I don’t really give a shit how much of a conservative this makes me sound like, but the United States has suffered an existential collapse in the civic virtue of our citizens necessary to sustain a liberal democracy.
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I think you’re right. The right has turned vice into virtue. Meanwhile, many left leaning people conduct themselves in a virtuous way that would have been praised in the past. Now it is derided as virtue signaling.
To be fair, we are finding out that there are a lot of Dem politicians, corporations, large legal firms and universities that were only virtue signaling all along.
The problem is that we never really had the civic values that would have prevented this, and it scares me that people think getting back to some kind of "normal" that enabled this is what we should be aiming for.
Dude! The country has suffered an epic collapse in leadership. Good people doing good work...what happened to that? Oh yea, grift, money, pseudo fame. Cool!
I didn't know that believing in civic virtue, and the need for it in order to sustain a liberal democracy, were conservative values. I'm a lifelong liberal and always believed that, too. But agree with your conclusion.
I think it's actually worse than that. Americans literally don't know the meaning of the words "civic" or "citizen" and certainly don't know anything at all about "civic virtue"
True, and I blame conservatives. Greed is good, corporations owe nothing to anyone other than their shareholders, the humanities are useless, media consolidation and other monopolies are the natural result of market forces, etc., are all concepts which have led to the collapse of civic virtue.
I don't know when it started, but people just seem so weirdly afraid of others now? Maybe its the outcome of the phone, head always down in our own bubble, but the lack of basic interaction has gotten v weird. And the local news. Watching it you'd think your basic CA suburb is a lawless hellscape.
I don't think you can say this of ALL citizens. Not even an actual majority. What we have is too much craven belief that a dictator didn't really mean what he said he would do. Too much gullibility in the face of obvious false propaganda.
I would argue they're not the only ones. For the most part the left-of-center crowd is more responsible with the idealism that America purportedly represents with regards to human rights; however, if they can't stand up to genocide, then there's a deep reckoning needed.
I think a lot of us are complacent, and a handful who are more engaged and aware are frustrated by limited choices. I was never a fan of the Biden admin's Palestine policy, but i voted for Dems in 24 because the alternative was much worse. I see how party leaders felt trapped by interest groups.
I am in the same category. I know Trump is more vicious and voted accordingly, but condemnation of "our candidate" should have been widespread and on their doorstep. It may have created change. If we let them do it, the worst people will point at the precedent we set to do even more atrocities.
That's a fair criticism, but by the same token, the far-left is also a problem. The far-left spreads unnecessary distrust of American institutions, which helps create the kind of low-trust society that people like Trump tend to thrive on.
The far-left also paints an overly negative picture of US history, refuses to acknowledge the progress the US has made, refuses to engage in realistic comparisons, and has really ridiculous ideas about revolution and what not. None of this is conducive to a healthy civic culture or high trust.
Many of the far-left are even in favor of or ambiguous towards Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which has a genocidal intent, and that makes it impossible to take seriously the idea that they care about Palestinians for human rights reasons.
I would respond to you, but you have a strange fixation and vendetta against people who give an iota of moral clarity to *your* politics. The distrust comes from actual breaches of trust where Democrats have sided with right-wingers to make war, clear bankers of sinking the economy, and lying to us.
doesn’t make you sound like a conservative at all. Makes you sound like a patriot, which we on the left should never have let conservatives claim that word for themselves.
Is it only conservative to have principles? I agree with you exactly, that this country has suffered an existential collapse in civic virtue. I am in constant disbelief.
It’s actually a bit insulting for u to suggest that civic virtue is only a conservative trait. I have seen zero civic virtue from the GOP in decades. Is this satire?
I think the point where he says it makes me sound like a conservative is actually correct though because conservatives were giving lip service to the idea that this is what they believed, even though they were just lying.
The irony is that anyone who doesn’t wish to see our nation remade as kleptocracy is now by definition a conservative. We are fighters for the old guard.
