The conundrum of our politics is that we may need a populist message to win back the working class, but once you start down that path you could horseshoe into pet-eating hateful nonsense.
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The challenge for Democrats is how to counter the relentless Republican propaganda without sinking to their level. In essence, we have to present the truth and make it more compelling than their lies. Not an easy task.
Agreed. That's where Democrats screwed up the most; they failed to respond to the Republican propaganda blitz that ramped up in the 90s. The trick is finding liberal billionaires willing to fund it. Most billionaires are fascists, apparently.
Yes, let's all agree that populism is bullshit. Actually no, populism is listening to the actual voters and paying attention to their needs, like a living wage for full-time work, stuff like that!
Wikipedia: "A common framework for interpreting populism is known as the ideational approach: this defines populism as an ideology that presents "the people" as a morally good force and contrasts them against "the elite", who are portrayed as corrupt and self-serving. 1/5
Populists differ in how "the people" are defined, but it can be based along class, ethnic, or national lines. Populists typically present "the elite" as comprising the political, economic, cultural, and media establishment,... 2/5
depicted as a homogeneous entity and accused of placing their own interests, and often the interests of other groups—such as large corporations, foreign countries, or the ruling political party—above the interests of "the people". 3/5
According to the ideational approach, populism is often combined with other ideologies, such as nationalism, liberalism, socialism, capitalism or consumerism. 4/5
Thus, populists can be found at different locations along the left–right political spectrum, and there exist both left-wing populism and right-wing populism."
Bernie Sanders is a populist by 👆 definition, & would have won in 2016 had the DNC not squashed him in favor of their fav corporate lib. 5/5
In short, do you compromise yourself in pursuit of victory or do you maintain your ethical standards, accepting the risk of defeat? If a country's worth governing, I think you have to believe (hard as it sometimes is) that its people can differentiate between probity and mendacity. Stay the course.
A 19th century populist message vilifying Wall Street and championing workers might be what we need (without the racism of course). If you're miserable, blame your boss, your bank, your insurer, and your landlord, not the government.
not really because the internet has shown that loads of people are willing to ass kiss and deepthroat any rich dude they can as if it’ll make them rich too
Depends what you mean by populist.
In some quarters it means fascists, in others "the opposition", in others any political philosophy dedicated to the greater good.
I don't identify as socialist but I agree with this aim.
The conundrum of our politics is it’s fueled by concentrations of money. Which makes billionaires, corporations, and celebrities more important to politicians than regular Americans.
i think we could put forward a populism grounded in the realities of American inequality, rather than racism and bullshit. we could put forward the kind of message Sanders and AOC have been, that billionaires are making everyone's lives harder to get even more obscenely wealthy. it's even true
When you unpack that statement, it illustrates just about every clueless facet of current Democrat mindset and messaging. It isn't just wrong, it's wrongheaded, and a path to political irrelevance.
What's really sad to me is that the only lasting accomplishment of Maga has been to disenfranchise all voters to concepts of truth, trust and good faith in politics. Long after 47 is in the dirt, we'll still have an utter distrust of politicians on all sides, and that sucks.
Those messages were never for those that saw through the BS. It pandered to the already supporting and hardened their resolve towards Trump in that he’ll fix the big scary that America has become. The ignorance is so ingrained that they don’t realize they fed the very fire they tried to extinguish.
Nah. what the Democrats don't understand, thanks to their donors not wanting them to understand it, is that people are hungry, desperate even for ECONOMIC populism. Most of the "centrist" Dems in Washington and media are wealthy& out of touch. they have NO IDEA what the working class is going thru.
Not necessarily. Corps have been screwing U.S. workers for decades by deprioritizing their labor and education based on H1-B and F-1 student visas. Both of these programs contribute heavily to devaluing U.S. citizens regardless of race, nationality, or creed. Populist, but pro-American.
You'll find a razor blade in a candy apple on Halloween sooner than you find a pet-eater in Ohio. My state is many things, but chowing on a Chow Chow is not one it's known for.
The reason why nobody's talking about the Haitian immigrants of Springfield is, Trump's supporters know they're going to be rounded up, imprisoned and eventually deported as soon as he takes power- legal or not- and his opponents know they have very few ways of preventing it.
I so appreciate you being here! I don't honestly think there is any conundrum right now; purportedly a majority of Americans elected a racist, rapist, whore-monger, tax-evader as POTUS; but if there's any conundrum it is how do we SSI Srs escape what is coming? We can't, so guess the next targets...
Populist policy doesn’t need to divide the public. It can target predatory capitalism but that’s generally vilified by centrist Dems. Maybe teach all your children to be suspicious of anyone throwing around communism without any knowledge about political ideologies.
