Other countries are fully targeting US academics with social media ads now, basically of the form "we still have inclusive liberal democracy and academic freedom here"
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My kid started applying to schools outside the US on November 6. They (and my tuition, room,board and incidental dollars) will be studying in NB next fall.
True. On the other hand, I had a bad and very Trumpian experience at the particular university featured in this ad. Tenure at Finnish universities is very insecure.
Listen you academic US women: Finland is, yes, pretty cold *sometimes* but all the Scandinavian countries are like a socially aware left leaning person's paradise compared to most other places in the world. If I was young now, I'd be learning Danish or Finnish. Sweden's weird atm but it'll pass!
Sorry, very little need for lawyers. The bureaucracy is quite light and can sort out most problems without.
But don't worry. The market for lawyers in US is booming.
Unfortunately the response from 1/2 of the American populace will be, "Great, get those egghead elites out of America!"
This will be said between bites of Freedom Fries.
wow so people are free to promote rioting, terrorism and October 7th there?
or does it depend on the doers and target? like, do neo-Nazis and KKK people get to do the same stuff? can they harass black people freely? or does it have to be just Jews?
Khalil's stuff:
There’s delicious irony in that ad specifically because the current Finnish government is so hostile to immigration they’ve impacted university enrollment. It hasn’t stopped them either!
Realized this sounded like me trying to be a buzzkill, I’m actually an immigrant in Finland who’s been fucked over by those policy changes so I’m just making sure Orpo and Purra don’t get off the hook just because they’re not, say, black bagging immigrants and shipping them to Guantanamo.
Actually, we want everyone! Not just the scientists, but healthcare professionals, manual labourers, specialists, entrepreneurs... we have a shortage of labour. 🇫🇮
Finnish is a bit hard, but there is a short cut - we are a bilingual country and our second language, Swedish, is much easier for English speakers to learn. Also, we all speak English too.
Neat! If I was able to get to intermediate level in Japanese I think I could handle Finnish. I know lots of Scandinavian people speak English better than many native speakers in USA do but I think people should learn the language of the country they live in
Yes. My worst fear for mine has come true. Trying to minimize the truth while keeping her positive has been my only focus for weeks. At her age so few are informed or engaged . But that still doesn’t make feel any better.
Come and study in Europe🇪🇺, the continent where we still have moral standards, respect one another, offer intellectual challenges and where your future looks bright.
My wife drove a neighbor, a dual Swedish-US citizen, to the Swedish embassy for some paperwork. While there, the embassy personnel, unsolicited, gave my wife a bunch of materials on the benefits of emigrating to Sweden.
I’m in Taiwan now but would love to be able to consider emigrating to an EU country. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible if you’re not dual and don’t have a high-powered career.
Yes, we had very high vaccine uptake (especially in vulnurable groups/elderly which had virtually all vaccinated). Also we did vaccination in prio order, per risk/age group. As I am middle age, I had to wait abt 4-5 months, which I was perfectly fine with since my dad was among the first.
Hopefully, this is an extinction burst in the U.S. Hopefully, this will all end up being the catalyst that finally pushes the U.S. to become a progressive first-world country most of us dream of it being.
Until the last good person vanishes, there is still hope.
That is what I actually suspect will happen. I definitely don’t think this will lead to any sort of long term brain drain. The backlash against MAGA is already here. People are still pissed.
The UMass graduate school of biomedical sciences in worcester just rescinded all PhD offers. They are not the only ones. This is not doomerism. This is reality.
And this brain-drain will come not just from intelligent and talented people fleeing this country to study and work in other more liberal, diverse, sane countries... but by a massive drop in the number of intelligent and talented people coming HERE from other countries as immigrants and workers.
My person is just staying on in the UK and converting her masters to an MB/PhD in pediatric cancer research. But I’m sure the US won’t need excellent patient facing pediatric cancer researchers. I mean, we’ve got Vitamin A and Cod Liver Oil, so our kids should be all set.