The absolute worst response is to put governance into the hands of an avaricious, power-hungry, evil few, GOP-aligned, wracked by continually demonstrably lower levels of civic virtue.
no man. we have a ruling class that make all decisions of any great importance, both domestically and abroad.
you are gesturing to a majority of support and encouragement from the country as whole that just does not exist.
might be because half of us can't read at a collegiate level and don't have the ability to understand why that might be problematic vis-à-vis actually understanding grown-up, complicated shit like, oh, idk, civics maybe
When Republicans gerrymander and suppress the vote in countless other ways, we lose the power to remove the bad ones, they become unaccountable and immoral.
IMO, that’s hollow gibberish. The “conservatives” I know personally, everyone of them ignored the highjacking of the GOP. To this day, I know conservatives who have never said a positive word about Biden or Obama & can’t bring themselves to condemn any action by Putin. Conservatives are a myth/hoax.
Seriously. The GOP base hasn’t been “conservative” in forever, if they ever were. Edmund Burke ain’t on Fox. But the party benefits from the term’s connotations of responsibility, prudence, realism, etc. By equivocation, those personal virtues get splashed on a mob of cranks, nihilists, & monsters.
Depend on what type of conservative you want to be - this is exactly how a Burkean conservative would see things. What we're seeing in reality is what I would call American conservatism - hyper xenophobia and racism used as a cover for self-serving greed and corruption.
Existential Collapse in Civic Virtue = Anti-Woke. e.g. I'm all about ME. unwilling to learn different perspectives, unwilling to even try to understand things from someone else's POV, unwilling to learn from (at times) unpleasant history. If anything, I think you are making a WOKE liberal point.
The fly in your ointment is that only self proclaimed “conservatives” are the ones who never learned, or learned and don’t give a damn, about civic virtue.
It's only "conservative" if it's a dog-whistle reference to racial integration, or women's suffrage, or some other way that inclusivity has allegedly harmed civic virtue.
I think the same has happened in Europe. Social media has rotted the brains of right wingers and a certain swath of left wingers, and convinced them not just that democracy is not worth keeping, but also that virtue, sincerity and beliefs that the world could be made better are 'cringe' and 'weak'.
Disinformation and propaganda on social media is a factor but not the whole thing. People will need to educate themselves to deal with the effects of so much information and opinions at their fingertips. This will be a messy process
With a large swath of the populace believing that, upholding a democracy is a difficult task, and I'd be lying if I said I knew a way out of this mess, besides forcing media literacy classes in schools and so on.
One thing is I think we can support leaders that have a moral center. I'm not an educator but it seems to me through her Instagram and public appearances, AOC is doing more than public speaking--she's teaching.
BUt yeah, when I see the current far right Dutch cabinet act not just incompetently, but without any virtue or honor (never mind the inhumane fascists running the US), it is hard to deny that virtue is in a dying state.
Maybe. I've had a vigorous internal struggle between my inner Popper and Wittgenstein for my adult life. Many days I think virtue is a language game, but sometimes I remember that Wittgenstein was by all standards a virtuous person while also saying that thereover we must pass in silence.
I don't know. I'd say yes. But there in lies the problem. If people can communicate better. And people manipulate the fuck out of each other. And people are still massively susceptible to manipulation. Yeah, you still come out with there being more manipulation/manipulated people.
Population totals of course rise. So it's a given that at any moment there are just more people than before. Add in social media/entertainment/news effects? And yeah, you end up with things being worse.
One of the most depressing things about living in the US is how uncommon it is to find sincerity and authenticity even among people in day to day life. The general sense of "wholesomeness" and genuine vulnerability seems frowned upon and I really think it's from social media.
Where was this moral panic when democracy was being hollowed out by voter suppression, corruption, or corporate capture? Don’t preach civic values if you only apply them selectively.
I don’t really give a shit how much of a CITIZEN this makes me sound like, but the United States has suffered an existential collapse in the civic virtue of REPUBLICAN voters necessary to sustain a liberal democracy.
This is the opposite of sounding conservative though. Impossible to use the phrase "civic virtue" and sound like a conservative. That's never been their thing, that's our thing.
