A New York City doctor said he will continue providing gender-affirming treatments to his patients younger than 19 despite President Donald Trump’s executive order aiming to ban such care.
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There's a difference between law, interpretation of law, and use of force. The people here do know that. It obscures things do simply call all three the law.
This seems to be helping these conversations along.
Banks are required to be closed on President's day - that's not a crime with a punishment but still a federal law just like an EO. Remember mask laws from Governors? Trump is also saying this is public health and safety.
And it does not confuse things. If you are going to use the word law, make sure everything you say is actually the law or don't bother using that word. EOs are considered laws.
States can't legally or constitutionally pass a lot of laws, but red states are doing it anyway, and some find crooked conservative judges to uphold them. The Supreme Court has literally violated the constitution with a lot of their rulings, including overturning Roe v. Wade.
Abraham Lincoln banned slavery with an EO. I have no idea where you guys get this idea that EOs aren't laws but they are and when people like you tell others to take a civics class all you are doing is making people dumber.
Legislation, EO, judicial precedents, and oddly even proclamations are laws
Yes EO's can / are policy for the execute branch, as long as they are not breaking laws or the constitution. Yes, often people want to go along with the EO's just do it. Yes, they can be cited in courts.
The medical care EO's violates basic rights, and preemptive obeying it is morally disgusting.
This is what Ezra Klein was talking about when he emphasized not to believe Trump or his admin. They keep saying EOs are law, that what POTUS is doing is legal, and neither of those things is true. Don’t listen; don’t act like it’s true.
I'm not sure if I put it in this thread or not but I would bet money that he wrote it to use it as justification to send in the FBI. It won't really matter if it's legal or not later.
No shit Sherlock. If our press had a f*cking clue EVERYONE in the country would understand NO ONE should be complying with any of his illegal orders. USAID workers should be WORKING. The people in jobs that push out funding should be pushing out funding. WTAF IS GOING ON?????
Except you can't do that, because they have been considered law for longer than we have been a nation. I have no idea why you guys would think we would even have them if they didn't do anything. They're no office memos and I would bet money he wrote it as legal justification to soon send in the FBI
And this doctor is doing exactly what every doctor should be doing. DO NOT follow orders from a fascist dictator! That includes women's reproductive health. The rule of law no longer exists in America. Trump, Musk, the SC, etc. have shown that laws are just "suggestions." Fight back!
Executive orders are law. There are legislated laws, executive orders, and judicial precedents. If it's a rule, and has a punishment for you for refusing to do it, it's a law.
Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves with an EO. Stop pretending they aren't laws, Prezs write hundreds of them.
The Emancipation Proclamation had the force of law because it relied on an interpretation of existing laws regarding war contraband. Enslaved people were deemed vital war material to the enemy and subject to seizure (and at that point, release). Which is why it freed no slaves in the Union.
It was an EO and meant as a stopgap until Congress could do it properly. There are literally thousands of examples of EOs being treated as laws because we treat legislation, judicial precedent, EOs, and proclamations as laws.
No, it was a threat made mafia-style because even his own GOP-majority Congress have failed to pass this as law. Because the people don’t want it and because scientific and medical consensus, including EVERY major medical association is against this ban as it has no basis in science or reality.
THAT is exactly how EOs are abused, I'm not saying this isn't abuse but look around, people think EOs are no more than office memos that everyone can just ignore.
Nowhere in this document does the ABA describe an executive order as a law. To have the force and effect of law an EO must be issued pursuant to an actual law: the constitution or an act of congress. To say an EO is a law the same way statutes, regs, or common law is law is plainly wrong.
Nothing you said contradicts my post, EOs are official interpretations of existing laws, and are absolutely more legally suspect - something Lincoln himself understood perfectly well.
The only way they are interpretations of existing laws is that he only has the power granted by the Constitution but he isn't held to only writing EOs that reference existing laws. Let me know if you meant something else.
EOs, by definition, are not laws. Objectively. Not up for debate. You're just wrong.
EOs are a directive to various executive departments. You cannot write an EO that extend beyond the reach of existing laws or they will be blocked by the courts.
You're right, it's not up for debate but just because this does pop up, I would put it more like it's by definition a law, even though it's not really a law in the way everyone here seems to think they are. Look around, people think EOs are office memos that everyone can ignore.
When the president issues some hastily scribbled Notes App bullshit along the lines of "I hereby order that all dogs are boys and all cats are girls" I think it is morally incumbent on the American people to ignore it, actually
Again, we consider legislation, judicial precedent, executive orders, and proclamations to be laws. I have posted the ABAs opinion on that multiple times. They may be weak interpretations of real law but they are by their very definition if nothing else, laws.
