One of the best pubs in London struggling for survival because planning is stacked in favour of some powerful NIMBYs. Everything that’s wrong with Britain.
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As long as pubs comply with the rules I don't think ppl who knowingly move near a pub should be able to complain abt it. Happened to a pub in the next village. They had to remove outside seating due to complaint from woman over road. It was never noisy just ppl chatting. Ridiculous.
It seems like every Local Authority has an example of this Jonny come lately nimbyism. Newcastle’s, The Cooperage, is approaching 600 years old, assuming it lasts another six years having been closed due to noise complaints. The Owner (a solicitor….) refuses to maintain it, so destined to collapse.
Unfortunately it's an age-old tactic - cheaper to buy near a busy venue as fewer people want the noise. Then complain, complain, complain until it's shut down, and watch as the value of your property goes up.
Hey Lewis, this has absolutely nothing to do with planning. It us a licensing issue and your post is proof that the vast majority of journalists know sweet FA about local government!
So a 200 year old pub, are any residents still living there from before it's opening? And suddenly, ?? years after the indoor smoking ban, outside noise is suddenly an issue?
And those people complaining all bought there after the pub was established. People should not be able to complain about noise from local pubs/bars/nightclubs that are there before they buy
There’s far too many pubs in this country. No body did this shit when sports shops were eaten up by corporations. Folk rattle on about pubs and then funding the NHS. There’s a connection.
I grew up in a small, rural town and when people bought a house next door to one of the towns three pubs they lobbied the town council about the noise.
A Councillor politely asked them how they coped with the noise of the bells from the town church over the road, "Oh we are used to that".
I used to work for a County Council and I didn't have much time for complainants. One guy phoned in and demanded he spoke to "someone in authority" then said I've spoken to three people in your dept and they were really rude and now I've spoken to you I know why. It made my day & the other staff
Hi, I’m a planner with specialism in ‘agent of change’ and pubs within the planning system. Clearly something has failed, would be good to know full story. But surely either this is the opposite of NIMBYs in planning as something has been built, or planning is again unfairly being used as a punchbag
This used to be my local when I lived in Clerkenwell. It’s not just about selfish neighbours, but selfish neighbours in the centre of London. Of course there will be noise!
There is a group of people who move into an area because of its ambience and edginess, but soon tire of it and want to stop the things that made them move there. Like those New Yorkers moaning about black people playing music in Central Park on Sundays.
And this is why we need a business protection plan. You can only complain if a business changes its model. You can't move in next to a pub and complain about noise.
A lot of pubs have more outside activity now as a result of the smoking ban and Covid changes. I have some sympathy with the neighbours in many cases. Nothing to do with nimbyism and more to do with people drinking on the street.
It's a lovely pub and not remotely rowdy, it just has people meeting friends and chatting. It's almost certainly new people who have moved in and now want to start complaining. It should be given short shrift
Hmm. It’s licensing, not planning. A lot I could criticise in that consciously deregulatory regime, but I can’t see that affording a say to the general public (not just the powerful, not just NIMBY’s) is everything that’s wrong with the Licensing Act 2003, let alone with Britain!
Reminds me of the noise complaints from people who decide to move close to airports that were built 80+ years ago, and are then OUTRAGED that they can hear planes taking off and landing.
"I used to go to the pub when l was young but now I'm too old for it l don't want the next generations to have their fun. So I'm going to lobby my council to shut that shit down so l can watch Strictly and Britain's Got Talent in peace on a Saturday night".
Reminds me of the pub where Iron Maiden used to play (Ruskin Arms); I tried to ask the bar staff to hold on to a 4pt jug I had from the SU - they filled it up instead - then the landlord chased me around asking for an arm wrestle.
As long as they aren't blocking the path and/or forcing you to walk through a smog bank to get in/past I don't see the issue with drinking outside (drunken assholery excepted, obvs)...
Islington council have always been awful for this. The problem is residents have votes whereas pubs don't even though the pubs have been there a lot longer than the residents. The Kings Head has been constantly under threat particularly since the post office development.
Surely the people that live there realised there was a pub in the area before moving there. It’s not as if it’s just opened - it’s been there since 1829!
It's mad that repeatedly people move into an area due to its vibrancy and atmosphere, and then the first thing they do is complain and try to remove venues that gave the area it's vibe 🤦🏾♂️
If you move next to a thriving pub, maybe be prepared for pub like things to emanate from said neighbour. 🙄 I love in a village which had gone from 7 to 2. All are converted to residential, and it threatens to make the place soulless.
I recently moved into a flat directly opposite a pub and wouldn’t DREAM of complaining. It’s something we decided we’re happy to deal with and is why the flat was less expensive.
I’m an Islington resident and will be sure to email.
Reminds me of my neighbours in SW London who MOVE INTO HOMES next to HEATHROW AIRPORT and then start whining about planes. I mean… what did they think was going to happen?
The voice of objection is louder and planning depts weirdly susceptible to the naysayer. I make a point of supporting applications where I live. Silent support gets you nowhere.
At least they're being noisy outside an actual pub. Where I live they just stand around getting hammered on street corners. Everyone's too frightened of them to do anything other than clear up the mess on volunteer litter picks. Every day.
One of the worst examples of this was when Night & Day Cafe in Manchester got dragged through the courts, following a complaint from someone who moved into a nearby flat during lockdown, and was then horrified, horrified(!), to learn that a music venue might host and play music.
And then the complainant moved away leaving a trail of costs for others to pay!
I think the bloke who started this nonsense and cost not only the Night & Day a serious amount of money, but the council tax payers of GM, to waste a serious amount of moneys, should be held accountable…financially?
(Eventually a compromise was reached, but the time and money spent on it was such a huge waste. Anyway, N&D is thankfully still going, and still hosting gigs!)