It's irrelevant debating exactly which technique is being used (or by who) to destroy Democracy, eliminate our Constitution, disregard our Rights & Freedoms while burning America to the ground - We will ALL suffer -> Immigration problems solved because no one will want to come to America or be here
I never did think much of the "horseshoe" theory - it's a canard for so many reasons. But yes, simply being right about stuff isn't enough in a system where money buys news and news is narrated.
There has to be a point, and I’ve reached it, where the “working class” (and let’s be honest, it’s only a certain demo of it)has to own what it decides to do. I’ve no interest in trying to change their minds on a thing now. It’s a waste of time and energy.
Oh, once sh*t heads of the GOP are done fu*king over the working class... yet again on this next round... populism? Ummmmm... will it fade with middle class?
There's just so much pretend "cake" we can not eat... 🤔
On the contrary, I think Trump populism made him have a ceiling. People didn't go out to vote for democrats and I think the problem was not populist ideas. They would do more harm than good. ¿The problem is why people didn't go out?
Populism help spur the labor movements, civil rights movements and any mass change we have had so I think you are right. For us going too far would be french revolution style or soviet style eradication of the elites
Actually, JD Pants admitted in a CNN interview while that was a hot topic, that he made it up. He literally said they were creating fake news stories to draw attention to their campaign.
If only there were a populist message, other than bigotry, which worked for the white working class...
Hey, are we limited to billionaire-friendly populism? Could we consider populist messages which don't further increase the personal wealth of the owner of the Washington Post? Is that on the table?
Did Nordlinger mention that it's actually STILL an emergency - for those immigrants? They're not safe, they have been targeted for harassment or worse and THAT is not over. Some of them have left Springfield, which is bad news for Springfield economy. They are people and they still matter!
Dems and "progressives" need to do a better job of listening to average people and tailoring their message and efforts that way, but that shouldn't have to descend into the worst parts of "populism." It means getting much more vocal about some matters and maybe putting other issues on the back.
You’re not winning anyone. This country, if you can even call it that, is done. Be glad you are in your 80s, the worst is yet to come. This is the age of the oligarchs.
Just like that, Hunter Biden's laptop no longer mattered, Joe Biden's 'China money' no longer mattered to anyone other than Comer, and Holz's teaching in China no longer mattered. Seems awful convenient, too. It's almost as if all they care about is scaremongering propaganda in hopes of winning.
As opposed to using the presidential pardon power to erase far more serious crimes by the president's son-in-law's father (then naming him Ambassador to France), or those of multiple members of his campaign staff, his personal advisors, and so forth.
And for anybody not named "Hunter Biden" this would've been handled like the minor issue that it actually is and resolved by plea deal. It would not have involved an independent counsel wasting years on investigating Burisma, getting two other people acquitted at trial, and trying to save face.
I honestly don't. This whole issue is about a false statement on a gun permit form, for a gun that was later surrendered and did not lead to any further criminal activity, as well as failure to pay taxes on time, which were fully paid off, with penalties and interest.
George, If Trump is as bad as we think, we will not need to change a thing. The nation will ask us to help again. If they don't, they can keep suffering until they do.
I think a coherent working class message is all you need and actually show results. A policy that clearly show you want to benefit all people of all color is really all they ask for. And for goodness sake raise taxes on the uber wealthy and cut taxes on the poor.
We should probably let just burn it all down and start from scratch. I’m assuming less people will be hurt if we do it that way than if we wait for the old whites to die off.
“Let’s let the criminal elite round up all the undesirables and put them in labor camps like they say they want to because fighting back might hurt someone” is a hot take.
Yes but it worked. How are there that many tards in the country. I mean the post election analysis tells us he got all the male votes in the country …. Oh, I get it now.
What’s needed is an education system that educates. Home schooling to be illegal. Libraries with books. And non-partisan media that pursues factual journalism. For starters.
Conservatives can be really simple minded when they're militant. They can focus on one crisis at a time and they'll forget about a previous one if you give them a new one.
It was really telling both the interview with the factory owner who thought they were great ("they turn up to work!") vs the street vox pop with local crack heads.
There are plenty of good, decent, kind, and common sense driven people out there. Most people want to do the right thing. The real issue we have right now is that about 70 million people are being told to disable their critical thinking parts of their brain and they have obeyed. It's quite a hurdle
There’s a huge difference between fake populism designed to steal from the people and populism with a real interest in helping the people. The answer isn’t to shy away from populism, it’s to embrace it and make sure it actually delivers for the people.