EOs arent law, theyre enforcement of the law. For example, Trump couldn't make the sale of fentanyl illegal, but he could direct the DOJ on how to prosecute it.
NBC- do you know what executive orders are? I don’t think you do. Because you seem to think a doctor has to abide not by the law that exists, but by his executive orders.
As one should. It is only moral to help people. The government should not have a say in medicine. Just as is The separation of the state and Church, there should be the seperation of the state and science.
This is a thorough piece but still fails to spell out clearly that there is no reason the doctor should be constrained by an EO because they are not law.
EOs are law. I have no idea where you guys are getting this but if it's a rule, and you can get in trouble for ignoring it, it's a law. Actually, our legal system even considers proclamations to be laws.
If an EO itself breaks the law and constitution, it's not a law. Laws are made up anyway. If the President can so blatantly break the law, why do I have to consider what he says the law just because someone said so? What good are laws if the President suffers no consequences for breaking them?
Illegal laws are not laws except we still make them all the time and argue over it in the courts. That's not the point here though, just whether an EO is an office memo, or a law and they are laws. Just easily overturned ones.
I didn't say it wasn't a POS process or that this would stand, or that anyone will pay attention but he wrote that for justification to send in the FBI. I'd put money on that if Sportsbook would take that bet.
EOs, legislation, judicial precedents, and proclamations are all laws. I'm not saying it's not junk but he wrote that to use as legal justification to send in the FBI, I would put money on it.
He can’t ban shit, but it is 100% an act of defiance when licenses are being put at risk by corrupt hospital boards desperate to kowtow to the Nazi prick.
I have no idea why there are SO MANY people who are adamant that EOs are not laws but they have been for longer than we have been a nation along with legislation, judicial precedent, and proclamations.
You read "Both executive orders and proclamations have the force of law," and jumped to this conclusion. The force of law means it must be complied with by all applicable agencies.
The president can only order the Executive branch. EOs do not and cannot
go beyond that. They direct the executive branch and its departments on how to conduct themselves, but have zero bearing of authority on every day citizens.
Is this a "law"? The definition is highly debatable, but it's not legislation, which does have authority over all citizens.
This is easier: it's federal law that banks must be closed on President's day. It's not a crime with a punishment which far too many people seem to think are the only things we consider laws but in any discussion about the law, it's important to be legally correct don't you think?
It's literally a federal law. We call it a law because it is literally a law. A law doesn't have to be crime and punishment. Not only that but remember mask laws during Covid? Those were all executive orders enacted under public health and safety which Trump is trying to say this BS is.
Are proclamations laws? I'm more amenable to debating that.
Remember mask laws from Govs? Obviously legal and held as such by the courts nationwide. Trump is also trying to say this is over public health and safety. 🙄
They are. Look at all these comments. Plenty of people arguing, plenty of people getting it wrong. If it helps, this seems the best approach, it's technically defined as a law, but not one in the sense we typically use the word. Since we're talking about laws though, it is technically important.
They are laws. I don't know why you guys think we would even discuss them if they were nothing more than glorified office memos. He wrote that as legal justification to send in the FBI, I would bet money on it. It might be found illegal later but the damage would have already been done.
Wrongo! EOs are not laws, at most they're interpretations of statues passed by Congress. And we discuss them because they're part of the President's powers but this President is executing a power grab.
EOs have been considered laws for longer than this piece of land has been considered the US. Legislation, judicial precedent, and proclamations are all considered laws.
Force of law is not the same as legislation or statue; like department rulings, EOs cannot override existing legislation. No one is saying EOs have no power, obviously they do, but they don't many of the things Trump is trying to do with them.
From your own link:
"Executive orders are not legislation; they require no approval from Congress, and Congress cannot simply overturn them. Congress may pass legislation that might make it difficult, or even impossible, to carry out the order, such as removing funding."
Patients and doctors decide what's best.
Govt and insurers Need to back off. It's all culture war. Not based in reality.
Trans people exist.
They deserve care
Check my profile I don't follow random people, and i block access to others who add me. That are clear maga.
I don't care about follows.
Left twitter. Never went on trumps site
Despite what? Trump’s braying? Can you please get someone with a college education or maybe someone who has taken a single civics class to do journalism at NBC?
An EO is not a law, and Lincoln did not end slavery with an EO. That's why we had to have the 13th Amendment passed. An EO certainly does not affect what a doctor in NY State can do.
