99% of the right: We should kill all immigrants and transsexuals and abolish all public health
.01% of the left: We should abolish prisons and policing
‘We must do something about the left’
The funny thing is the campaign ‘centerist’ democrats seem to want, populist, economic based, not foregrounding identity, guns and foreign policy is pretty much the exact campaign Bernie ran in 2016.
Glad we're putting these unnamed prison abolitionists in their place for the very obvious problem they caused whatever it is.
Seriously Matty if you're gonna do call outs, call out the speaker, the speech etc. I personally have never even heard of prison abolishers - name names, you're a big boy
The problem with this is that the term "prison abolition movement" gets applied to a broad group of people with a variety of views, and most of them actually do accept that we need some prisons. They just think we need far fewer and that many things that land you in prison now shouldn't.
Prison abolition? Hmmm…so who are those people? Are we talking the smallest slice of the smallest slice of the left? This kind of argument is an easy way to ignore the real issue of mass incarceration. It is full of sneer and sarcasm.
I don't even particularly agree with them, but the point of prison abolition and rehabilitative justice is a piece of a much larger political view that makes literally 0 sense in isolation.
Keep all parts of the american system and just be for prison absolution and yeah, it makes 0 sense.
I think many of them mean very different things by it, and at least the idea of rehabilitative justice (which we’ve abandoned all pretenses of), or rebooting rotten institutions, should be taken seriously.
Why would you adopt the term “abolition” - a word imbued with deep power and history - if your actual goal is just “reform the system to achieve its intended purpose?”
I heard this same story about “abolish rent,” a movement that apparently has nothing to do with abolishing rent.
Reminds me of the College for All bill which nobody read but me apparently which provided a small amount of federal matching funds for states which opted to make tuition free public schools and would very much not lead to anything remotely close to College for All.
I oppose the bad policies because they’re bad intrinsically, not because of the messaging. But additionally, I am frustrated that the messaging is inaccurate.
You (and everybody else) are just leaning hard into whataboutism. Address the point: shouldn’t messaging accurately describe policy?
Ideally, maybe. But messaging as a concept is separate from content for a reason. It’s supposed to make achievement of the policy goal more likely, or bring more supporters towards a certain perspective (left-liberal to left-maximalism, in this case)
The problem is that none of them actually believe in rehabilitative justice and switch into immediate bloodthirst mode the second the criminal did one of the crimes they don't consider to be uWu smol bean.
I think it's like "defund the police". Some are just using it as a slogan for reform of the police/policing services, some really do or did mean actually abolishing it. If the former, I think a better term for it would be good. It's not actually abolition or defunding, it's reforming.
It’s the conceptual opposite of “Pell grants to anyone who starts a small business, with tax rebates…”
Maximalist messaging is a better fit for living in a time of hyperbole, but not necessarily more effective.
I guess maximalist messaging is effective for keeping your own constituency on side but can be alienating for other constituencies and can overshadow or distract people from serious policy debate.
Sadly I think politics that just involves pumping up your base is comparatively easy (although definitely some people are much better at it, eg Trump). Actually doing real governing while being really effectively at politics is probably one of the hardest things in the world.
Look, I could sit here and take smug potshots at the left all day. The question is, why the fuck would I? “Oh my god they aren’t serious policy thinkers” whatever dude
Only the Right has the media infrastructure to present proposals in language that could "mean very different things" and get away with it.
-Democrats get slaughtered when they present ideas in unclear language that could be spun as insane and toxic.
-Defund the police, for example.
is it media infrastructure or is it more in the nature of conservative messaging, the palliative of appeals to the past versus the risky uncertainty of promising a better future
Hey Mr. Y, I am not actually an abolitionist (although I am friends with many). That said, I feel the exact same way about many of the things that you say about criminal justice policy...and I am not saying that to be mean...or in a mean way.
Certainly willing to discuss...But frustrated by your recent writing about "disorder" - the implications of which - it seems to me - is an utter surrender to total surveillance, treating people in poverty like criminals, and treating unhoused people as criminals for electoral purposes
Hmm, Matthew I wonder what percentage of the prison population are for SA???
Hmm, Matthew I wonder how good the police are at investigating and prosecuting SA???
Hmm, Matthew I wonder how many more people are victimized by SA while in prison???
That is really unfair Matt...In most of your discussions on this topic you are uninformed but that doesn't stop you from slandering particular people (that meme is particularly egregious)
How much have you actually read or listened to her perspectives on these issues?
This problem, like guns, has been solved by every other country that isn’t half full of trash the world would be better off without if they all died tonight
Comments
Not sure if you’re arguing for mass incarceration, or that the us prison system is fine, or what.
.01% of the left: We should abolish prisons and policing
‘We must do something about the left’
Seriously Matty if you're gonna do call outs, call out the speaker, the speech etc. I personally have never even heard of prison abolishers - name names, you're a big boy
https://medium.com/@icelevel/whos-left-mariame-26ed2237ada6
He tends to be careful about calling people out by name or link, because he has a big following and it can instigate pile-ons.
Keep all parts of the american system and just be for prison absolution and yeah, it makes 0 sense.
No. Stop. If you have to explain a bad slogan, you already lost people.
As Reagan said "If you are explaining, you are losing".
However, there are people whose innate psychology will lead them to harm others if they have the opportunity.
They must he isolated from the general population
1) more rehabilitative programs need to be established
2) mental health components emphasized
3) elimination of privatized penitentiaries.
Abolition of prisons is unrealistic… but mass reform of the penitentiary industrial complex is needed.
I heard this same story about “abolish rent,” a movement that apparently has nothing to do with abolishing rent.
Just… stop.
At some point you’re just lying.
You (and everybody else) are just leaning hard into whataboutism. Address the point: shouldn’t messaging accurately describe policy?
Maximalist messaging is a better fit for living in a time of hyperbole, but not necessarily more effective.
-Democrats get slaughtered when they present ideas in unclear language that could be spun as insane and toxic.
-Defund the police, for example.
And even if you do want to reduce the use of prisons to nothing, many abolition advocates also oppose monitoring and tracking devices. I mean...
But that aside, the immediate issue is the pragmatic one of:
What happens if they tamper with the tag/otherwise refuse to comply with HA terms?
A breach could see you sent back to prison.
Given your reach, it makes me particularly grumpy
Hmm, Matthew I wonder how good the police are at investigating and prosecuting SA???
Hmm, Matthew I wonder how many more people are victimized by SA while in prison???
How much have you actually read or listened to her perspectives on these issues?
Be fair and accurate, man