@radiofreetom.bsky.social said this frequently a while back. I used to think we could legislate our way out of this, but I finally get what he means. He was right.
Well, this is the project of propaganda fed to us for years that we are consumers not citizens. Every corporation you can name brainwashes us with this message 24/7. All media messaging directs us to be passive and consume.
How the fuck do you figure that makes you sound like a conservative? It is the conservative element that are responsible for and the resulting virtueless citizens.
It’s not civic virtue. Democracy is made of infrastructure and labor and rules and experts. All of those things have been under attack for years. It is not just some lofty abstract idea. It’s a system that requires real resources.
This super liberal does not disagree. We have responsibilities in addition to rights. It is our responsibility to understand the basic premises of our citizenship and why character in an elected leader matters.
Been coming on for a while, but do you really thing civic virtue is only a conservative ideal? Not sure whether you are reacting to some posts or what, but did someone confuse "liberal" with "libertine" somewhere along the line?
It can all be tied to a lack of empathy, either by trauma or nurture. This who can not grasp how their fellow citizen is feeling are bound to care only about themselves and the suffering, trauma and abuse of others means nothing to them.
You can have a democracy where people like knowing about politics and seek it out above their obligations or you can have a time bomb, and this time bomb has just exploded
Perhaps, but the question is why? It is not because of the inherent traits of the citizenry, but because trends forced upon them by economic and political power made it so.
Unfortunately, talking about virtue is now bad and cringe (in the eyes of cynical conservatives and the irony poisoned, respectively), but I agree. Earnest and caring about things are good. Virtue is good.
Wanna hold a meeting? I mean, I don't know what else to do. We've crossed the Rubicon here. We have to build community. I like your posts, but there has to be more, right?
I'm not this person, but I've been talking about the need to remoralize politics as an antidote to technocratic governance that does not veer into reaction or revolution. Not sure if this is what you mean by virtue, though.
The scary thing is all we would have to do is talk about how much we love America and what makes us special. We are the greatest nation because of how we have helped shape and lead the world. JFK, Reagan, Obama language, etc.
I've been thinking about your work among others while introducing my son to a version of American civic nationalism. Feels bad to be in this place 60 years after the dream speech, but on the other hand it sure helps to have a tradition with stuff like the dream speech.
In the same vein, promoting religiosity (not the scoldy kind, but the taking care of your neighbor, we all have inherent dignity, be responsible kind) needs to be promoted on the left as well. For me, knowing God loves me and expects me to love others is a powerful motivator.
I believe Buddhism has a lot to give here, without all of the awful baggage that Christianity has. at its core, Buddhism is an empathy engine that is flexible enough to adapt to nearly any culture.
There has never been a better time in my life for the left to start waving the flag, attacking the internet and social media, and basing their appeal around civic virtues.
Bullshit is vulnerably to earnestness. Jed Bartlet’s corny ass would KILL in this environment.
Absolutely. In other times, the right's obsession with patriotism and flag-waving (and certain bad songs, ahem) is totally cringe, but in times like these, sincerity is unifying. @anandwrites.bsky.social has also written on these themes. https://bsky.app/profile/dbonowitz.bsky.social/post/3lmhtge4ruk2l
i don't think that's up to us anymore, it's up to the rest of the world to decide if they can trust or depend on the US, and I don't think they're gonna in our lifetimes at least
Reality must intrude unambiguously. We praise civic virtue, the rule of law, basic decency not because it's cool or en vogue but because its what makes things work and the absence makes things worse.
That implies that things get horribly bad enough to make reality intrude, and there were sizable amounts of ppl in the post confederacy states and post WW2 Germany who never accepted reality even after catastrophic loss
Maybe this isn't what OP meant, but I view part of this as more than just changing MAGA.
This is a problem with the kids, too. And they're both potentially easier to reach, and probably more important in the long run. And a *lot* of them are lost right now.