You're right that was a proclamation but no, that was the law until Congress could make the 13th.
I didn't say an EO wasn't a pos, isn't easily overturned but it is a law and he wrote that for the legal justification when he sends in the FBI. I would put money on that.
Trump cannot send the FBI to arrest this doctor. Even his EO simply directs the Federal gov to stop paying Medicaid/Medicare funds to any caregiver who continued such care. The EP by Lincoln did not end slavery; it was a wartime measure justified as affecting only the 10 states in rebellion
I didn't say the EO does that, he will use it as the legal justification to send the FBI in to investigate. It could just be bluster.
Actually, it was a proclamation not an EO that Lincoln used, again also considered law in the US though. Under the guise of public health and safety he can do a lot
That’s a lot of copy before the link, lots of room to still include it. It’s a choice not to. I also learned it from commentary from better journalists, not guys like you that talk down to randoms on the internet. 🙃
This is not true. Neither the subhead nor the story state EOs are not laws. They state the doctor is not complying with the EO and the NY AG has said not to.
Having a legal battle fought over it doesn't preclude it from being a law. The subhead addresses this particular EO as part of legal controversy rather than EOs in general not being laws.
Once we're beyond this embarrassing period of history one day, and this moronic morale panic of pretending that 5 year olds are getting 20 thousand dollar bottom surgeries performed on them at school is dead and gone, I hope folks like this dude get their well deserved praise.
Yes and no. EOs are technically laws (Lincoln banned slavery with an EO) but are easily overturned by both Congress and the courts so they're pretty weak ones. So, he can technically do it but in this way is meant as a stop gap until Congress could act which I don't know they will.
@nbcnews.com seeing as how gender affirming surgery is RARELY performed on persons under 18 you @nbcnews.com can fu-k off with the fake news and trying to drum up Hysteria. There should be jail time for fake news
I'm confused. Are you talking about other articles? This one is stating gender affirming care and only really mentions surgery in that it is one potential action from gender affirming care and that it is very rare alongside othera such as hormone treatment and pubert blockers. Unless I misread it?
Read the article. Nbc is making it "sound" like gender affirming surgery for kids is an everyday thing and this doctor is going against the grain. In reality it's a rare thing. Are they trying to get the Doc. Beaten? MSM needs to be shutdown for being state ran
I honestly am not reading it that way. In fact the only surgery I see mentioned they even state after saying only an incredibly small portion of children receive gender affirming care is that in rare cases some may have double mascetomy.
Right so why does NBC need to put a story like this out? Right now. With donalds pedophile January 6th army walking around bumping into sh-t. My opinion. They are trying to spread misinformation and cause Hysteria.
My copy of the Constitution doesn't give the federal government any jurisdiction over this - it says the rights and powers about regulating this are reserved to the states or to the people. 🤷
I'm old enough to remember conservatives caring about that.🤔 https://bsky.app/profile/nbcnews.com/post/3lhwxn7eexc2x
Gender affirming care =/= genital surgery =/= removing genitals. Some trans people want genital surgery, because they cause dysphoria. Some of them don't. Genitals are pretty much never removed, they are changed into forms that cause less dysphoria :)
Dysphoria is dysphoria, Genitals do not cause dysphoria. I know that all gender affirming care doesn't involve removing genitals, sometimes it involves hormone therapies & breast removal. Either way, if biology doesn't determine gender why does gender care involve biological procedures? Better?
If names don't determine gender, why does gender affirming care include name changes? Um, maybe because that's really nonsensical logic that doesn't make any sense.
Genitals cause dysphoria to a lot of people. Glad you learned something today :)
No one is stopping anyone from changing their names, people do it all the time for a variety of reasons. Dysphoria is dysphoria and genitals don’t cause it unless you believe that genitals define one’s gender otherwise they’d call it genital dysphoria not gender dysphoria 😉
People need to protect this doctor and people like him with physical force. It’s uncomfortable reality that Trump’s gestapo will ignore the law to arrest those who defy him and we must protect them
Except they are. Why do you think we would even have this process that is older than the US, if it didn't do anything? We consider judicial precedent, EOs, legislation, and proclamations to be laws.
There needs to be an honest to God summit and hearing of a few HUNDRED of these Doctors like him to go before Congress and tell them 'stop. Knock it off'. No more solo action. Let a immuteable throng of them come forward, not a single man they can bully and intimidate.
Good! Finally someone with moral clarity and a backbone standing up for what’s right. We don’t govern this country with royal decree. If the GOP wants to pass a law, they should do that.
