Pro Tip: If you remove an unused index, make sure your ORM won't try and recreate it next time you restart the process. In completely unrelated news Discover and other bsky.app feeds should be back online now. - ThreadSky

why.bsky.team • 92 days ago

Pro Tip: If you remove an unused index, make sure your ORM won't try and recreate it next time you restart the process.

In completely unrelated news Discover and other https://bsky.app feeds should be back online now.

Comments

avleen.com•92 days ago

Today we find that the only true answer to "What Should Production Look Like" is the current state of production
Everything else is hopes and dreams.

katiemcgee.bsky.social•92 days ago

OMG ORM!

toadlily.bsky.social•92 days ago

Oh lord I have dealt with that myself a few times. You have all my sympathy.

elis1.bsky.social•92 days ago

I don't want to see irrelevant news:)

id10terror.bsky.social•92 days ago

Appreciate the honesty. Have felt this pain before. I've always tried to use a code first approach with db schema definition and seed data, with hooks for custom actions. Checks for drift help along with scripting deployment actions for review. Some frameworks allow for detection of language tokens.

agentemilydawn.bsky.social•92 days ago

If my ORM is doing DDL we have a problem 😅

sh03.dev•92 days ago

The ORM doing DDL is one the main reasons why you choose an ORM: Keeping the schema in sync with your type definitions.

agentemilydawn.bsky.social•92 days ago

Some ORMs are packaged with schema migration tools, some are even tightly integrated into the ORM, but that's not always the case. I personally prefer to keep them separate, especially in production

jason-judge.bsky.social•92 days ago

The fact thar there are ORMs that much these two very distinct functions is a new thing to me. I'm guessing these aren't relational databases they deal with?

agentemilydawn.bsky.social•92 days ago

Many of them do deal with relational databases. Prisma is one good example. Django is another.

jcsalterego.bsky.social•92 days ago

ORM: I"M HELPING

sminn.ee•92 days ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iExgnVXSAuE

numb.comfortab.ly•92 days ago

ORM are evil. SQL is meant to be handcrafted.

fridgeseal.xyz•92 days ago

Sqlx (the Rust one) is just such a solid experience that it’s kind of ruined everything else for me.

runehog.bsky.social•92 days ago

It’s so nice

sh03.dev•92 days ago

How easy is it to compose dynamic queries?

fridgeseal.xyz•92 days ago

Runtime dynamic queries? That’s not its strong point, but it’ll happily let you pass it runtime sql, and then you can use any of the query-builder-libs to generate that sql
I’ve done something similar before: I had a function which specified parameters, generated runtime sql and passed it in.. 1 / 2

fridgeseal.xyz•92 days ago

I then used the `sqlparser` and `proptest` libs to generate all kinds of parameter combos and validate the generated sql. Was quite nice, wasn’t as strong as full compile time checking, but still powerful.

patreynolds.bsky.social•92 days ago

🎯🎯

cuil.world•92 days ago

Came here to say this, appreciate that someone took care of it. Every day we stray further from god’s light (writing code directly in assembly)

fellat.bsky.social•92 days ago

ORM is like you would be paid per line

mosen.net•92 days ago

SELECT Truth FROM v_obvious WHERE dev_age > 50;

apsv.bsky.social•92 days ago

organically sourced, handcrafted queries with only our best methods

elfredo.bsky.social•92 days ago

It's only an ORM if it's from the Ormandy region of France. Otherwise, it's just sparkling DAO.

numb.comfortab.ly•92 days ago

Still having PTSD from Microsoft DAO.

jcsalterego.bsky.social•92 days ago

dao used to be an ocx you could drag onto a visual basic form

blowdart.me•92 days ago

It’s still around, kind of.

erdnaxeli.cervoi.se•92 days ago

Query builders are good, mapping to objects is good, implicit or opaque query is not.

I love SQLAlchemy, since v2 it has a really powerful query builder, all typed, it can fill relationships by itself (avoiding me to write some basic joins manually). I miss it other lang.

tft.io•92 days ago

It is really good. As a reasonably advanced SQL Dude I never feel that I can’t express my intentions clearly and safely in the SQLAlchemy expression language. It is really good, low drama software.

tft.io•92 days ago

I don’t make heavy use of the o side of things because I’m not crazy enough.

robsims.bsky.social•92 days ago

With all the earnestness of Ralph Wiggum!

pgdba.bsky.social•92 days ago

Yes

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

Im rapidly moving in that direction, but i haven’t gotten to hand writing the “golang type definition to sql table” logic by hand yet

maxhawkins.me•92 days ago

Use https://sqlc.dev. It generates all the typesafe boilerplate for you.

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

i've been recommended this a few times now, just need to find the time to migrate over!

theshnazzyone.bsky.social•92 days ago

I am thankful for all the smart people who run bluesky

vargulfen.com•92 days ago

cameramaven.bsky.social•91 days ago

Oh dear…

kye.boats•92 days ago

Anti-ORM people would be absolutely shocked to find out the number of high-traffic codebases that are ticking along just fine without 100% artisanal hand-crafted SQL queries.

Always saddens me how this particular topic became such a magnet for elitism. There are good ORMs out there.

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

Yeah, i like gorm, it lets me build things really fast and not worry about a lot until later.
You should definitely use an orm that lets you touch the bare metal and write your own queries where you need tho, theres some performance sensitive places where i need to do it myself

dalurness.bsky.social•92 days ago

THIS. I particularly like when they output the raw sql and let you review it before applying.

nathanclayton.com•92 days ago

ORMs are great at what they do. That being said, I do all DDL in handwritten SQL, and schema generation is one of the first things I disable with any ORM that does it.

