Obviously no simple/single/right answer. But I'd say it's a combination of: a) Extreme (Ayn Rand) libertarianism [Musk] b) Looting the state/blatant corruption/rent extraction [Musk & Trump] c) "Know-Nothing" anti-immigration/anti-globalisation/protectionism [Trump & Vance] [1/2] - ThreadSky

jdportes.bsky.social • 29 days ago

Obviously no simple/single/right answer. But I'd say it's a combination of:

a) Extreme (Ayn Rand) libertarianism [Musk]

b) Looting the state/blatant corruption/rent extraction [Musk & Trump]

c) "Know-Nothing" anti-immigration/anti-globalisation/protectionism [Trump & Vance]

[1/2]

Reposted from Gabriel Milland

What is the Trumpian/Muskian/Faragian theory of economics? All of them seem largely uninterested in how you really deliver prosperity. Or, if interested, only interested in a mad way. Like tariffs, or Mars, or Brexit. Some of their hangers-on are only interested in the culture war.

Comments

frenshamrobin.bsky.social•28 days ago

Not a lot more too it than that. All described in detail in the Project 2025 plans. There for all to see on their website.

bbonizzi.bsky.social•28 days ago

I would add mercantilism as the belief that: tariffs- > smaller trade deficits->wealth.

calmerfuture.bsky.social•28 days ago

with a degree of economic autarky

one clear aim is to recreate a lost golden era of manufacturing jobs

a major gripe is unfairness with countries with cheaper workforces, which is why NAFTA under Clinton is reviled

I'm surprised so many seem to be missing this — even if they don't agree with it

bbonizzi.bsky.social•28 days ago

Not sure if trump and musk care about manufacturing as much, but sure that's the grievance of many of their voters.

calmerfuture.bsky.social•28 days ago

Musk probably doesn't, but Trump talked a lot about it on his endless rallies

(just like Biden and Scranton)

it's not sexy or realistic, but I think it's a real issue for his supporters — and he knows it, as do his members of Congress

montypelican.bsky.social•28 days ago

It’s Mafia Economics.

There are only ever two sides in any deal- winners and losers.

For every deal there must be a kickback.

The only thing worth spending money on is the power to make more money in the future.

fullydecaffeinated.bsky.social•28 days ago

The only thing that seems to bond trump and musk is narcissism/sociopathy. They don't care at all about other people. So they steal, destroy, cause pain with glee and laugh at victims. The ideology (America first, techno-utopianism) is superficial and can be jettisoned at any moment.

mrjolly.bsky.social•28 days ago

I’ve got a feeling that they’re using each other here and at some point something will give, each maybe feels the blame can be dumped on the other and sees the other as a useful idiot.

fullydecaffeinated.bsky.social•28 days ago

I think trump is malevolent, musk is just a fool. He'll get dumped as soon as trump thinks he's making him look bad.

phillyrothers.bsky.social•28 days ago

Musk is the attack dog for Republican discipline, who will primary and ruin any Republican stepping out of line. Trump knows this is what is keeping him safe. Musk needs gov contracts especially with leveraged Tesla stock in freefall. The relationship is transactional and symbiotic, not ideological.

chiliconkarma.bsky.social•29 days ago

Musk sueing his customers to come back to twitter is an example that seems to be repeated in his DOGE-era.
Musk also makes examples of "fire before having knowledge". Dude is a manic, oversized example of isolated man crisis.

jdportes.bsky.social•29 days ago

Questions which follow

a) Are these intellectually consistent? Duh, no.

b) Is there *any* intersection in the Venn diagram? Yes [cancelling USAID, science funding, & stealing the money -but arguably limited]

c) Will it (as @drodrik.bsky.social argues) collapse under its contradictions? Dunno...

tendaibsky.bsky.social•28 days ago

Let me tell you as someone who grew up in Zimbabwe - philosophical contradictions do not always simply collapse in on themselves.

Without vigorous resistance, they can be hardwired into the system/cultural psyche such that they are normalised.

That is why current Democrat complacency is alarming.

jdportes.bsky.social•28 days ago

Appending this useful Venn diagram from @huwjdav.bsky.social

churchillsarrow.bsky.social•28 days ago

Musk only wants white South Africans, Russian oligarchs and Indian coders as immigrants.