In cases like this quitting could be better option. The risk is not just being fired, but being detained, and while doctor is detained the patient wouldn’t get the treatment.
Not complying with an illegal and powerless order seems like the minimum; a bar as low as accurately reporting on the unambiguous illegality of the order, which NBC News somehow still fails to clear
Whenever a new president is elected he sits down and says "fuck these things" and writes new EOs to cancel previous EOs. No one is going to jail over this but he'll use it as legal justification for shit he's about to do imo. Or it's just bluster to distract us from the rest of the shit he's doing.
Judicial orders are of course, also laws and when a federal judge does it, it's a federal law. It's not a state law and there aren't really aren't any other kinds. The president acts with federal authority. Governors act with state authority when they use the same EO process which we saw from Covid.
this is an absurd framing. why would an executive order bind any doctor anywhere in the country from providing care? ridiculous pathetic old man signing whatever garbage is thrown in front of him. falling asleep while a nazi billionaire robs us all blind
Executive orders aren't laws, but they're binding on Federal agencies unless they conflict with other laws. They have no force outside of federal agencies.
I don't know about your state but in mine if you attempted to enter any public businesses without a mask you could be arrested even if the business didn't care. A lot of states enacted such laws, it's impossible to force people to wear masks if there isn't a punishment for refusing to do it.
It has similar power to a law but isn't formally regarded as a law. I think the reason for that is that if an executive order conflicts with an existing law, it can't be enforced.
No it's more like formally regarded as a law even though it is not the same thing as legislation or judicial precedence. This would really just be semantics if not for the technicalities.
Look around in these comments, people think an EO is no more important than an office memo.
Good faith question? (Checks profile.) OK. Such support isn't necessarily medical - just calling a kid by a different name and letting them pick clothes is the first step. Not everyone ends up down a "medical route." But, the article is about a doctor, so let's go there. 1/
For pre-puberty, hormonal blockers may be prescribed, but can cost ~$1,000/month and insurance will usually fight it. That may be between ages 8-14, depending on when puberty starts. You'll usually need letters from therapists too. Again, not everyone goes this route. 2/
After puberty, things can fork a bit. If a trans-boy has already had puberty, a long-term round of birth control isn't uncommon; they just want the periods to stop, so they may go on ~9 months of no periods, then a few months of rest. If they're on blockers from earlier though, 3/
They may keep going until ~16. Constant bone density checks are ongoing this whole time. Estrogen or testosterone may show up around age 16 - they're both somewhat difficult to get for different reasons. Surgery before age 18 is incredibly rare.
I've known and met about 200 trans minors and their parents over about a decade. Maybe a dozen managed to get puberty blockers (timing and cost are tricky), maybe another 20-30 had hormone therapy as teens. I know of maybe five trans boys who had gotten mastectomies, and only one was under 18. 5/
Doctors do not work for the president. Trump does not make laws nor can he order doctors to do anything. This should have been made clear in the article, but then again it's NBC, I'm surprised they even managed to spell "Trump" correctly.
EOs are laws. When they make claims that things have to do with public health and safety, which they are, they can do a lot more than you imagine they can. I would bet money though that he wrote it as the legal justification to send in the FBI. It may later be ruled illegal but the damage was done.
Great read but you really need to work on headlines….it’s tergiversation & you should know better. The article is abt medical care & to specify it’s gender affirming care discounts that. They’re one & the same. Say that doctors are standing up for patient rights. That’s the story.
Comments
Legislation, EOs, judicial precedent and oddly proclamations are all considered laws. Lincoln banned slavery with an EO ffs.
Banks are required to be closed on President's day - that's not a crime with a punishment but still a federal law just like an EO. Remember mask laws from Governors? Trump is also saying this is public health and safety.
ORDERS
ARE
NOT
LAWS
Why are you perpetuating the lie a presidential EO has any legal standing ? Can you go take civics 101 and learn some basics on what you report?! 🤦😭
Legislation, EO, judicial precedents, and oddly even proclamations are laws
Still doesn't make them laws, still doesn't mean people who are not on those systems should roll over like pet dogs due to an EO.
Remember mask laws? Those were executive orders from Governors for public health and safety which Trump is trying to say this is too.
The medical care EO's violates basic rights, and preemptive obeying it is morally disgusting.
Hospitals, medical professionals, companies, and lawyers have to join the fight against tyranny. Now is a good time.
They can’t arrest all of us.
EXECUTIVE. ORDERS. ARE. NOT. FUCKING. LAWS. only CONGRESS can make those. trump HAS no fucking power. DO. YOUR. JOB.
it was still properly put into places via the 13th amendment.