An institution and could never operate without the outdoor area. It’s doubly frustrating that most tenants can never get the council or environmental health round when they have nuisance neighbours living in their building. Total double standard.
To paraphrase Mr Clarkson, it’s a result of a ‘classic’ sense of entitlement - in that it seems to go with those who’ve bought into a nice neighbourhood with a big helping hand from the bank of mater & pater. If Gentrification means anything - in my experience - it means this.
This is so insane. A similar thing happened with the 340 year-old Plume of Feathers in Greenwich back in the early noughties. Someone bought a flat a few doors down and then put in complaints about the noise - it turned out ok for the pub but it caused them no end of distress.
Surely you'd be aware of the possibility that a pub would generate a bit of noise when you moved in nearby? As long at it doesn't go on too much after 11pm why should anyone mind?
A mate of mine runs a few gigs. A guy opposite the venue called the police for every one in the programme. They ",had words" after he complained about noise from one that had been cancelled.
It’s ridiculous. When we bought our house in 2005, there was a pub opposite & for a short while it was a bit of a pain in the arse with the smoking ban as everyone chatted outside & scrapped with other pissheads on way home. But between dark mutterings also accepted we knew it was there !
Indeed. The excellent and long-established Fleece in Bristol was under threat because developers turned an office block nearby into flats, then moaned about the noise. Boils my blood.
There are people who move within a mile of an airport and complain about noise, or move to the countryside and complain about cocks crowing in the morning. These people need to be ridiculed yet...
Here in Spain we have venues closed down for breaking ridiculously low sound limits. One bar was told that, in the evening, nothing higher than 48 decibels was allowed.
NIMBYs gotta NIMBY. I live in a rural area, people move here to complain that there aren't any streetlights, that "fields should be for cows not solar panels"* and "the lane is mucky".
*Complainants bungalow is built on a former wildflower meadow, and the solar panel field was never used for cows.
There is a strong case for reforming the law to nix any noise complaint from church bells, motor racing circuits, RAF bases, farms, pubs, music venues, unless there’s been a significant change in volume or frequency.
It is bonkers to live next to a pub and expect it not to generate noise.
If it were a new pub I'd understand, but everyone who lives there, moved there, knowing there was a pub there.
If you don't like the noise why the hell did you move near a pub?
It would have to have been passed down at least 5 generations for the 'should I live near a pub' question not to be raised
There are few things I hold in greater contempt than people who move near a pub or venue and then complain about the noise. You don't get to rock up and demand the cultural denudation of the neighbourhood just because you're an antisocial dickhead.
I don’t agree, I moved opposite a pub some 40 years ago. During this time the legislation controlling the noise has been reduced dramatically, also the landlords kept control of the noise, nowadays landlords do nothing, they are scared of confrontation. Also opening times have increased dramatically
Unjust application of rights to peaceful enjoyment is a business, and community, killer.
For all responsible, professional, publican licensees noise complaints made by unreasonable, vexatious, sociopathic neighbours is a dreadful reality that makes a licensees' blood run cold
Lawyers and our liable laws need looking at. My town they did the same. Built residential or care homes so noise had to be monitored. Used to have a great nightlife but it attracted violence and all the glamour. Fine line with trust. But lawyers help pass liability on and away from society.
Pubs attached to housing blocks/in residential areas are endangered. Being closed for absence reasons. In Liverpool they built apartments near a historic and well known music venue then the residents had the music venue closed down 🤯🤯 surely they understand when they move near these places
Seen/still seeing this happening all over Edinburgh, lots of good Pubs and Clubs having to close after noise complaints from people who chose to move next to a social hub.
Could you please add alt text when you post pictures, so visually impaired users can have the same experience that sighted people do?
Thanks in advance!
My kids play rugby at the Memorial Grounds in Gloucester, local residents have started complaining about the noise the lids make at practice on a Sunday morning. Just found someone has marked it as permanently closed on Google Maps!
I ran 2 pubs with beer gardens that were not allowed to be used after 19:00 due to complaints from neighbours about noise. Then we were stopped playing music after 21:00. The pubs had been there since 1536 and 1400 respectively and then neighbours were new build flats. It’s a ridiculous situation
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They then complained about the noise of racing vehicles, nearly getting it shut down...
(No, seriously, best of luck saving the pub.)
A Councillor politely asked them how they coped with the noise of the bells from the town church over the road, "Oh we are used to that".
Miller v Jackson [1977] QB 966.
“The animals did not mind the cricket.”
It's like complaining about the bells of the old church in the village you chose to move to.
Muppets 🙄
At 20:00, join us for our other big story of today: Aeroplanes have been heard by residents near Gatwick Airport!
😮💨
No compromise on this
Was a bit sad
I’m an Islington resident and will be sure to email.
It’s a pattern repeated all over the country, sadly
I think the bloke who started this nonsense and cost not only the Night & Day a serious amount of money, but the council tax payers of GM, to waste a serious amount of moneys, should be held accountable…financially?
A bit like people moving to a village and moaning about the church bells…
Time to put more pressure on the law makers and decision makers.
https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/licensing/399-licensing-news/57382-agent-of-change-principles-should-be-enshrined-in-law-select-committee-says
*Complainants bungalow is built on a former wildflower meadow, and the solar panel field was never used for cows.
It is bonkers to live next to a pub and expect it not to generate noise.
If you don't like the noise why the hell did you move near a pub?
It would have to have been passed down at least 5 generations for the 'should I live near a pub' question not to be raised
For all responsible, professional, publican licensees noise complaints made by unreasonable, vexatious, sociopathic neighbours is a dreadful reality that makes a licensees' blood run cold
#SavingBritainsPubs
Getting paid time and a half to go to the pub.
Thanks in advance!
Who do these people think they are?