*very* cheeky of the Guardian to illustrate this with a picture of Farthing Down, a site of special scientific interest and thus absolutely not the sort of horrible scrubland the mayor's talking about here - ThreadSky

jonnelledge.bsky.social • 22 days ago

*very* cheeky of the Guardian to illustrate this with a picture of Farthing Down, a site of special scientific interest and thus absolutely not the sort of horrible scrubland the mayor's talking about here

Reposted from The Guardian

Sadiq Khan to announce plans to build houses on London green belt

Comments

londoninnit.bsky.social•22 days ago

Have you seen Russell Curtis's piece about building on golf courses?

Up here in Barnet, we have plenty, and there are a few more over the border in Hertsmere
https://golfbelt.russellcurtis.co.uk/

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

Not only seen, but written about - it's a great piece of work

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2021/09/golfs-stranglehold-on-land-in-london-should-be-broken

stephenh.bsky.social•22 days ago

Click bait for NIMBYs

johnweston.bsky.social•22 days ago

Thanks for pointing this out. Now you have, I'm immediately angry at the effect this has on readers' perceptions of green spaces. I think the Guardian ought to have a coherent policy on this if it cares about biodiversity, wellbeing, journalistic integrity, etc. "Cheeky" is putting it mildly!

nfrostie.bsky.social•22 days ago

And yet they managed to write this article in 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/22/plantwatch-green-belt-wasteland-countryside

chris198485.bsky.social•22 days ago

Hmmm, im with you in theory, but scub land can be very rich habitat.

thatdocphoenix.com•22 days ago

I see all the scrubbers (fans of scrub) are here

garretbeggan.bsky.social•22 days ago

People with legitimate concerns about where they will dump soiled mattresses and dismembered bodies... 😬

jon-moses.bsky.social•22 days ago

You'll tilt environmentalists by talking about scrub as horrible - it's one of the best habitat types we have and a lot of specialist birds rely on it (loss of scrubland is one of the reasons for nightingale declines). Swing thy axe at some barren fields instead 😉 (though all land can recover...)

guyshrubsole.bsky.social•22 days ago

Snap:

https://bsky.app/profile/guyshrubsole.bsky.social/post/3lopxq3d62226

aeonmach.bsky.social•22 days ago

Perhaps need to stop using the term in the UK! Use ‘shrubland’ instead…

‘Scrub(land)’ ass’d with scrubby (obvs, but stunted, -ive connotations), hardscrabble & grubby and a perception of dry infertile(?) land in eg US: low, desert, needly ‘scrub’ that often really doesn’t reflect lovely rich(!) UK

jon-moses.bsky.social•22 days ago

👆 may I present exhibit A of a tilted environmentalist 😆

Nature rich development is also possible - in some cases will be better than the 'green' land use it replaces, just requires some will / some imagination / probably the kind of regulation Labour are dumping in the shredder.

timmorton2.bsky.social•22 days ago

I think I heard a nightingale sing in Berkeley Square, hardly scrubland

duncanjonesmerrion.bsky.social•22 days ago

That was a Starling calling darling.
(In the location/period appropriate accent the last 3 words should rhyme)

fullydecaffeinated.bsky.social•22 days ago

I thought the same. People in my town are always complaining about housing being built in green belt land. It's a load of shitty, unused turnip fields! Build lovely houses and playgrounds!

leemelin.bsky.social•22 days ago

Hmm… “horrible scrubland”? Just as tone deaf as the GB fetishists.

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

oh bugger off. I grew up next to the green belt, I can point to half a dozen sites in zones 5 or 6 that are undeveloped while also being bloody horrible, those are clearly what I meant. engage with the spirit of the argument rather than picking on the exact wording.

leemelin.bsky.social•22 days ago

Easy tiger, we’re on the same side. Maybe the difference between politics and planning, but words are as important as the spirit. They can feed the anti-devt. narrative.

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

If you want people to think you're on the same side you should rethink the tone of the first thing you say to them

leemelin.bsky.social•22 days ago

Yep, that’s a fair point. Apologies.