He belongs in the anti-immigration bucket imho.

andydaly.bsky.social•28 days ago

Is Vance smart enough to actually understand what he stands for?

jdportes.bsky.social•28 days ago

And also this earlier analysis by @adamposen.bsky.social which is looking sadly prescient

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/true-dangers-trump-presidency-economic-plans

arthurb01.bsky.social•28 days ago

I'm really trying to not think this because it's frightening! But I'm afraid I still do

stjohn75.bsky.social•28 days ago

You could put Bannon into the intersection of anti-immigration and hyper-libertarianism

jocanib.bsky.social•28 days ago

Yes. But "libertarian" here only works if we're clear that right-wing libertarianism boils down to freedom for those who can hit the hardest. Which is why it fits so comfortably with conservatism and authoritarianism. And actually existing liberalism, of course.

richarddubourg.bsky.social•28 days ago

The extreme libertarianism requires rent extraction (wealth accumulation) because it is only libertarianism for the powerful. Small people have to abide by small people's rules. It is Wild West strong man politics/economics, as @terikanefield.bsky.social has described it. Dictators.

doombook.bsky.social•28 days ago

Vance and Trump should be switched. Trump doesn’t have ideology, which the left circle assumes; Vance does

gavin.whyqd.com•28 days ago

Speaking as a liberal who grew up during Apartheid, & was the only Jew in a large state school filled with many Musks, one thing most struggle to comprehend is how much they hate. That scale of hatred also requires obsessive stupidity & utter corruption. Everything follows from these traits.

tensegrityfan.bsky.social•28 days ago

https://bsky.app/profile/mrhenrymorris.bsky.social/post/3ljk7q73das2u

anamsanchezarce.bsky.social•28 days ago

This made me laugh, thank you!

18thcenturyboy.bsky.social•28 days ago

Vance and Musk are Yarvinists.
So there is some intellectual framework to their actions, however misguided.

blairwilliams26.bsky.social•28 days ago

Misogyny needs to exist somewhere in this Venn diagram.

theomnisis.bsky.social•28 days ago

and a large portion of nepotism

sarabuschova.bsky.social•28 days ago

That’s v. On point !

execrable.bsky.social•28 days ago

"Non-interventionism" is missing from it.

ihavenodsinmyname.bsky.social•28 days ago

Surprised to see Vance outside of the libertarian sector. What's the rationale there?

stevewelling.bsky.social•28 days ago

where does Bannon sit?

amhoward.bsky.social•28 days ago

probably in that empty intersection - he doesn't seem *that* interested in state looting.

mattroser.bsky.social•28 days ago

This suggests that Vance and Musk might at some point try to pull Trump in their direction, like sons vying for their Father's love and attention, which is a dynamic that Trump has experience with.

richarddubourg.bsky.social•29 days ago

I think the difficulty in dealing with counterfactuals is also relevant. It makes it easy for people to explain away negative trends as nothing to do with policy choices they've made.

morgenrothedgar.bsky.social•28 days ago

1. They don't care whether it is consistent
2. All that matters is to fill their pockets with as much as possible for as long as possible

mattelliott85.bsky.social•28 days ago

C) yes but it will be a liberal's fault

susanseekshope.bsky.social•28 days ago

What’s the betting they threatened the tech bosses somehow?

susanseekshope.bsky.social•28 days ago

Will they try to move on to Europe to do the same thing?

susanseekshope.bsky.social•28 days ago

The Ukraine and other issue may be a smokescreen for their mauling of the American state.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•28 days ago

There's a 'techno-utopianism' about it too, which contradicts the minimal statism of the libertarianism. Belief in radical improvement in operation of the state by application of AI, data science. Rolling out as chaotic dysfunction thus far.

tonybarrett.bsky.social•28 days ago

Also, Effective Altruism/Will MacAskill-influenced longtermism (that perhaps unintentionally but reflexively discounts current lives). From the authors of Character Limit:

https://watchcats.substack.com/p/kate-conger-and-ryan-mac-moving-fast?utm_source=post-banner&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=posts-open-in-app&triedRedirect=true

https://bsky.app/profile/tonybarrett.bsky.social/post/3lja5ut6pq22w

domw.bsky.social•28 days ago

It’s also a very nationalistic form of libertarianism. High taxes on imports, lower taxes on (high) income. No aid for foreign countries, but we quite the look of Greenland, Canada and the Panama Canal.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•28 days ago

Yep - Jonathan highlighted that as a separate contradictory strain of thinking

jdportes.bsky.social•28 days ago

I think that describes say some of Streeting's approach to NHS - arguably naive but well intentioned.

I don't think Musk gives a flying f*** about improving Medicaid or air traffic control...

nicktheinventor.bsky.social•28 days ago

Given that he is also into depopulation, who says he cares at all about wider “prosperity” - only the prosperity of the superhuman tech overlords.

