Is it the second-biggest city in Europe without a tram??? Need a West Country @tomforth.co.uk - ThreadSky

duncanrobinson.bsky.social • 33 days ago

Is it the second-biggest city in Europe without a tram??? Need a West Country @tomforth.co.uk

Bristol is the only big-ish city outside London with above average productivity.
It is bigger (c. 550k people) than Oxford and Cambridge combined. People want to move to it - so housing is expensive. It’s constrained by its size, has rubbish transport links…

Comments

stefanschubert.bsky.social•33 days ago

Stockholm has very little tram rail in the city centre (most of it closed when traffic switched from left to right in 1967).

ollyglover.bsky.social•33 days ago

True. However, it has a lot of metro and suburban railway provision there though, neither of which is true of Leeds or Sheffield sadly...

stefanschubert.bsky.social•33 days ago

For sure, correct. Also building plenty more!

ollyglover.bsky.social•33 days ago

Wow. Looking at Stockholm on OpenStreetMap, the network is already impressively comprehensive.

roylonergan.bsky.social•33 days ago

Coín toss with Belfast.

kennystew.art•33 days ago

Behind Glasgow?

alexmassie.bsky.social•33 days ago

Pretty sure Edinburgh has above average productivity too.

duncanrobinson.bsky.social•33 days ago

Already has a tram too, accompanied by world’s most expensive PDF

babsmac.bsky.social•33 days ago

Glasgow doesn't have a tram

andytk.bsky.social•32 days ago

We have below average productivity tho....just kidding, I've no idea about that. We do have our cute little subway though...

paulcconnell.bsky.social•33 days ago

Check our all the stops maps

Might help

https://open-innovations.org/blog/2025-04-03-all-the-bus-tram-metro-and-rail-stops-in-great-britain

navarthian.bsky.social•33 days ago

Leeds, then Bradford, I suspect

groda.eu•33 days ago

What about the biggest city without a metro? Is it Dublin?

adamlbrown.bsky.social•33 days ago

Dart?

groda.eu•33 days ago

Dart? Is that a city?

adamlbrown.bsky.social•33 days ago

Dublin area rapid transport, from memory. I've used it to get out to tallaght

dotskyy.bsky.social•33 days ago

It doesn't go to Tallaght, you probably got the Luas (light rail).
DART runs along the coast, is electric trains.

crookedfootball.bsky.social•33 days ago

You could make massive improvements to Bristol’s bus and rail networks for a fraction of the cost of reintroducing trams

16leiba.bsky.social•33 days ago

Focusing on the rail network means dealing with capacity at Temple Meads and delays caused by services from Birmingham, Exeter etc., which wouldn't (necessarily) be the case for a metro or tram.

ambrosen.bsky.social•33 days ago

The Portishead reopening has cost what (inflation adjustd) percentage of the cost of the trams in Nottingham?

crookedfootball.bsky.social•33 days ago

You tell me. But in any case, that hardly contradicts my claim, does it?

ambrosen.bsky.social•33 days ago

It's a full tram line that cost twice (in current pricing) as much the Portishead reopening, but only took 10 years from getting the go-ahead to opening (4 years from start of building).

And it carries 9 million people a year at 7 minute intervals, as opposed to 1.2 million (projected) once an hour

duncanrobinson.bsky.social•33 days ago

And yet they remain unimproved

crookedfootball.bsky.social•33 days ago

Well that's not strictly true although Metrobus isn't what it might have been, and besides, you are hardly contradicting my claim.

duncanrobinson.bsky.social•33 days ago

I know it’s very “can’t be 20£ on the pavement…” but think if it were that cheap and easy it would have been done. If you’re right tho can just do both! Why choose?

jonnelledge.bsky.social•33 days ago

Also "why would they need that!" is so often the reaction in this country to a thing that a) most European cities have and b) London had loads of. "Major British cities should have better fixed transport" is not a controversial take!

crookedfootball.bsky.social•33 days ago

I'd not be unhappy to have trams, but I think that some urbanists suffer from tram fetishism when buses can offer much better vfm and aren't really that different if you have dedicate lanes, quasi-stations etc, like in Bogota

oldboysmith.bsky.social•33 days ago

They remain unimproved because the mayor was far more interested in gimmicks, and photo ops with his dog, than improving the bus service. Ie getting on with franchising. He has £105 million for bus improvement that he could have done a lot with

rogerday.bsky.social•33 days ago

People keep cutting services

omegajak.bsky.social•33 days ago

Honestly, speaking as a Bristolian, the *absolute* best thing you could do to improve public transport in Bristol would be to arrest every member of the senior management of FirstBus. They've been in charge of the buses here for decades and have only ever got worse, more late, and more expensive.

dsquareddigest.bsky.social•33 days ago

it is the only city in Europe which has a massive aerospace factory located precisely in a place that is considered part of it for some statistics but not others, in a way that strongly suggests that someone specifically wanted to f**k with economic geographers

roylonergan.bsky.social•33 days ago

Motorway to the aerospace factory. Backroads to the airport.

dsquareddigest.bsky.social•33 days ago

the location of Airbus Broughton, 10 miles across the Welsh border from Chester, is further evidence that the aerospace industry is doing it on purpose

oldboysmith.bsky.social•33 days ago

And with the people who live there. There was nothing wrong with Avon, but some idiots divided it up into the mess it is now. Belatedly slapped WECA onto it, which created such dysfunctionality, it ended up in special measures

dsquareddigest.bsky.social•33 days ago

I am still furious that the local authority covering Bristol, Bath and northeast Somerset wasn't called "Brisbane"

citizen689.bsky.social•32 days ago

There used to be a tram in Bristol, long gone. It's been a recurring issue for many decades. Because of the cost and the city/region's inability to fund or even part fund, they opted for a "metro bus"(it's only a bus) with partly dedicated lanes. Am sure it's useful to some but a tram it is not.

mrtpsm.bsky.social•33 days ago

Isn’t Bristol also where the BBC produces their David Attenborough documentaries?