I'm a pretty big user of Hibernate/Spring Data and SQL Alchemy myself.

candlestick.bsky.social•92 days ago

thankful for these bountiful feeds

null.algo.xyz•92 days ago

jpz0.bsky.social•92 days ago

ORM creating your indexes is how you scale at 20 headcount, I guess.

clarabstract.bsky.social•92 days ago

Wow this feels just like Twitter's early days when it was just running on stock Ruby on Rails

nathanloiselle.bsky.social•92 days ago

So you didn't crash the website like Worf crashed the Enterprise E? Quelle disappointed.

crashdive625.bsky.social•92 days ago

I knew there was a simple explanation. Like spiked eggnog in the data center again.

iamgoncaloalves.bsky.social•92 days ago

This a great post!

So relatable

culturallyunscripted.com•92 days ago

I appreciate the transparency and talking like an actual human over corpo speak that says nothing.

robertlin.bsky.social•92 days ago

"Due to a configuration error..." is the one I probably hate the most.🤦‍♂️

Yes, +1 on the transparency! TY!! One reason I really ❤️ bsky rn is I feel I'm getting front-row seats to the resistance on the front lines. (Kinda like Band of Brothers but for deploying a social media platform on bare metal!😄)

jason-judge.bsky.social•92 days ago

"There was a technical glitch."

I love the breakdown articles of DNS failures, because those stories are MASSIVE and remind us just how vulnerable our world wide infrastructure is.

culturallyunscripted.com•92 days ago

If it's the whole Internet and it's not DNS then it's always BGP heh

v-ron.bsky.social•92 days ago

🫶🏼 TY

simon-buckner.bsky.social•92 days ago

After a shitty day at work this has made my day.

steve.slorello.com•92 days ago

Ahh the joys of ORM migrations

conr.dev•92 days ago

I think @bsky.app CDNs ate too much already.

hmans.dev•92 days ago

Aaaaah getting Prisma flashbacks

apocalypsewitch.bsky.social•92 days ago

It’s never lupus. Until it’s lupus.

belladonna406.bsky.social•92 days ago

They're not back online.

cuil.world•92 days ago

Maybe they’re just extremely quiet posters today

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

Yeah we are looking into it. Its apparently back online for half of everybody and im in the good half luckily

steven-stanford.bsky.social•92 days ago

Rooting for ya!

willdot.net•92 days ago

Had a similar issue a few weeks ago. Took me hours to notice the same index was created twice in code and I had only removed one instance of the code 🙈

armatusvt.bsky.social•92 days ago

Ah, that's why it went down earlier. Cool

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

Well that was about 10 minutes of the downtime earlier, then we had another issue with our DNS setup that took us a while longer to fix

armatusvt.bsky.social•92 days ago

Fair enough. I dropped out of CS because I can't do the computer wizard stuff. Unless it's hardware, I can do that stuff just fine lol

andydentperth.bsky.social•92 days ago

You can tell the *real* experience level of a developer by how quickly they look for "the next issue that's combined with the first bug we found to cause the outage".

richperez.dev•91 days ago

ORM’s are always trying to do too much

bitriot.dev•92 days ago

I'm absolutely amazed BlueSky uses an ORM rather than hand tuned SQL queries and stored procedures.

Whatever ORM it is deserves some credit!

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

We use gorm for Discover, and for a lot of the more sensitive queries i hand write them, it lets you write everything and then it handles argument escaping for you.

patreynolds.bsky.social•92 days ago

Where would I go to get an overview of the stack and potentially start contributing to the codebase?

nathanclayton.com•92 days ago

For the code, I'd start at their Github org - https://github.com/bluesky-social

patreynolds.bsky.social•92 days ago

Started there, but was hoping for maybe somewhere more focused on the backend architecture. I’ll dig deeper to move beyond the typescript stuff

nathanclayton.com•92 days ago

Take a look at the article posted here (and the rest of the website for more info on the protocol):

https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers

moralcode.bsky.social•92 days ago

The team should start a "cursed knowledge" page like the Immich team did: https://immich.app/cursed-knowledge/

I think ORMs are on theirs too

markus.polyscopic.works•92 days ago

so much orm dissing here in the thread! 👏 use 👏 a 👏 _good_ 👏 orm 👏

lainshep.bsky.social•92 days ago

I got some nasty outages from them 10-20 years ago. But probably they’ve improved

(Checks OP)

Ah! Well, DIFFERENT outages!

chirag.bsky.social•92 days ago

ORMs will auto-create an index? Didn't know this.

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

GORM lets you annotate struct fields with index directives, and it does automatic migrations to make sure the database matches the struct annotations.

Its a nice feature for like, the first 90% of development.

jason-judge.bsky.social•92 days ago

I'm old enough to remember when there were developers, and DBAs, and the two would never step on each other's toes. But boy, was progress slow back then. Every developer does now need a solid understanding of so much of the stack now, and these abstractions are needed to stop our brains frying.

kye.boats•92 days ago

An ORM is a category of tool and they’ll do whatever a particular implementation’s author/s tell it to.

ironyuppie.com•92 days ago

O.
R.
M.

What is this 1997

why.bsky.team•92 days ago

Yessir

amardguru.bsky.social•92 days ago

ORM type tools are fine for early prototyping. Once your data model is mature, chuck them and hand-tweak the database. This avoids unpleasant surprises like expensive indexes that you do not need.

cuil.world•92 days ago

It also avoids unpleasant surprises like never really understanding what you’re asking of the db lol

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