All others: as ants.

jaksays.bsky.social•28 days ago

Musk doesn't for one minute believe any of his tech claims

He is dumb, but not dumb enough to not realise that everything he promises he fails to deliver

hpiandycowper.bsky.social•28 days ago

Can’t recommend enough the work of @jessrmorley.bsky.social on what AI can and cannot do in healthcare. Highly reality-based: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sR-jxUmxzKI

jdportes.bsky.social•28 days ago

Thanks

nearlytoolate.bsky.social•28 days ago

Mostly b I think. Possibly most close to Russian economy idea…maybe explains why he admires Putin so much

petermiles.bsky.social•28 days ago

📌

kiersturmer.bsky.social•28 days ago

well intentioned??

sandraexitbrexit.bsky.social•28 days ago

What happens when a big passenger plane goes down? I worry because my son’s girlfriend is a flight attendant and flies to America a lot.

linguafrancis.bsky.social•28 days ago

I think there’s a decent chance that attempting to run a country on AI will lead to the bursting of the AI bubble.

susanseekshope.bsky.social•28 days ago

… technodystopia

alarcos.bsky.social•28 days ago

I am not sure whether they actually 'believe' in AI, or whether they believe AI is the ideal 'black box' that others will accept as such while they control how it actually works.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•28 days ago

Adjacent to this is the crypto political movement, which hasn't got much purchase on policy yet, beyond the talk of the strategic crypto reserve.

jdportes.bsky.social•28 days ago

I regard that as part of the "looting the state" agenda..

t0nyyates.bsky.social•28 days ago

If they do do the strategic reserve it will be a massive transfer from the state, so it would have that effect, but those at the centre of that movement are very self conscious about the movement and the vision for the state.

williamcb.bsky.social•28 days ago

There’s an idea in Habermas, that to qualify as an ideology the scheme of ideas has to promise to make things better. But here that crucial bit is missing and, like a lot of adverts, we are invited to fill in the gap ourselves - with libertarianism, white supremacy, techno, whatever.

daveacoley.bsky.social•28 days ago

A less sophisticated version of Thatcher.

nodpisigma.bsky.social•28 days ago

Back in the day, tech was thoroughly tested before it was rolled out. None of this prototyping and fix it on the fly when it inevitably breaks.

judah-grunstein.bsky.social•28 days ago

I think you can't separate it from a hierarchical thinking, with them at the top, that most closely resembles medieval feudalism and colonialism. That may not be a theory of economics, but it is the social construct in which and for which their ideal economy functions.

holgernehring.bsky.social•28 days ago

Agree. Quinn Slobodian has written about these connections. His forthcoming book Hayek's bastards is going to be interesting.

mcduff.bsky.social•28 days ago

We can just call it fascism

theangelofhistory.bsky.social•29 days ago

The personal corruption aspect is huge: it’s possible that even though Trump doesn’t like the optics of a falling stock market, he sees it as a positive opportunity for him and his confederates to buy up assets cheap.

garlicneo.bsky.social•26 days ago

Down 46% yesterday.

The destruction of the Tesla brand is monumental.

https://bsky.app/profile/garlicneo.bsky.social/post/3ljpbzmegfk2k

climatenick.bsky.social•28 days ago

It will collapse because it won’t achieve any of its goals. I’m sure we’ll get “the deep state thwarted our efforts” etc. in 4 years’ time.

theseouldan.bsky.social•28 days ago

Don't believe for one minute that Musk is a libertarian in any way. Just doesn't want rules to apply to him

noahgift.bsky.social•29 days ago

simplify: [Musk] - traditional male cult leader with ZERO ideology beyond:

A. I am God/Genius
B. I want a Harem
C. Give me all property

Examples: Keith Renier, Carlos Carlos Castaneda, Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, etc. (many of these folks read Ayn Rand, fyi).

bettinastruff.bsky.social•28 days ago

How much of it is driven by Project Russia, I wonder?

https://washingtonspectator.org/project-russia-reveals-putins-playbook/?ref=america2.news

cris143.bsky.social•28 days ago

You forgot Curtis Yarvin…

jimob1.bsky.social•28 days ago

As you say who knows? But how about strongman leaders who respond to the urges of vengeful nihilists who have lost faith and hope in 'grand narratives', institutions, progress, cooperation etc. Happy wednesday! 😄

onlyoneplanet.bsky.social•28 days ago

Yes the Rand thing isn’t being talked about enough right now. Fundamental ideology to understand what’s happening - it’s not just Musk.

snowhitsky.bsky.social•28 days ago

Why do they need a reason other than they can? The lack of any consequence emboldens most people to act selfishly but sociopaths have no such barriers in place in the first place. Only the rule of law keeps them in line. If that fails then it's down to brute force be it a mob or murder.