There is a quiet brain drain going on in the USA right now. It’s the first time in my life where people are threatening to move abroad and are following through on it. I’ve seen it in my personal life.
If would happily give up a ridiculously high salary if I knew everyone around me would have health care, a comfortable place to live, and the right to be who they are without fear.
U of Helsinki has a great international collegium for short term posts, but both it and Finland in general are extremely problematic for long term career security and advancement for foreigners.
Well, since you've got no pic, bio, references, and practically no followers, I guess I will have to assume your argument free assertion with zero supporting data is 100% true!
✋ I am very open to moving my program to Europe. DM if your department needs an awesome chemist. I published the first mechanism of Nobel-prize-winning "click" reaction and discovered a new allotrope of carbon.
So I’m from the UK. Nerd mate of mine is offered a company transfer to Canada. But CIC…
“We have programmers, eh. It’s not gonna be easy.”
“Damn.”
“Sorry. By the way, what does your wife do?”
“Senior mental health nurse.”
“…REALLY?”
“Er… yes?”
…forget the visa application.
The whole family were INVITED by the mayor’s office of Victoria,BC to become citizens.
So double the UK salary, free health insurance until citizenship, better job, childcare and school places, relocation assistance…and an entire city gov having your back.
Not bad,eh.
They are. Kids settled right in, Max went native (he had the beard and liked plaid anyway), and Van loves the career upgrade and community - joined a theatre group.
(And with the better life balance, even with the kids, she has TIME for that - she's not permanently on-call to cover shortage shifts)
Well, they (we) should have done this when Brexit happened already. And the main point: the EU should invest billions to this, open up new research centres etc. Now it's single unis tinkering here & there. There should be more coordination and concrete measures - backed by a serious amount of money.
oh in a way, we did, just accidentally. a ton of EU scientists who were working at top UK research institutes and universities had to relocate back to their home countries after brexit.
i personally know a top quantum optics researcher who was working at cambridge - he's back in germany now.
Yes, I was in the UK at the time too. And quite vividly remember the heavy rain on the day of the referendum (probably decided the thing!). But: the EU did nada. That's my point. They should have actively, concretely recruited people from the UK. There's history at stake!
Trump has actually opened the flood gates for the American intelligentsia to be recruited by every foreign country. China will most problably grab them. Russia has no money to pay for them.
Oh yeah, nations are salivating at the opportunities of a US’ brain drain… come to Australia!
Best place to be to survive WW3
Distance, surrounded by a huge moat, grow our own food, generate our own power, stable democracy, strong military, cutting edge research & technology plus plenty of space
although we in Australia will be having a federal election before 22nd May. I suggest u wait till we know who wins. If the current govt Wins. Id give it the go ahead but the alternate trump wannabe RWNJ might not suit u.
True. France's minister for higher education and research urged in his letter to the research institutions to consider welcoming scientists abandoning the United States. "Many well-known researchers are already questioning their future in the United States," he wrote.
Pick Australia
Australia has poached many Irish nurses
There's a reason
Great weather
Universal Healthcare
Stable Society
Stable Governments
Amazing nature
Great lifestyle
It's per month. It's probably given like that because the annual vacation money is not included in the 4200€ so the actual yearly salary is somewhat higher than 4200*12€.
Yeah, depends on the exact terms your union has negotiated and years of service, but yearly salary is roughly 12.3-13x monthly. And of course all the benefits come on top of that.
4200€/month is decent money even in Helsinki. More than I (PhD & MSc engineer, but in policy) make currently.
Don’t know the specifics but the pay seems pretty decent. And in comparisons, it needs to be remembered that many things people in the U.S. have to pay for are free or cheap in the Nordics. The deal is especially great for parents who want to work instead of staying at home.
Your vacation is included separately? This conversation is fascinating. My benefits are not included in my salary but vacation/sick time is figured in.
There's quite a bit of mandatory paid vacation, and most employment contracts (maybe all? IDK) specify a special "vacation money" paid once a year. IIRC for me it's about 50% of the monthly salary.