That's an INDIVIDUAL task that must be taken on by ALL for the good of the whole.. and people being rewarded for being a selfish azzhole has made that a rarity
That ship has sailed. Perhaps the next president will be a decent human being. But by 4 years later, the average voter won't remember any of this, just like they had forgotten Jan. 6th, the Muslim ban, yadda yadda by 2022.
Tbh I think people will still be talking about this administration 50 years from now, and most of them will disavow ever having been silent or complicit in it
Members of the GOP now fears that Turmp economic wonkery will kill the party. We might see one or more partys coming in to the House and senate if things goes relly upside down.
I remember reading something about Italians saying that they’re parents/grandparents were against Mussolini. But since pretty much everyone was saying it, that meant those who were lying were ashamed of having that in their lineage. Perhaps we’ll see something similar with Trump
I mean for a more recent example... Pretty unusual now in the UK to find anyone who will mount a full defense of Brexit. You'll find some who say it was a good idea done badly. The change had to wait for the heat to go out of it though.
I’ve been considering a program in our schools to teach children what is special about our country, democracy, and the rule of law. Without that education in my childhood, I think I too would be cynical while practicing selfish and short term thinking.
The GOP/MAGA/Trump are gutting education at fed level on their march to destroying democracy & installing their Putinesque-style authoritarian state. The will coerce the same at the state/local level. IMO education of our childhoods paved road to this moment. Trump will teach fealty to him & fear
Nah, we're not about to imply America EVER had morals - and I include every single complicit citizen in that. A country built on chattel slavery doesn't get to talk about losing a moral backbone. I bet most of yal don't even mask in this thread ffs. Be fucking for real.
too many people read Ben Franklin say “a republic, if you can keep it” and said to themselves and everyone around them, “wow, I’m glad that’s not my job!”
It's funny how the conservatives complaining about moral relativism were completely right about it leading to societal decay and eventual democratic collapse, except only insofar as it occurred among conservatives; moral relativism within the left was perfectly fine.
No one wants to hear the solution to this, the only real solution. We must build a new civilization on the single principle of "Be excellent to each other."
I don't think that sounds particularly conservative. I think the root causes are deteriorating public education and lack of media regulation, both liberal concerns.
This isn't uniquely "conservative" thinking & it's NOT the thinking of self-proclaimed "conservatives" GOP in Congress.
They're all collaborating with the Felon who's tanking the economy, disappearing people to foreign torture camps, making nice with murderous dictators, and ignoring the law.
The problem is Trump didn't invade from deep space: he's the avatar for a whole lot of Americans who like *everything* he's doing and want *more* of it. I believe that people I counted as friends 10 years ago would blame ME if I disappeared into a gulag. How do you recover without a violent reset?
Not sure a violent reset has been ruled out-even if not physically violent, the the systemic rot and corruption being introduced can’t be allowed to stand in anything new we build together.
Bopping him on the nose will require a violent reset. Do you really think a peaceful solution is within grasp when they are already disappearing people into gulags? I bet some of the people sent to El Salvador are already dead. The violence is here, right now.
Don't give a dictator want he wants, violence, so he can respond with violence. I'd appreciate a passive- aggressive National Strike. Retreat. Step back. Stay home as much as possible. Stop shopping, stop driving. Boycott restaurants, malls, bars, cinemas, public events. Pull back, cut back.
I would say this might depress the economy, but not nearly as fast as Trump is doing himself, like Trump is full speed ahead, pedal to the metal, on crashing the economy.
I sort of agree. But I think we should continue supporting small businesses like bars and restaurants. But using our economic
power is imperative. So is taking to the streets when necessary.
I guess I'm gun shy, literally. Grew up during the Vietnam era. Trump is a sadistic despot. He is itching for a street fight and to exercise his power to invoke the Insurrection Act and imprison more people without due process.Would he kidnap protestors and send them to his prison in El Salvador?
He doesn't need a spark to light that fire. It's already happening. I'm not calling for violence, but I think it's defeatist to tut-tut more extreme factions on our side. It looks weak. Peaceful protests *should not* turn violent, but if the Proud Boys join in, you'll want one of them by your side.