I’ve been saying the left needs to embrace populism since the election was done, but got attacked for saying that. But populism is winning elections worldwide, and it doesn’t have to be associated with Trump.
"we may need a populist message to win back the working class"
We had a populist message. The problem was that it was delivered by a woman. This country is too sexist to elect a woman. It is infuriating and soul crushing, but it's the reality.
We had a populist message delivered, very well, by a woman. It is easy to blame sexism, which does exist - and should not!
I'm a white man and proudly voted for the party for everyone EXCEPT white men, but maybe we need to stop alienating the less enlightened, less secure white men of this country.
It's disheartening to witness the persistence of such biases in our society. The struggle for equality and fair representation continues, and it's important to keep pushing for progress despite the obstacles..
At this point I don't want to bring them up again. Maybe the Republicans will forget that was a thing and not actually try to deport them. I read that a good part of the community already left the area though, so...
A wise man (Dr King) has once said “darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that”, which I love and respect. But with social media, lies tend propagate to unstoppable distances and impact outcomes. So, maybe “light” is not sufficient to drive out the darkness any longer??
The people of Ohio knew this was a lie. But the people of Ohio would have done absolutely anything to get him elected. Anything. Every other yard in Ohio had a Trump sign in it literally. And now that he won all the Trump flags and Trump signs are still out in full bloom in every yard. Disgusting.
Have you noticed that no one is talking about voter fraud? I think now is exactly the time to talk about it because of Trump‘s lies, for capital officers and Ashley Babbitt were killed.
Also I would raise minimum wage.
Outlaw 0 hour contracts.
Prosecute employers of undocumented workers.
Have a public league table of shame of how much the company CEO gets compared to the median wage of the company.
No, they didn't eat pets, that was proven untrue. And Vance got caught in a lie, admitting on live TV that if he "had to make up stories to get people's attention" then that's what he would do. You can find that clip. Just sad all around.
The issue isn't that they *never* have, the issue addressed is that it didn't happen as accused. But you knew that. Who knows what was going through his mind when he blatantly lied about it, that speaks volumes about him. Yes, worldwide news thinks that America is a joke. It is sad. Gotta do better.
Eating cats and dogs. Seems insane. How could..He who should not be named..during the debate(hint) say it with a straight face and then explain that the media said it? Hum. Everyone knows cats and dogs are high in cholesterol. This is our leader. Oh boy!
I’m so sick of the MAGAS lies, fear monger and double standards. These people have been so brainwashed that they will need years of therapy to bring them back to reality. We’re living in scary times.
the fact that they targeted HAITIANS in particular absolutely infuriates me. Anyone who knows anything about the history of Haiti know that those people have seen things that we couldn't even begin to understand. To be mistreated after all they have been through is the depths of depravity.
And the French even made THEM pay reparations after they finally left...keeping them in poverty in perpetuity...but jackwads like Pat Roberson (Roast in Hell) claimed it was "voodoo" that kept them down.
YES. The reparations were disgusting. Absolutely crippled them. Then Papa Doc Duvalier insisted his country needed humanitarian aid and then confiscated all the aid. Port Au Prince doesn't even have a working sewer system.
Or rethink Democracy: if my fellow citizens vote for a convicted total ass - friend of Putin, so compromising National Security - do I have to align (sadly) to his policies?
Or am I allowed to say he's a Conniving Nazi Twat, CNT for brevity, &all the people who voted for him are CNTs as well?
I think that's partially true, but Democrats have failed miserably at connecting with men, mainly because they don't even try. Richard Reeves and Scott Galloway have been talking about this problem for years. Go to the who-we-serve page on https://Democrats.org and see for yourself.
@georgetakei.bsky.social the message is here, we need leaders willing to stand up & say it:
Tax the ultra rich for the enrichment of us all. Quality of life will improve with a government of the people, by the people and FOR THE PEOPLE. It is more but the message must be US for us, not us for them
They have been proving it, why do you think Republicans want to take away SS/Medicare, throw away climate accords, eliminate corporate oversight, cut taxes for the rich, bust unions?Those are all things that help the working class! Taking action by actually creating good programs apparently fails!
I don’t know that racist and xenophobic rhetoric is an inherent danger of populism generally? Doesn’t that depend on its driving ideology (rightist populism versus leftist, in this context) and concomitant objectives?
They already admitted it was made up. That it was supposedly fabricated to shed light on the "illegal immigration problem" in Springfield even though those immigrants are here legally.
No!! No!!! No!!
There is absolutely a phenomenon of progressive, empathetic populism that does not “horseshoe” or degenerate into right wing fascism. We should develop that philosophy.