There can also be other benefits like mobile phone and connection, car allowance, etc.
Yes, a good rule of thumb in Finland is to take whatever number is advertised, multiply it by 12.5, and this is a good approximation of your annual salary before taxes etc.
4200€/month before taxes should translate to something like ≈ 3000€/month money on your bank account after all kinds of taxes and mandatory insurance fees that the employer will automatically deduct, and once a year a happy surprise of ≈ 1500€ extra
In almost all of Europe salaries are always given as monthly.
I don't even know what my annual salary is (obviously I could easily calculate it, but it is not a number I have at the ready, because it never comes up).
The UK’s Brexit shift makes it a tougher sell to attract US talent. With a shared language and EU access, Ireland has a golden opportunity to draw in skilled professionals looking for a new home!
Finland has the best education system in the world. Learning Finnish is the major problem but they probably write up papers in English to attract more interested parties.
My daughter is a year from graduating with her bachelor's degree. She is in the Honors College at UGA with a 4.0 GPA. She was on track to go on to grad school. Now, she has no prospects. Grad schools have lost grant funding. The US will lose talented ppl.
Unfortunately, the sword is carried only on ceremonial occasions once in every few years (in case one happens to take part in the festivities). The same goes for the hat, except that one also gets to carry it around (not wear it!) when one is either an opponent or a custos in a PhD defense.
Yeah they have the best of all. Did my PhD in the NL, jury had grand old robes with fur and my two 'paranymphs' and myself had white tie (for men, my female paranymph had a formal evening dress). Not bad, but no sword! 🗡️
I don’t know what Finnish PhD ceremonies are like but if those swords are for a Battle Royale I think the lady in the front and the lady behind white gloves gut would fall first. Their guards are in the wrong position for a quick across the body draw.
french institut pasteur said to have many contacts with american researchers to come to work in france
USA is breaking its R&D
sad for them, good for us...
Going to be a massive brain drain from this country as a result of what Trump is doing. Not only college professors, but FDA scientists, NIH researchers, NASA engineers, EPA experts--I could go on and on. He's not only wrecking our country, he's making us, as a whole, dumber in the process. SMH.
Not sure about the universities, but other than that Finnish employers have shitty tendency to demand absolutely perfect Finnish even if you're likely never going to actually need Finnish at work, because "what if a coworker doesn't speak English", while English is also mandatory for all hires 🥴
There can be communication problems, sure, but they aren't unsurmountable. My 60-year-old coworker with a blue collar job can make himself understood just fine, and so does my 40-year-old coworker with a college degree. And when they can't, they say, "Anehan, can you translate?"
Especially in fields like software development, where you really can't survive without a working proficiency in English. And yet, that same attitude can be found there.
Yep. If a dev speaking only English becomes an insurmountable barrier in software development, I can pretty much guarantee the team is going to be in way deeper shit because of their lack of English skills.
Universities, especially in natural sciences tend to be very English oriented. In our uni even a lot of the teaching is in English. Usually in PhD/post-doc positions English is the only language that is required.
Yep 🙄 It is actually illegal discrimination according to Finnish law, but I don't think anyone's been even sued for it so far. Finnish racism is insidious. It's always "oh it's not me, it's the customers/owner/coworkers/someone and I'm actually kinda protecting both of us here". 🤦♂️
When you confront people about it, even as a Finn, you're always hit back with gaslighting and guilt tripping "why are you attacking me I'm on your and their side here, I'm just saving them the trouble by excluding them before there's problems" 😩
Finland takes the crown as the happiest country in the world for the seventh consecutive year. Other Nordic countries are onto something and place in the top 10
Admitted, Finland might not be IDEAL in a world with a greatly emboldened Russia with territorial expansion ambitions, but in principle I'm in agreement.
It may not be ideal, but if that's how you make your key decisions in life, better not leave home at all. Finland is pretty much the safest country on earth, also the happiest. Yes, Russia is there, but it's always been there, and they've never been nice, but Finland has.