More people need to learn from this doctor!
Felon47 is not a king and cannot make laws with a EO!
Give me the Schoolhouse Rock version of why anyone in the medical field pretends Trump defines what is and isn't legitimate healthcare?
Continue.
Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves with an EO. Stop pretending they aren't laws, Prezs write hundreds of them.
"Law" doesn't just mean crime and punishment. Remember when people could go to jail if they didn't wear a mask - those were EOs.
These are not just office memos.
EOs are a directive to various executive departments. You cannot write an EO that extend beyond the reach of existing laws or they will be blocked by the courts.
“…by definition a law…”.
No. It is not the definition of a law.
Again, we consider legislation, judicial precedent, executive orders, and proclamations to be laws. I have posted the ABAs opinion on that multiple times. They may be weak interpretations of real law but they are by their very definition if nothing else, laws.
It's an executive order, they're just suggestions
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/teaching-legal-docs/what-is-an-executive-order-/
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/teaching-legal-docs/what-is-an-executive-order-/
I know NBCU wishes he were King, but he’s not.
There are all sorts of laws I'd love to ignore.
This "well actually" garbage is about 15 years out of date. Law is dead as long as the government simply ignores the law and the courts.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/teaching-legal-docs/what-is-an-executive-order-/
EOs have been considered laws since before we were a nation.
He's abusing "public health & safety" sentiment from Covid imo and we should sue it all.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/teaching-legal-docs/what-is-an-executive-order-/
I have no idea why there are SO MANY people who are adamant that EOs are not laws but they have been for longer than we have been a nation along with legislation, judicial precedent, and proclamations.
You read "Both executive orders and proclamations have the force of law," and jumped to this conclusion. The force of law means it must be complied with by all applicable agencies.
The president can only order the Executive branch. EOs do not and cannot
Is this a "law"? The definition is highly debatable, but it's not legislation, which does have authority over all citizens.
In short, no.
Remember mask laws from Govs? Obviously legal and held as such by the courts nationwide. Trump is also trying to say this is over public health and safety. 🙄
Some individuals may choose to enact similar, but only acts of Congress can establish things for all citizens.
Try reading the Constitution and figure out “separation of powers.”
The felon singed a memo.
Far too many people here think legislation is the only thing we call laws and to that I have to say, welcome to America, take a civics class.
"Executive orders are not legislation; they require no approval from Congress, and Congress cannot simply overturn them. Congress may pass legislation that might make it difficult, or even impossible, to carry out the order, such as removing funding."
How are you so bad at this?
"First, do no harm"
Govt and insurers Need to back off. It's all culture war. Not based in reality.
Trans people exist.
They deserve care
it wont work here. there are some goofies but you'd do better off to pretend to be a lefty on twitter for the hate follows tbh
tl;dr - you can do better than this
I don't care about follows.
Left twitter. Never went on trumps site
you saw a new market
fuck off
Executive orders even from a real administration are mostly theater anyway.
Coming from an illegitimate anti-constitutional regime, they are toilet paper.
I didn't say an EO wasn't a pos, isn't easily overturned but it is a law and he wrote that for the legal justification when he sends in the FBI. I would put money on that.
Actually, it was a proclamation not an EO that Lincoln used, again also considered law in the US though. Under the guise of public health and safety he can do a lot
Ripping on the press for not being able to cover complex stories with just headlines might get you lots of likes but it’s not very helpful.
I'm old enough to remember conservatives caring about that.🤔 https://bsky.app/profile/nbcnews.com/post/3lhwxn7eexc2x
Dear Democrats, keep fighting this battle, make it a midterm issue. I'm begging you.
Genitals cause dysphoria to a lot of people. Glad you learned something today :)
No one is also prevented from getting genital surgery. Do you think it should be, or what's the point?
If they refer to him as "trump" and tell us what we need, we're still reminded of him while learning new information
The point of the news isn't to remind us of past grievances but to update us with new info.
Executive orders are orders to the executive branch of the government
They do not constitute legislation, becuase that's a different branch.
The word "law" is not exclusive to crime and punishment or legislation. We wouldn't have invented the word legislation if "law" was the same thing.
Even state chartered banks
Lincoln banned slavery with an EO.
I could say an order of the court is a federal law. I could say it, but it wouldn't make it true.
Really, WTF is wrong with you?
Look around in these comments, people think an EO is no more important than an office memo.
But: not everyone follows the same path... 4/
He throws "gender ideology" back in the faces of MAGA extremists, correctly identifying THEM as the ones motivated by ideology.