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

Fair play. x

andraswf.bsky.social•22 days ago

why do you hate waffles, Jonn

victoriadecapua.bsky.social•22 days ago

they are rather messy to make.

victoriadecapua.bsky.social•22 days ago

without a context this is a strange comment.

joelrawlings.bsky.social•22 days ago

Would be far more interesting if they were going to build on golf courses which are far more horrible than scrubland

alanf.bsky.social•22 days ago

Looks like standard Grauniad catastrophising to me.

myshka689908.bsky.social•22 days ago

I wouldn't expect anything else from them. The replies suggest people have gone for it hook, line, and sinker.

edjefferson.com•22 days ago

tag yourself im the map that highlights regents park as though sadiq khan is going to turn it into a housing estate

andrewsawyou.bsky.social•22 days ago

Scrubland is in the eye of the beholder. Look closer and you will see a habitat for small birds, mammals and invertebrates. Who will defend them if not you?

phildeegz.bsky.social•22 days ago

I feel like 'Green Belt' is one of about 4 things every student in the UK remembers from Geography lessons (longshore drift, anyone?) and as such is held weirdly sacrosanct by a lot of the public

stunathan.bsky.social•22 days ago

Oxbow lakes.

marsflyerpaul.bsky.social•22 days ago

You're main point is very valid - The Guardian shouldn't have used that photo to illustrate the story.

luketurner.bsky.social•22 days ago

I fear for your mentions if some people see “horrible scrubland” as a thing to be built on haha. (Surely we can just use golf courses?)

usagi3939.bsky.social•22 days ago

I liked more the fact you picked up on it being Farthing Down (I'll take your word for it), which could be a Guardian slow-wink to Colin Dann's Farthing Wood series; the premise of which was a narrative about and against the development of natural habitats. Just hypothesising :)

johnhaines.bsky.social•22 days ago

An alternative would be to ensure that the housing built on brownfield sites within London goes to the people who need it, rather than foreign investors.

dr-rachel-taylor.bsky.social•22 days ago

Also foreign investors are either renting housing out (presumably to people who feel they need it or want it, & would otherwise be displacing others) or taking a bet on prices continuing to rise (because there’s not enough being built.) So building more helps in general!

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

No it wouldn't be an alternative, we still wouldn't be building enough and would have to build more.

baszkom.bsky.social•22 days ago

NIMBY's gonna NIMBY.

andrewcraig.bsky.social•22 days ago

Scrubland is not horrible.

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

anyway this is good, I think? "building on the worst green belt with the best transport links, and using affordable housing provision and improved access to green space to justify it" is basically what I've been demanding for a decade now

danielphilips.bsky.social•22 days ago

Thought the same thing…. Would love to have the green belts PR team.

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

but as always happens when a politician adopts my policy preferences I'm now terrified the voters are going to hate it, and he's just handed outer London to Farage

wendycp.bsky.social•22 days ago

Sutton are prime for Reform in a GE. Anti ULEz & Brexit voting. Thankfully LD council due to demographics for local elections. LD this time for MPs due to terrible Tories. I fear for the area though

onebiskuit.bsky.social•22 days ago

Perhaps it will be like that new development in Henley, where the new residents of phase 1 are objecting to phase 2?

norock.bsky.social•22 days ago

Ah, the specialist "I can remember it was all fields here, except the bit I moved onto"

mostfoolhardy.bsky.social•22 days ago

given that even the guardians map of this is labelled with hampstead heath etc, i'm guessing probably

jwsal.bsky.social•22 days ago

I think there are about 10 other ways that he’s already handing most of the country to that man.

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

a few people making this point. happy to accept that either I'm misusing the term to refer to something else, or that that there are biodiversity reasons to build elsewhere even if I'm not. I'd start with the golf courses tbh.

adamcobb.bsky.social•22 days ago

I feel it may be a word like ‘decimate’, where Guy is 100% technically correct but the average person’s understanding of it is different (although that may be me covering for the fact that I was also misusing it)

martindor.bsky.social•22 days ago

Gumping Common in the Green Belt, when a field in the 60’s, was proposed for housing. These didn’t happen and it became populated with scrubs. It’s now is wooded and part of a Site of Special Scientific Interest. Should it have been built on under these plans?
https://www.goparks.london/park/gumping-common/