"Don't give a dictator want he wants, violence, so he can respond with violence."
Ah, yes, you're quoting Marie Antionette's famous attempt to discourage the riot which liberated the Bastille. Fortunately, no one believed that ludicrous hogwash!
Foreign governments weaponized the currency and bond markets against Trump and set him back on his heels. It's the smart play. But every Americans will have to sacrifice but that's the price to have our democratic Constitutional government returned. Not blood, nor bone-
You gonna fight against the National Guardmen or the US military combat soldiers in case Trump invokes the Insurrection Act? Know when you're out-gunned,out- manned and over powered. But you don't have to out smarted. They're waiting for the opportunity to smash heads.
1/2
During some of the Black Lives Matters rallies, one of the signals was "white shield". When someone shouted that, white women went to the front. Cops didn't hit as hard, when they're clubbing white women.
There are other tricks. I'd guess you've never moved in the circles which teach the tricks.
2/2
Of course, yes, it's wise to know when you're out-gunned. But that doesn't mean surrender. It means adjust tactics. Civilians at the "Battle of Seattle" had better coordination, than the government forces, and re-located "on the fly" faster than government could deploy to surround them.
that will be a natural reaction, at least in terms of consumers. and it follows bc the effects of a recession (or deity forbid, what i believe will be a full blown depression) folks won't have the wherewithal to do those things anyway.
I'm not advocating or wishing for violence. I'm the least violent you'll ever meet. I've never been in a physical fight, never thrown or taken a punch. I have a strong personal and religious aversion to violence.
All I'm saying is that I simply do not see how this ends in anything other than blood.
I agree. While it is absolutely true that we must continue to rely on non-violent means of resistance for as long as we possibly can in order to avoid giving Trump the excuse he needs to impose full blown martial law...
Yes, but many of the virtues necessary for maintaining a community are conservative virtues: selflessness, commitment to the community, compassion, perseverance, acceptance of one's own limitations—both intellectual and moral. In the current culture, these virtues are completely undesirable.
it's not just the citizens, we need virtuous politicians much more than we need smart ones (systemic factors at work against this of course, but still it needs to be the yardstick)
Why does that make you a conservative??? Civic duty is 100% a liberal belief...
...right? RIGHT?!
Seriously, a true "patriot" will always recognize that. Which is why the healthy majority of Republicans and all of Maga DON'T fall into said category.
Part of the reason why I’m volunteering as a little league coach these days (both my kids participate) is because I feel like it’s the least I can do to contribute to the civic order.
My wife does her part by being active with the PTA.
What is happening now has been a part of the US identity since its inception. The reason why conservatives want to bury history and minorities is to keep Americans from realizing this before enough people realize it all needs to be torn down or it will never be better.
We need to get back to community and caring about our neighbors (all of them) and maybe that will rub off on the angry MAGA's? I am probably delusional.
Are we so sure that civic virtue is existentially collapseable? Isn’t it part of a societal balance with institutions and modes of justice (and manipulative technology)? I’m finding it hard to blame citizens here when our systems of accountability seem to be what’s compromised.
I’m wondering if you’re interpreting institutional faithlessness as civic apathy.
There’s something fundamentally American in our history about some of our most trodden-on victims standing up and going “there is an America here worth fighting for” and that happening again seems possible.
This is why Thomas Jefferson advocated for public education and why we don’t elect the president directly. The electoral college system was supposed to protect us from this bullshit.
That’s correct. And it was fueled and fomented by one man. We’ve always had disagreements and sadly *some* violence…it’s never been like this before. And it all started with Trump and MAGA.
um my dude, where MAGA is concerned, that 'collapse' began back in 1994 with Gingrich's "Contract on America" (and Rush Limbaugh and Fox 'News' and the Clinton impeachment and Leo buying SCOTUS and the Tea Party BS)
...it's MAGA destroying 'civic virtue', all the way down 🐢🐢🐢
My absolute bong rip hot take RN is that YA dystopia fiction was a PsyOp to convince people that the reaction to rising authoritarianism was to sit back and await some teenage Messiah instead of taking part in collective societal and institutional pushback against the Fascists.
