Creative Writing/MFA programs are often lacking in useful courses or programs addressing the current state of publishing and/or money management, which I think is a problem, because many of those students will want to enter the stream of commerce and won't know how to look out for themselves there. - ThreadSky

scalzi.com • 100 days ago

Creative Writing/MFA programs are often lacking in useful courses or programs addressing the current state of publishing and/or money management, which I think is a problem, because many of those students will want to enter the stream of commerce and won't know how to look out for themselves there.

Reposted from A.T. Prenger

I mean, it was always telling to me that as I was getting my Creative Writing degree there were zero classes on selling a novel.

Comments

knapsack77.bsky.social•100 days ago

Hello from seminary education for parish ministry! Same same.

theelaineg.bsky.social•100 days ago

My MLitt at Glasgow went into getting published and dealing with editing etc. but yes it was at indie / art pub level, not agent / career / living wage level

duncanpepperwat.bsky.social•100 days ago

Having just published through a hybrid publisher, I can say that the process was very much throw you in the deep end and told “swim”

brianxrayfilms.bsky.social•100 days ago

It’s not just writing. I was taught how to make documentaries, but I wasn’t taught how to pitch or sell them. Or how to break into the industry. It took me years to decipher the different meanings of “producer.” There’s more to being an artist than the art and schools rarely teach any of it.

bandcgames.bsky.social•99 days ago

Similarly I went through 4 years of engineering school without any training in public speaking. I almost fainted at my first design review

madammem.bsky.social•99 days ago

There is a lot of theory taught in fields without the practical aspects.

My husband complains that his engineering school didn't teach enough about writing documents and keeping track of design/implementation changes.

I have a masters in finance but never traded until after graduation

bandcgames.bsky.social•99 days ago

Schools definitely need some updating

sharonwoodhouse.bsky.social•99 days ago

Former book publisher. Have become an evangelist for entrepreneurship and business education for authors but TBH it can be a hard sell.

maarmstrong.bsky.social•99 days ago

My MFA thesis was my first science fiction novel. I learned zip in the program about how to publish. (I learned a lot more at Clarion and through SFWA.) Fortunately I had an editor who recommended me to her agent. He sold my novel a week after I got my MFA.

haharuffo.bsky.social•99 days ago

Wow, a week? Good for you

anjasprods.bsky.social•100 days ago

Even in the most commercial of arts, graphic design, there is a notable lack of business regimen or understanding. I thinks the “arts” have followed the belief that it is beneath them for most of history.

mikevago.bsky.social•100 days ago

I worked in book publishing art departments where I, with an English degree from SUNY Buffalo, taught Photoshop and InDesign to the art school grads because they don’t teach practical skills.

mikevago.bsky.social•100 days ago

Not that SUNY Buffalo taught practical skills either! Every job skill I have I got from running the campus radio station and art-directing the campus magazine.

madammem.bsky.social•99 days ago

Do they have classes on contract law and/or IP?

I would imagine that would also be useful for understanding what you are signing and advocating for yourself.

fenrir1377.bsky.social•100 days ago

Having earned my MFA within the last 5 years, I can honestly agree with this. But will add: MFA programs need to stop trying to force writers toward vanity and self-publishing when it isn’t the only option available.

tekhnemakre.bsky.social•99 days ago

It also seems like a lot of those programs are geared toward teaching you how to write for other writers, instead of how to write for readers. Maybe that's an arbitrary distinction?

jmashek.bsky.social•100 days ago

After my curling game the other night I was sitting between a lawyer and a law student, both of whom had taken classes on the business of independent law offices. I was surprised that this was a thing, though it seems incredibly useful.

melaniermeadors.bsky.social•100 days ago

And be many thousands of dollars in debt as well.

dchauser.com•99 days ago

With the litfic/ poetry focus of most MFA programs, I would imagine that's intentional. I've seen far too many ppl who look down on ppl who want to make money writing. To them, you should suffer for your art and work another job to support it.

faythompsonauthor.bsky.social•100 days ago

when I was at berkeley the professor had me answer questions - he had never submitted a short story to a magazine and didn't know where to begin. This shouldn't happen.

nhattawa.bsky.social•99 days ago

I think there is a disconnect in the creative education world and the rest of the world. It views itself as too pure and sees selling as dirty. Which possibly explains? It’s kept my wife from pursuing it over other degrees, cause well we kind of need stable income now.

isobelcarr.com•100 days ago

When I got my MFA 30 years ago, this was literally the collective criticism the entire class gave the program. They taught us nothing about getting an agent, getting published, submitting to publishers/magazines, etc.