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

Do you think it is my job to spend my morning researching this so I can give you an answer? Because it isn't and I'm not going to

martindor.bsky.social•22 days ago

Jonn it was a rhetorical question. I know of sites in Bromley which are more “grey belt”. I was highlighting how some sites evolve over time to become precious. This is part of the objection to building on them. A proper evaluation combined with enhancement of other places seems way forward.

edstott.bsky.social•22 days ago

I'd start with the horse pastures

cardinal1608.bsky.social•22 days ago

They are all being mad. To describe something as "horrible scrubland" obviously doesn't mean that all scrub is horrible, to anyone who can read English and comprehend in good faith. "We should knock down horrible houses". What, you say all houses are horrible? Even Blenheim Palace?

mjcycle.bsky.social•22 days ago

No, but if you follow environmental/farming issues then it's very common to hear all scrubland criticised. So no it's not clear that John just meant horrible examples of scrubland - the English language is confusing like that. "horrible scrubland" could be a redundant adjective for emphasis

alanbeattie.bsky.social•22 days ago

Christ alive Jonn you’ve riled Big Scrub and the hawthorn industry. Run, run for your life!

guyshrubsole.bsky.social•22 days ago

Funny. Can confirm that hedges have considerably less influence in these arguments than hedge fund managers

alanbeattie.bsky.social•22 days ago

My dad always claims that “gorse” and “furze” are the only true synonyms in the English language. No clue how he got hold of this idea but he believes it fervently.

edjefferson.com•22 days ago

you say we should build more houses but have you considered the mobile yurt

emilyoram.bsky.social•22 days ago

Reclaim Bishop's Avenue imo

kevinmarks.com•22 days ago

The CPRE says build on car parks https://www.cprelondon.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/The-real-grey-belt.pdf

loungeiguana.bsky.social•22 days ago

Yes please. All golf courses should be (1) solar farms or (2) housing.

No I don't play golf, why do you ask

jamesldouglass.bsky.social•22 days ago

I, too, thought "scrub" just meant "rubbish land where nothing grows" and I grew up in the countryside. I assumed you meant eg "disused petrol stations that have grass growing through the concrete" or "one of those old pubs you drive past that have rotted back to the timbers"

doktorg.bsky.social•22 days ago

It would definitely be a good thing to see some of these wasteful and indulgent golf courses turned over to support new housing developments.

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

I apologise for my misleading language and am very happy to issue this clarification

salvey1.bsky.social•22 days ago

Well thanks for that earworm

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

okay last post on this before I walk the dog:

I think we need to slightly expand the footprint of London to meet housing demand, and that not all green belt is worth saving. I am allowed to hold those views - even though I cannot explain at this juncture exactly which land I would build on!

melonni.bsky.social•22 days ago

Or expand other cites elsewhere & not in the drought prone crowded south east

stephencobden.bsky.social•22 days ago

The green belt just moves development from cities (where the jobs, transport, etc) to the home counties (where they aren't). A field still goes either way.

edjefferson.com•22 days ago

blink if Big Golf has got to you

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

There's a planner in my mentions being weirdly furious at me for not being able to clarify exactly which land I'm talking about, when working that out sounds a lot more like his job than mine?

oldhamletsghost.bsky.social•22 days ago

That's not good enough... you need to explicitly detail every square yard you are going to destroy...the Greens

magsmanston.bsky.social•22 days ago

I really don't feel like you're advocating for the end of environmental surveys and the like. Although you don't say it - I feel like some kind of cost:benefit analysis is absolutely implied in your value judgement of good vs bad greenbelt. It just can't be a blanket no. People need to get a grip.

spinebusterkeaton.bsky.social•22 days ago

Hi, ecologist here, I think I can help:

A scrub is a guy that thinks he’s fly (and is also known as a busta).

There’s general consensus in the community that he’s always talking about what he wants and just sits on his broke ass.

upsilonmale.bsky.social•22 days ago

Easily identified by the fact that he's hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, usually trying to holler at his quarry.

davidpattie.bsky.social•22 days ago

Look folks, I've got work to do. It's not going to happen if you keep distracting me with effective humour.