No, but the bills incurred for the city by absolute idiocy of the highest order remain for the taxpayers to absorb. If anyone else had caused that kind of panic, chaos, and expense by saying something so incredibly ignorant, we would be awaiting trail for it.
Maybe don't let National Socialists (nazis, for the uninformed) also SINO (socialist in name only) shape our discourse and be the only people talking about working class issues. Shitlibs GTFO.
I heard the caravan of immigrants came north, ate all the pets, and just went home. They self-deported because that's what immigrants always do after they've eaten all the dogs and cats.
Vance said publicly that they are allowed to make up stories if it gets their narrative out there. No surprise that they aren’t talking about it anymore.
During our last city elections (where police funding was an issue) the police were issuing a near constant stream of dire warnings about massive 100+ person youth gangs roaming in packs fighting people, it was almost daily. The day after the elections the problem vanished from media and police PR
1.) If “theworkingclass” had any meaningful confidence whatsoever that politicians would see to their issues maybe theyd bother listening to more than whatever bs makes them feel good- even if only once in a while, but time and again they’ve seen that fail.
2.)That they’re something to be won r saying speaking to their problems, then representing them will inevitably devolve into that nonsense are both classist as fuck. We’ve all seen- historically/concurrently, domestically/internationally, locally/nationally that we’ll be fucked over 4 small interest
3.) Failure to acknowledge that being a primary driver for almost everyone being desensitized, demoralized, and disinvested is giving into the propaganda they generate with everything they’ve taken from us.
…add to that the fact that the moneyed interests yet the wheels of both sides of American politics are only really focused on outcomes that service their needs. Anything else (what matters to the average American) is ancillary.
Populism is not demagoguery. Populism unites the working class against the billionaire class (e.g. today's UAW). The billionaire class and their minions pretending to care about the working class in order to divide and conquer it *is* demagoguery.
Populism isn't the issue. Populists that accurately and truthfully addresses the issues of the working class, like Bernie, are desperately needed. Faux right wing populism that relies on disinformation and fear mongering is the problem.
The only way to appease the working class is to throw a whole bunch of marginalized groups (particularly LGBTQ folks) under the bus while trying to dumb down complex global macroeconomic principles to people with 4th grade reading levels.
"America was not built on fear. America was built on courage, on imagination, and an unbeatable determination to do the job at hand". "Americans never quit. We never surrender. We never hide from history. We make history" — John McCain.
For history, it makes sense though? You couldn't prove with video evidence someone said something. You couldn't pull up court cases showing convictions.
People had less access to information and had to take people at their word
I blame the modern media landscape for that. There is such an excess of content and data to sift through, and the average American isn’t very media literate. For any legit evidence that someone provides, someone in opposition can easily find an op-ed stating the opposite and take it as fact. 🫤
Neural scientists (& advertisers) have known for 50+ years that decision make ing is centered in the emotive spheres of the mind - which is rigidly set by experience.
We then use the intellectual spheres rationalize what we emotively have contrived.
Actual experience is how you reprogram the emotive sphere. Back in the late 40s & 50s people went in military & had positive experiences w/ people from all over the nation. Communitarian structures/experiences provides positive experience. The rich don’t want this bcuz it creates duties beyond self.
The 15 million illegal ISIS trans aliens streaming across the border three months ago should have made it into the heart of the country by now, but. . .
I think economic populism doesn't necessarily mean that it would descend into the hateful brand of populism and nationalism that trump is fond of. Bernie sanders has been running on the same economic populism message for decades and I haven't heard him mention eating pets once.
The not funny thing is the Haitians have left due to the deportation scare and now the city’s economy and crime rate will go back to being awful before the immigrants came. I live in Ohio and have family in Springfield.
Fear works. Dems need to start instilling fear about the very dangerous and harmful things we know are coming. No more nebulous “save our Democracy” messages. A disengaged electorate needs to be hit over the head loudly and repeatedly with the specific threats to our safety and well being.
Jacqueline Singh the Cybersecurity Lead of the 2020 Biden campaign has written a letter with grave concerns about the 2024 election and the need for a forensic audit
It’s so easy to predict Trump’s playbook. Just look up Hitler’s consolidation of power (1933-36). Expect the Quislings in Congress to pass an “Enabling Act” giving Shitler “emergency” power to rule by decree. Mark my words.
#DemonicDictator #Quislings #Shitler
"WE need a populist message.." highlights the problem. We are not currently the party of the people, who see us as elitist, condescending and not aligned with their values. It's not a messaging issue. Listen to Bernie or AOC. Stop taking PAC money. Get kids fed two meals a day at school.