I mean any place where a 100 year old worker can pump out the GDP of a small African country on his own is bound to look great on paper.

adamcain.bsky.social•33 days ago

It is.

Remarkably, the whole thing is a result of Sir Peter Scott deciding to create the Severn Wildfowl Trust at Slimbridge (now WWT).

adamcain.bsky.social•33 days ago

(At least, largely.)

mrtpsm.bsky.social•33 days ago

…and the BBC having to relocate during WWII, right?

adamcain.bsky.social•33 days ago

Maybe, I’m not sure.

As I understand it, one particular BBC producer who happened to be based in Bristol (possibly due to the war? I don;’t know) was into nature and wanted to feature it on TV when it took off.

Scott/Slimbridge was up the road and turned out to be good at TV.

mrtpsm.bsky.social•33 days ago

Count your lucky stars then that BBC got there before Walt Disney, who produced nature content for decades.

robwilliams100.bsky.social•33 days ago

After Leeds, you mean? The UK's development of tram schemes over the last 40 years has been beyond pathetic https://www.citymonitor.ai/analysis/why-light-rail-still-sidings-case-trams-4957/

savagerat.bsky.social•32 days ago

The tram in Edinburgh is fucking shit and saddled the city with a billion in debt.

robwilliams100.bsky.social•32 days ago

It's actually become a massive success after poor planning and construction https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/14003/further-success-for-trams-to-newhaven-as-network-records-its-busiest-ever-weekend

savagerat.bsky.social•32 days ago

(PS. sorry for swearing before, but the tram makes me angry. The fact it's now being sold as a success is unbelievable. They now intend to trash key nature/cycling routes to expand this utter failure, at a cost of £2b++)

savagerat.bsky.social•32 days ago

The fact people travel on it is not indicative of it being a massive success - it has trashed the bus network, so they have to travel on it. It's a massive financial burden on a city that once had a fantastic bus network.

rhinestonebrowboy.bsky.social•32 days ago

How's it trashed the bus network?

savagerat.bsky.social•32 days ago

The one thing I like about the tram is that it makes me fitter, because I now walk everywhere rather than getting the bus. The buses just don't turn up and, when they do, they take ages to get anywhere, because of the tram.

That would be ok if the tram was any good, but it's extremely limited.

dburx.bsky.social•33 days ago

Yes, London too, one Tram line gets us out of the "none" category but doesn't exactly cut it. We could have more including in places they used to be.

danielphilips.bsky.social•33 days ago

It has more than 1 tram line.

dburx.bsky.social•33 days ago

Well, yes, all in the south. Most of London is unaffected or aware of them.

danielphilips.bsky.social•33 days ago

But it’s built docklands light rail and the overground, if you can fully grade seperate why have trams.

dburx.bsky.social•33 days ago

Sure, but there are areas that used to have trams, no longer do, and little else has been done, and so are clogged with cars. More could be done in London.

dlynch.bsky.social•33 days ago

I dunno, but I think London may have an underground system, which ever so slightly changes the calculus.

danielphilips.bsky.social•33 days ago

And it has expanded rail too.

jonnyhibberd.bsky.social•32 days ago

My part of London doesn't have the underground or trams

comradepangloss.bsky.social•33 days ago

England needs time to reflect on its past before considering its future.

Change is hard for an upper class that is descended from Bill the Conker King

fu-kung-panda.bsky.social•33 days ago

Glasgow has no trams, 3rd largest city in the UK from the source I looked at (stats were from 2021)

duncanrobinson.bsky.social•33 days ago

Yah meant light rail /metro or whatever the proper definition is

fu-kung-panda.bsky.social•33 days ago

apologies, I scanned the replied but it was probably made clear in those.

andydrummond.bsky.social•33 days ago

Aye, apparently the Subway counts though.

stuarthedges.bsky.social•33 days ago

Not only that, the bus service is absolutely terrible.

bmcleish.bsky.social•33 days ago

Glasgow is bigger than Bristol and doesn't have a tram.

radiohead319.bsky.social•23 days ago

It's underground is better than Bristol's though!

radiohead319.bsky.social•23 days ago

Its

nearlytoolate.bsky.social•33 days ago

Leeds?

acjsissons.bsky.social•33 days ago

Might consider this as a future career direction…

acjsissons.bsky.social•33 days ago

Even have pictures of Bristol trams on my walls

https://bsky.app/profile/acjsissons.bsky.social/post/3l4p3wgbbwg2t

adamlbrown.bsky.social•33 days ago

There are quite significant plans being developed to improve the coherence of the entire Northern suburbs. I've only been peripherally involved so don't know all the details. They've been looking at successful small European cities for inspiration though.

muireadhaigh.bsky.social•33 days ago

Leeds has no tram - yet

swalesmetroprof.bsky.social•33 days ago

There is a reason for that...and its constitutional....
https://swalesmetroprof.blog/2024/11/14/why-the-uks-city-regions-need-metros/

mat8iou.bsky.social•32 days ago

I'm still waiting for the light rail from Bristol to Portishead to open on the abandoned lines. It has been talked about for years - but doesn't look like much is happening the last time I passed it.

bristolanteater.bsky.social•32 days ago

Can confirm enabling works are proceeding along the currently used section of the line to avonmouth. Will believe it when I see work on the track to portishead tough! :)

jonnelledge.bsky.social•32 days ago

They're reopening that. Very slowly but they are.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/western/the-portishead-line/