified or dodgy batteried ones probably are banned already - legally many are motorbikes, not bicycles. But their riders pay no need to road law (no. plates, insurance, etc.) so are unlikely to know or care about the distinction. Which may be why we have this rather crude blanket ban.

dad-climate.bsky.social•3 days ago

hi @zackpolanski.bsky.social are you opposing this?

damonthedemon.bsky.social•3 days ago

Agreed.

saintthejase.bsky.social•3 days ago

Its the "Brompton" exception.

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