I can't redraft this book and laugh at the same time. C'mon. I'm only human.

fieldbean.bsky.social•22 days ago

That's why he wants no scrubs?

jowilliams.bsky.social•22 days ago

Turf farms.

richardkbroughton.bsky.social•22 days ago

Farming England's golf courses could generate about 1 million extra tonnes of wheat (back of envelope). But also horse paddocks: huge areas on prime lowlands. Food security & land scarcity can't be so bad if golf and horses can occupy vast productive land for the benefit of so few.

guyshrubsole.bsky.social•22 days ago

Thanks Jonn. Me too! - https://whoownsengland.org/2020/04/14/who-owns-londons-golf-courses/

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

I LOVE Beckenham Place Park, one of my favourite bits of London green space

richarddwyer.bsky.social•22 days ago

Golf courses in London really should all be destroyed.

Although I'm a moderate so I don't belive in criminal prosecution for the owners, although I could be persuaded.

chompmancobra.bsky.social•22 days ago

Criminal prosecution is the moderate option

upsilonmale.bsky.social•22 days ago

My stance on this is more nuanced, but long-held. Golf courses should be rewilded but may also continue to be used as golf courses at the same time. Let's see how committed people are to their Pringle sweaters and stupid hats when a pack of wolves has claimed the 13th green for itself.

kentindell.bsky.social•22 days ago

You probably just have to lift planning restrictions on them and let nature take its course.

jamesbarr.bsky.social•22 days ago

“Turn all golf courses into affordable housing” - I feel like you are onto something.

jamesbarr.bsky.social•22 days ago

Compulsory purchase of Trump’s courses to get things under way.

michael-fox.bsky.social•22 days ago

Scrub is an ecological term. It’s basically in an early successional state with pioneer species moving in.

There is scrub of higher or lower quality though.

Also it is not the most ecologically diverse and valuable land there is. You can’t get rid of it all but it’s better than killing a forest.

quarkquent.bsky.social•22 days ago

Even rubbish dumps are vital habitats for some creatures. You honestly can’t please all the people, and anyone taking your post on good faith would know what you meant!

jonnelledge.bsky.social•22 days ago

there are, would you believe, people who don't take it in good faith!

chrisbirder.bsky.social•22 days ago

So what did you mean, when you said 'horrible scrubland'?
It still isn't clear to me.
'Scrubland' tends to be the biodiversity-rich corners and edge-lands between housing, industrial estates, golf courses & horse paddocks in the London surrounds.
What's easy on the eye isn't always easy for nature.

quarkquent.bsky.social•22 days ago

Shocked

purpletea280.bsky.social•22 days ago

Sadly outer London was lost during the ULEZ debate. I live among the bigots of Bexley 😉.

jakernory.bsky.social•22 days ago

I feel I’m the only one who doesn’t want more houses built.

IMO this is a temporary crisis caused by a demographic bulge in the boomer generation.

With proper rent reform and more taxation of property portfolio owners, we would have enough homes in a decade. Especially if immigration is reduced.

jamescelisjones.bsky.social•22 days ago

Probably important he actually does it as quickly as possible so the new voters move in. The death of these things is taking the political hit but not also rushing to get the upside.

grumpybb.bsky.social•22 days ago

The Guardian being disingenuous again….. never 🙄🙄

judeet44.bsky.social•22 days ago

Completely unsurprising from the Guardian, always looking to diss Khan and Labour, no matter how much it means printing false info.

guyshrubsole.bsky.social•22 days ago

Jonn, can you give us an example of ‘horrible scrubland’? Because that picture does show scrub. Scrub is simply hawthorn, blackthorn, gorse, brambles. In the SE of England it’s a key habitat for nightingales.

(Yes, I want more houses built. I’d also love people to stop bashing scrub)

twoev.bsky.social•22 days ago

There’s an old petrol station that is now a car park/warehouse near me that is green belt. It’s a few hundred metres from the tube. Just next to it is a new development, but I presume they can’t knock the petrol station down. The other side of it is genuine greenery - don’t touch that

londoner-woman.bsky.social•22 days ago

Could the petrol station now be contaminated land after being used for fuel storage? Unlikely a developer would want to deal with that unless serious potential profit involved.