pwc50.bsky.social•28 days ago

For Trump & Musk motivations are simply about power & money

For close, not-so-dim followers, it’s what they can gain & secure from the chaos

The useful idiots in his govt are just that & help as media distractions

For elected reps, it’s fear

For the cult, their prospects are far more uncertain…

sanakism.bsky.social•28 days ago

The motivation of "power & money" isn't limited just to Trump & Musk. Fascism in general is a two-faced ideology: there's the ideology as told to the supporters, which is rooted in scapegoating & hate as cynical motivators - then there's the actual motivations of the leaders, which are just: power.

rabboyce.bsky.social•28 days ago

I'd argue the core of it all is a belief in plutocracy based on the assumption that if you are incredibly wealthy then you 'know what's best' and should be exempt from the same constraints that apply to those who are not. From that flows a disdain for democracy, a taste for populism and nationalism.

rabboyce.bsky.social•28 days ago

Anti-democratic - Why should we respect the wishes of the masses?
Populism - We need workers to make and buy our products and it's best if they are angry about someone else and not us!
Nationalism - Why should we share our prosperity with others or be bound by the rules of others?

stevewotton.bsky.social•28 days ago

The US libertarians are a farce. What is the point of them? If they haven’t just acquiesced with Trumpism (because the Dems are so terrible?!) then they have just equivocated and sat on the fence claiming both are as bad as each other and refused to make a choice (in a purely binary system).

jrlclarke.bsky.social•28 days ago

I’ve been saying the Ayn Rand thing for awhile; I think Musk and associates are trying to act out the endpoint of Atlas Shrugs.

susanseekshope.bsky.social•28 days ago

and elitism

suebeesley.bsky.social•29 days ago

How about:
a) I want to be the richest person that ever lived (Musk)
b) I want to be on telly all the time (Trump)
c) I just want these guys to let me hang out with them (Vance)

joemuggs.bsky.social•28 days ago

Also

d) I want to hurt people who don’t bend the knee to me (all of them)

gdabass.bsky.social•29 days ago

It's about finding a buzz word ie Brexit, woke etc they don't mean anything but the more these words are repeated they become words used to attack the other 😔😡

iamhurst.bsky.social•28 days ago

Musk genuinely thinks he is THE pivot figure in all of human history because of the following

Earthbound Species > MUSK < Interplanetary Species

He's interested in being remembered in 500 years as transformational. Which is far more dangerous than Trump

mrjolly.bsky.social•28 days ago

I think there’s a drive in tech leaders to achieve immortality either through a transfer of conciouness or as you say, being a pivot figure - a conquer of new worlds or just richest bastard ever

guyharvey70.bsky.social•28 days ago

It makes more sense viewed as a twenty first century feudal economy focused around enriching and empowering billionaire 'lords'.

ahorrox.bsky.social•28 days ago

Seems to relegate the element of hard core racism to an afterthought, rather than a key component.

jdportes.bsky.social•28 days ago

There's a divide there too between straightforward white nationalism and the "race science" guys.. ( @anandmenon.bsky.social a d I wrote about this earlier!)

athanklesstask.bsky.social•28 days ago

It'd be a stretch to suggest they subscribe to traditional economic theory, even Libertarianism, it's more about using disparate mechanisms for their own perceived benefit from a populist POV.

Except the US has a captured population convinced extreme wealth convergence is a good thing.

chiniquy33.bsky.social•29 days ago

Donald Trump, the Russian Stooge (Ass-et)
Trump has more love and respect for Putin, than he does for American government workers or American and European political leaders.
https://chiniquy.wordpress.com/2023/06/09/is-donald-trump-a-russian-assets/

leslieehrlich.bsky.social•28 days ago

📌

cupsall.bsky.social•28 days ago

The bit missing is that contradiction between Rand and the workerist subsidies and protections for US (white, male) jobs. Each undermines the other. One representing donors and the other voters.

james-bg.bsky.social•28 days ago

There's also a big element of techno-optimism, especially around nuclear (and solar in Musk's case). It also ties in with the libertarianism and anti-immigration push, as they use it to justify one last big splurge on fossil fuels and building big walls to deal with the climate fallout.

climatenick.bsky.social•28 days ago

Not to mention $500 billion on AI infrastructure

davidjwbailey.bsky.social•28 days ago

In theoretical terms they are a bit closer to Schumpeter than Rand or Hayek.

davidrafferty.bsky.social•28 days ago

In theoretical terms I think they’re closer to Goering.

madman2.bsky.social•28 days ago

where does Aleksandr Dugin fit into this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

kevinanthony.bsky.social•29 days ago

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