We need a teenager
We're holding out for a hero till the end of the night
It's gotta be strong and he's gotta be fast
And its gotta be fresh from the fight...
Now the question becomes how/if you go about recovering it. I live somewhere blessed with geography that naturally made people cooperate and which limited the power of the nobility. Leading the state as it is today.
For the US I simply don't know how you go about doing that. Im too stupid for that
I agree, if by lack of civic virtue you mean racism, bigotry, misogyny, and massive ignorance of or interest in human decency. That inevitably leads to fascism. I wouldn't worry too much about being labeled a conservative at this point.
"We are unique in the way we regard anyone who takes no part in public affairs: we do not call that a quiet life, we call it a useless life." - Pericles
How long did slavery endure, despite the work of abolitionists? How long did Jim Crow endure after the Civil War? How many were killed in Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan, Iraq, and countless other places in the name of freedom? You're deluded if you think this is new.
As _Futurama_ put it, the essence of authoritarianism is that you can sit around in your underpants drinking beer all day, until it's your turn to go on the suicide mission
I've heard multiple teachers saying we need to go back to a classical education or maybe at least teach Western Civ. And not like the chauvinist Western Civ but like maybe what Declaration of Independence said and what the arguments in it were based on. Like maybe we can all try reading again
But that’s not conservative at all. America is founded on the rational and secular values of the Enlightenment. Liberal is supposed to mean individual rights protecting government.
Neither dems, nor GOP, support this, but the latter have gone bonkers and are an existential threat to the West.
I remember several years back when the army was doing the "army of one" campaign. Maybe they meant it as "you can make a difference" but it came across very main character syndrome instead. I realized being part of a team didn't interest a lot of people anymore. Just their own superiority.
Having a nation whose citizens, on average, have attained but a dubious high school education, who read at an eight-grade level, and who widely have non-existent critical thinking skills doesn’t help.
Ok, but who was your virtuous democracy benefiting and who was it harming?
It’s time to re-think our relationships with one another and to create a world beyond virtue signalling a democracy that left so many behind and disenfranchised so many.
That shining city on the hill was always a mirage.
What happened isn't that virtue collapsed, it's rather that parties became very weak and Americans became hyperpolarized on identity issues after the Civil Rights era.
Primaries, in particular gave extremists a chance to win elections without party backing.
Jonathan Rauch and @dziblatt.bsky.social and Steven Levitsky detail it well in their articles and books, and the first source is the Atlantic article "How American Politics went Insane":
Jonathan Rauch's book Political Realism: How Hacks, Machines, Big Money, and Back-Room Deals Can Strengthen American Democracy is another useful source:
Historical context for all of this is Daniel Ziblatt's Conservative Parties and the Birth of Democracy, on how conservative parties either accepted or failed to accept democracy, and the result is that strong conservative parties accepted democracy, while weak conservative parties broke democracy:
Yes. Not enough people are fucking mad as hell at the daily turds these MFers are doing all over the constitution and the rule of law. Barricades should have been stormed by now and justice demanded.
What are you getting? I've got my eye on a 1911 22LR. Cheap ammo, good accuracy. I don't buy into the stopping power fallacy. A small bullet accurately placed is more effective than a big bullet missing...
It doesn't make you sound like a conservative at all.
Conservatives have reduced the entirety of morality and virtue into exactly two policies — suppressing the rights of LGBTQ people, and treating abortion as murder. Supporting those is what makes you a "good" person to conservatives.
There is a difference between being a conservative (small government overseeing a well-regulated market and leveraging an effective but not expansive social safety net) and being a reactionary conservative (leverage power to preserve a societal order where I end up on top.)
Because of the past 3 months, I would call myself a conservative. I want to conserve civic virtue, the rule of law, international trade, civic education. I want (reasonable) foreign intervention in the name of human rights and democracy. Strong int’l alliances. These are conservative values now.