That would provoke a pan-European war. I don't think even Putin is *that* fuckin' stupid. Now Trump, meanwhile, I'm sure he'd love a Baltic riviera all his own
Yup. My daughter is in her first year at McGill in Montreal. 🇨🇦 My son is a high school junior and not sure if he'll even apply at any US universities. For context, my husband and I have five degrees from American universities between us.
My kid is about to graduate with his double major in math and computer science. Actively applying to US grad schools for math, but we’re concerned that grant funding could affect teaching and research assistantship.
Not sure about the window for fall, but I’ve recently seen phd programs in Sweden (in other subjects) recruiting on here for applications. My understanding is that it isn’t too much more difficult to apply than here. Some places might have visa hoops to jump through
I'm an American academic who has been working overseas for nearly 30 years. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to live in a stable country where you'll still have rights.
Trump is doing to US what Stalin did to Russia: emigrate the brightest. (Stalin also killed the remaining smart ones and that's the reason why Russia is the 3rd world country today and may never climb out of there.)
You seriously think 25-30 year old scientists, doctors, historians, or sociologists who've been living for years on grad student or postdoc wages are "elites" who caused this dumpster fire?
Scandinavian populations (in the US, where there is not rational healthcare, at least) map out as higher risk for GI cancers and other alcohol-related ailments
See, I told you in a post a few minutes ago, we are going to lose our best How far we have fallen in how many days!!!! We were once the envy of the world, and now we are looking like a third world country!
At some point, I should look in to why. Sweden and Norway still require white tie for doctoral defenses (I think; I've never come across it outwith whodunnits), but in Denmark our only remnant is a silly cap for grammar school graduates.
and they should take the opportunity - academics have been fighting stupidity and misinformation since Bush the Lesser. I would cheer anyone who said "fuck this" and left.
European higher education is not too bad, but currently there is a tendency to romanticize it; like most Nordic countries, Finland‘s education budget is shrinking, salaries are relatively low & all sorts of issues around immigration are also getting worse-and, no, not „everyone speaks English“…
Finland is a one of the most egalitarian countries – and the happiest one(*). Finland is known for its high level of education, with free schools and university education, for safety, etc.
Not a bad choice.
The U. of Helsinki is among the top 1% internationally.
Honestly the first country to announce a “U.S. lawyers; we are seeking people who can litigate against the United States” is going to make out like a bandit.
There is no future in the USA for anyone who values free thought, science, and truth. What is happening right now is absolutely akin to the Cultural Revolution in China. I hope they don’t start killing people, too, but totalitarian societies have a tendency to do that.
I would definitely say College students should seek education in foreign countries. Only issue is in some areas there might be more to jump through like an MD
Hopefully, after 4 years, they'll be able to return like refugees coming back home after the war/genocide is over. Again, hopefully colleges/universities won't be bombed out husks.
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Girls hit on boys in bars.
But don't worry. The market for lawyers in US is booming.
This will be said between bites of Freedom Fries.
https://www.univ-amu.fr/en/system/files?file=2025-03/Safe%20place%20for%20Science%20-%20call%20for%20applications.pdf
or does it depend on the doers and target? like, do neo-Nazis and KKK people get to do the same stuff? can they harass black people freely? or does it have to be just Jews?
Khalil's stuff:
There will be a whole crop of new US graduates trying to find jobs in a weak economy.
which I failed. I will wonder how she is, in her brilliant self, for the rest of my life.
Until the last good person vanishes, there is still hope.
Unfortunately, it will have to play out a little longer and get worse before it gets better. But people are indeed waking up and ready to fight. 💙
We’re living through sad times indeed…
Salaries for professors are significantly lower for professors in Scandinavian countries, but child care and health care are almost free!
Don't get me wrong Norway is great and beautiful. But be warned it is largely very North.
Canada is looking for Healthcare professionals.