smokang-catus.bsky.social•99 days ago

I’m glad you’re still taking about this. It’s impossible that you remember me (used a different name on X), but I’ve asked you about this stuff in the past and you helped point me in the right direction. Never got published, but some of my friends did and I was able to help them as a result. Thanks.

cbarzak.bsky.social•100 days ago

I build these aspects into my creative writing courses because I don’t think there’s really think there’s enough to teach for a full semester on the subject and many MFA students want the keys to the publishing kingdom when their work isn’t there yet, and they need to focus on writing.

riecks.bsky.social•100 days ago

Many programs in “the arts” don’t do this. You would think it’s in their own best interest — as graduates that don’t make it in the business aren’t going to be around to be donors, either.

bryndonovan.bsky.social•96 days ago

I not only learned nothing at my MFA program, but I also got talked out of a couple of good instincts (for commercial fiction, though) that I had to relearn later.

keunhae.bsky.social•99 days ago

💯

leftyjennyc.bsky.social•100 days ago

Phenomenal point. My mom published my late father's book posthumously on Kindle & it was a slog for her to navigate how to do it & how to monetize it. I read a ton of genre authors on KU and they have Patreons and publish a lot but I'd bet their income is risible compared to their production/effort.

tinaintheburbs.bsky.social•100 days ago

Apply this to all arts degrees. From my newly-graduated offspring with a new degree in graphic design... not a single class in, say, accounting for freelancers. How to build a freelance business. What to do when you apply to hundreds of jobs for a year and don't even get an interview.

jeffeppenbach.bsky.social•100 days ago

Anecdotally, it sounds like many teaching such programs see getting published (outside of the "correct" journals) as a failure. That if you write something that other people WANT to read, you're not writing the right thing.

davesag.bsky.social•99 days ago

It’s taken me years to get my novel anywhere close to being done. I’m enjoying the writing process immensely. Not sure I’m going to enjoy the pitching / selling / finding a publisher process anywhere near as much. Honestly I wouldn’t know where to start.

atprenger.bsky.social•100 days ago

Even just a class on writing a query letter would’ve been helpful. I know it is constantly changing, but something about selling yourself. I learned all my stuff reading how-to books after I graduated.

sstein.bsky.social•100 days ago

Our program does a lot of this. When I was a student there wasn’t any.

athenae.bsky.social•100 days ago

They just assume you're good at it which ... if I'd known being a writer involved self-promotion I'd be working in a toll booth.

edonald.bsky.social•100 days ago

Mine did not, but I know of several programs that have a lot of programming focused on career and business skills.

cstuarthardwick.com•99 days ago

Kevin Anderson's Superstars seminar is one of the best places to get that. Invite strangers to lunch. Talk. Mingle. Network.

botw78.bsky.social•100 days ago

I think this is common for most of the Arts. Years ago Mass Art (a state funded Fine Arts college) offered a class called the Artist's Survival Course to assist 'about to be grads' in finding work in their field. It was hugely popular. I'd love to see universities offering realistic classes like it

bubbawny69.bsky.social•100 days ago

same with oil paintjng. lots who teach how to paint, design, frame. very few show how to monetize, market, and sell. skills that are essential in EARNING a living. 😎

chrismagilton.bsky.social•100 days ago

A diploma course I did here in Australia back in the day did have a subject called Industry Overview that covered some of this stuff & had a lot of guest lectures from authors & editors etc, but it’s all massively out of date now and I suspect that’s part of the problem - how quickly things change

leegoldberg.bsky.social•100 days ago

The UCR Palm Desert Low-Residency MFA program run by @todgoldberg.bsky.social does *exactly* what you think MFA programs should do... and that's one of the many things that makes it so great. They often invite authors, agent & publishers to speak on those issues. https://palmdesertmfa.ucr.edu

todgoldberg.bsky.social•99 days ago

My brother tells no lies. At least about that.

tearlach87.bsky.social•100 days ago

This is admittedly something that kept/keeps me away from those programs. I kinda wonder if there was a more active/advertised literary zine style thing it would help. I dunno, just a more rigorous and helpful system than the sheer luck and prayers to Odin we got right now.

todgoldberg.bsky.social•99 days ago

That the vast majority don't is a shanda. But also, the vast majority don't even ALLOW you to write genre fiction, as if they should have any say. Hence why 16 years ago, I created an MFA that does the opposte of all that: https://palmdesertmfa.ucr.edu. Why haven't I invited you? What are you doing in June?

scalzi.com•99 days ago

YEAH WHY HAVEN'T YOU INVITED ME TOD

Also I don't know, check with me again when I don't have a book deadline (i.e., early in 2025)

todgoldberg.bsky.social•99 days ago

Deal!

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