When POTUS said the guy who remained a POW for 5 years, despite the chance leave the Hanoi Hilton just by saying a few words, wasn't a real hero...that was a sign our civic virtue balance had dropped below 0.
(Alternately, mocking a disabled journalist should've made him radioactive.)
Conservatives have argued my whole damn life that people were too irreparably broken to be trusted with their own freedom, except to buy guns. Isn’t that what Strauss was all about? Civic virtue hasn’t sounded conservative for decades.
I don't think this is in disagreement, but the "conservative" part comes when someone tries to make the root cause out to be individual personal moral failings or lack of religion.
Greed, profit drive, lack of accountability for inflicting civic harms all seem plausible sources of "moral decay"
It would only make you sound conservative if you are trying to pretend that American conservatives are not responsible for said collapse of civic virtue through destroying the right of all citizens to vote and demonizing the noble servants devoting time to work in the government for all our benefit.
Conservatives don't give 2 shits about civic virtue. They only care about ethnic nationalism. Being a member of the "right" group makes you virtuous, regardless of your actions. It's like Calvinist pre-determination except for countries.
Only makes you a conservative if you refuse to see that this is the result of decades of poor education re USA history, insidious FOX news, the tragedy of Citizens United and the constant belief that success is defined solely by wealth/prestige.
Capitalism and democracy cannot coexist, because the corps just realized all they had to do was convince (propagandize) the people into voting against democracy.
Likewise a democracy that takes no action against anti democracy will cease to be.
Capitalist democracy is a contradiction for it seeks to create a hierarchy in the economic aspect of society with nothing but a fool's prayer that the hierarchy will remain confined to economics alone.
Regulation would be better than no regulation, absolutely, but as the Nordic countries demonstrate, such systems are still flawed. An economic system beyond capitalisn would be even better.
It’s the last two things, not “poor education”. My great grand only had an 8th grade education, and they didn’t have to deal with a dictator in office. Compulsory HS education is still relatively recent in American history.
Poor education re violence against Native Americans, women, POC , the labor movement and the ability to practice discernment re info sourcing.
Never much effort in US education.
Why would that make you a conservative? Civic virtue was a very weak link in the founders' vision, and it's conservatives more than anyone who have destroyed it by attacking functioning democracy because they only want white men voting, and they really don't want that either.
They're busy making tiktoks of themselves consuming crap, acting like morons in public and selling time with other useless idiots watching them breathe ... 🙄 absolutely 💯 disappointing to a teacher . They didn't vote they only whine and don't CARE about others
Is this conservative?
A country tolerating a president who talks publicly of wanting his arse licked, who revels in the prospect of people grovelling?
Yes, the Americans have got the president they deserve, and all they will have to eat is what they can lick.
To vastly varying degrees. It's not the United States as a whole. It's the section that spent three decades watching Fox, and their ideological descendants. It was all done to them on purpose by billionaires, but they didn't resist anywhere near hard enough.
Dunno how that makes one sound like a conservative but I agree with you 100%. The intellectual degradation that's happened over the last 50+ years, along with empathy and emotional intelligence being seen as cringe, weird, or downright bad has strengthened those who only think for themselves.
Did they ever possess this degree of civic virtue? Like didn't most Americans support the Kent State shootings? A majority of people disapproved of interracial marriage until 1988
people are saying more civics classes for kids would do something but that's silly. the problem isn't a lack of lectures to sleep through but a lack of civil society.
historically democracy is learned by doing. democratic societies have civic associations and clubs and functioning local governments
this is the Tocqueville/Bowling Alone pill - there are 100 different habits of 'democratic citizenship' that have to be acquired through little acts of self-government. jury duty, town assemblies, inner workings of unions and fraternal orgs. when the TV killed those, it started a doom loop.
Don't be an idiot on purpose. Stop for one second and consider if your personal definition of "anarchist" isn't based on propaganda. You are not immune. It doesn't fucking mean "no rules lol"
Yeah. It does. It is literally a philosophy that rejects rule-based systems of governance. I want to see how intellectually honest the OP is with his self identification.