So I’m from the UK. Nerd mate of mine is offered a company transfer to Canada. But CIC…
“We have programmers, eh. It’s not gonna be easy.”
“Damn.”
“Sorry. By the way, what does your wife do?”
“Senior mental health nurse.”
“…REALLY?”
“Er… yes?”
Then basically this GIF happened…
🧵⤵️
The whole family were INVITED by the mayor’s office of Victoria,BC to become citizens.
So double the UK salary, free health insurance until citizenship, better job, childcare and school places, relocation assistance…and an entire city gov having your back.
Not bad,eh.
(And with the better life balance, even with the kids, she has TIME for that - she's not permanently on-call to cover shortage shifts)
https://bsky.app/profile/tuomaspernu.bsky.social/post/3lkbzld3k2k2b
i personally know a top quantum optics researcher who was working at cambridge - he's back in germany now.
https://bsky.app/profile/tuomaspernu.bsky.social/post/3lkdjsusurc2n
Best place to be to survive WW3
Distance, surrounded by a huge moat, grow our own food, generate our own power, stable democracy, strong military, cutting edge research & technology plus plenty of space
Source: Le Monde in English
https://www.uef.fi/en/open-positions
Australia has poached many Irish nurses
There's a reason
Great weather
Universal Healthcare
Stable Society
Stable Governments
Amazing nature
Great lifestyle
Welcome!
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/about-us/careers/academic-careers
4200€/month is decent money even in Helsinki. More than I (PhD & MSc engineer, but in policy) make currently.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Nordic_Theory_of_Everything.html?id=ruKxDwAAQBAJ
There can also be other benefits like mobile phone and connection, car allowance, etc.
I don't even know what my annual salary is (obviously I could easily calculate it, but it is not a number I have at the ready, because it never comes up).
In fact, they can eventually make up some of the economic damage US is causing by investing in innovation & brain power.
https://www.aalto.fi/en/department-of-computer-science/assistant-professor-positions
https://www.chalmers.se/en/about-chalmers/work-with-us/vacancies/
USA is breaking its R&D
sad for them, good for us...
There can be communication problems, sure, but they aren't unsurmountable. My 60-year-old coworker with a blue collar job can make himself understood just fine, and so does my 40-year-old coworker with a college degree. And when they can't, they say, "Anehan, can you translate?"
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Nordic_Theory_of_Everything.html?id=ruKxDwAAQBAJ
https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptionalism-what-explains-why-the-nordic-countries-are-constantly-among-the-happiest-in-the-world/?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAA-CLxotj2hoavOObMH1b-FfJpy4Uv&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9ZXOue6IjAMVIoCDBx1xfBVOEAAYASAAEgL2MvD_BwE
They also invented the Molotov cocktail
It's possible my comment may have had some slight facetiousness...
The Brain Drain into the US is now in reverse.
that's great
there was no Malort in the trashcan but there WAS Fernet Branca so I did the ethical, responsible thing and I drank it
Reduce! Reuse! Recycle!
why hello there
It might be different elsewhere
But it's not compulsory.
See: Minnisota and nearby
which doesn't sync with the immiscible, green imbidements
*spelt wrong, on purpose, so don't @ me
Anyway, this was an early mapping thing in undergrad, m/b out of date...
Back in the early 2000s when people asked me to describe Finland, I told them to look at the tracklist of Sentenced’s “The Cold White Light” 😇
I mostly think about populations
shoot me, it's reflexive
No snakes, though! As far as I'm aware; I don't have a PhD.
At some point, I should look in to why. Sweden and Norway still require white tie for doctoral defenses (I think; I've never come across it outwith whodunnits), but in Denmark our only remnant is a silly cap for grammar school graduates.
It was getting bad in higher ed before Trump was reelected and is so much worse now.
We had a speaker brought in from the business world refer to our students as “feed stock”
Not a bad choice.
The U. of Helsinki is among the top 1% internationally.
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/about-us/careers/academic-careers
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2024-03-20/why-finland-is-the-worlds-happiest-country