I disagree. To me the bigger conundrum is how do the “elites” convince the working class that they will actually implement programs that make their lives better. Somehow the Rs have done an amazing job of convincing independents they are better for the economy and building the country.
A better populist message would be one that recognizes and taxes the massive amounts of cash sent overseas by corporations, the uneven tax structure enabled by preferred taxes on capital gains and stepped up basis, and the amount taxation hamstrings business investing in the United States.
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JD "Mandel" (so Trump called him) said so during an interview.
And by the way, here the Kiffness song. Enjoy 😁
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3BrCvZmSnKA&pp=ygUdZWF0aW5nIHRoZSBjYXRzIGFuZCBkb2dzIHNvbmc%3D
Bernie Sanders is a populist by 👆 definition, & would have won in 2016 had the DNC not squashed him in favor of their fav corporate lib. 5/5
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/17/haitian-immigrants-springfield-ohio-trump-election
In some quarters it means fascists, in others "the opposition", in others any political philosophy dedicated to the greater good.
I don't identify as socialist but I agree with this aim.
Of course people want to make that go kablooey.
Back to parenting 101 ( government)and hope
For the best
There's just so much pretend "cake" we can not eat... 🤔
Hey, are we limited to billionaire-friendly populism? Could we consider populist messages which don't further increase the personal wealth of the owner of the Washington Post? Is that on the table?
Personally, I think it is neither.
It is the acceptance of lies and criminal behavior that is a symptom of the USA corruption as a society.
And half of this idiot country decided they'd rather die of starvation or exposure in concentration camps.
In an ideal world things should be getting better in worse places, not worse in better places.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fearing-deportation-some-haitian-migrants-leaving-springfield-ohio/
Center. Reason. Science.
Always about kitchen table issues. The democrat’s failure is falling for every trap: bathroom uses, children sex changes, pronouns.
WE ALL KNOW those are important & will protect them. But Trump voters don’t care. They care about jobs jobs jobs.
Focus on taxing billionaire class, using that revenue to pay down debt & create jobs, & healthcare for all.
Keep it simple. No 30 point plan necessary.
you should have been a red shirt
We had a populist message. The problem was that it was delivered by a woman. This country is too sexist to elect a woman. It is infuriating and soul crushing, but it's the reality.
I'm a white man and proudly voted for the party for everyone EXCEPT white men, but maybe we need to stop alienating the less enlightened, less secure white men of this country.
Also I would raise minimum wage.
Outlaw 0 hour contracts.
Prosecute employers of undocumented workers.
Have a public league table of shame of how much the company CEO gets compared to the median wage of the company.
Poof gone
Or am I allowed to say he's a Conniving Nazi Twat, CNT for brevity, &all the people who voted for him are CNTs as well?
Tax the ultra rich for the enrichment of us all. Quality of life will improve with a government of the people, by the people and FOR THE PEOPLE. It is more but the message must be US for us, not us for them
There is absolutely a phenomenon of progressive, empathetic populism that does not “horseshoe” or degenerate into right wing fascism. We should develop that philosophy.
Trump gets sold as a populist when in reality no person could be more of an elitist than he.
It's entirely possible to be a populist without becoming a fascist.
What, if anything, can be done about that? 🤷♂️
/s
There were so many twenty to thirty somethings who came out. Turns out it was for the weed ordinance. Wild.
#VoteForNiceThings
#VoteForNiceThings
Good luck
I'm going to be a dictator to STOP PEOPLE YOU HATE!
Republicans: “Yeah! Stop those people!!”
Democrats: “Dictator!?”
People had less access to information and had to take people at their word
Now even with proof, they plead ignorance
Right now, the media is letting everyone down. I remember when a color of someone's suit was front page for days
The cabinet picks past transgressions? Crickets
We then use the intellectual spheres rationalize what we emotively have contrived.
I had thought a civic service requirement would also give people an outside perspective and a different view of what civic servants do for us
My father’s gen everyone did some time in the military.
After I grad from high school & went to college out of state, met lots of people from all over the place living in the dorms etc.
I’m sure there are other ways to have this kind of thing.
A return of the rule of law and respecting science and qualified experts. Of honour, empathy. Of respectful diplomacy and global leadership.
Actual moral strength, rather than a grasping strongman.
Restoring America.
Ethics/decency/human values r middle class characteristics: the rich don’t need them & the poor can’t afford them.
By the time we get there many workers will convert to mid-class ethics. So it shuld ultimately work out okay.
More at the link
https://www.hackingbutlegal.com/p/letter-to-president-biden-and-vice
#DemonicDictator #Quislings #Shitler