All the anarchists I know (quite a few) have lots of rules for personal behavior and who they will associate with. They do not impose them on others or tolerate those who attempt to impose rules on others, that’s what makes them anarchists. It’s anti-authority not anti-order or anti-structure.
Yep. I’ll even admit that the world anarchists want is extremely hard to achieve. But if someone wants to criticize it, they should do so on the basis of what it actually claims, not some straw man version they heard from reactionaries.
Anarchism does not mean “no rules”. Do you think that I do not know what anarchism actually means and I just say it to sound cool and edgy? I think you need to actually read anarchist literature before you say ridiculous things. Read “Means and Ends” by Zoe Baker for a good overview.
It turns out if society doesn't make it a point to educate its populace on the value of democracy and sane government, then people can and will be educated by someone else with different intentions.
I agree to a point. The US needs to teach civics in school like they used to as well as address the racism that this country was built on. Sweeping our history under the rug just prolongs the myth
It’s also very worrying how unresilient your democracy and checks & balances have proven to be, which is surely compounded by the collapse of civic virtue.
Over the last 40 to 45 years, we have destroyed the concept of the public good: education, transportation, and civil protection and service used to be public goods. We have removed all of those things from the public and have suffered as a democracy as a cosequence.
If 40% of voters can still support a president disappearing people to a concentration camp in contravention of court orders, perhaps the internet truly has cooked us.
a consequence of 30% of our population never paying attention to politics and another 30% only tuning in around elections and treating it like a spectacle
"Dear America: You are waking up, as Germany once did, to the awareness that 1/3 of your people would kill another 1/3, while 1/3 watches." - not Werner Hertzog
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impeach felon 47, aka krasnov.
There needs to be a universal symbol.
And the civic virtue part, couldn't agree more. The fact that people don't care, that this and everything else isn't enough for them, is stunning.
They're ecstatic about being able to say the n word at work. Their aspirations are not ... inspiring.
you are gesturing to a majority of support and encouragement from the country as whole that just does not exist.
June 16 marks 10 years since Trump came down that escalator. Now we send him back! How?
With a nationwide general strike and the largest protest in history to save democracy!
Repost if you’re in!
cc @atrupar.com
I did not think absolute power would corrupt so quickly.
They've exempt themselves from survival of the fittest should it become a necessity to be self reliant
Where was this moral panic when democracy was being hollowed out by voter suppression, corruption, or corporate capture? Don’t preach civic values if you only apply them selectively.
The whole idea of civilization is pooling resources to achieve a greater good. Destroying civilization makes everyone worse
https://bsky.app/profile/rudell.bsky.social/post/3lmsjm36q5s26
Bullshit is vulnerably to earnestness. Jed Bartlet’s corny ass would KILL in this environment.
https://bsky.app/profile/dbonowitz.bsky.social/post/3lmhtge4ruk2l
The ppl we are discussing live in a sealed information environment that is utterly hostile to the virtue in question.
This is a problem with the kids, too. And they're both potentially easier to reach, and probably more important in the long run. And a *lot* of them are lost right now.
Documenting silence is harder, but we at least need to track those that willingly participate, or bend the knee
Even then, the memory of which party was responsible won't last 4 years.
*holds up Constitution and points at 45-y/o Venture Capitalist*
“SINNER!”
*points at Leftist Bernie-lover who went MAGA*
“HERETIC!”
*8-Term Senator*
“LEECH!”
Yes, like in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
They're all collaborating with the Felon who's tanking the economy, disappearing people to foreign torture camps, making nice with murderous dictators, and ignoring the law.
The shrug empowers him. The more you tell him no and stop him, the more you punish his kind? The easier it is to get him to back down.
No sell his shit. To his face. Stop playing ball.
When they are talking about doing the same to anyone they can deem as a terrorist. IE: a threat to the state.
Especially when they can expunge your SSN.
power is imperative. So is taking to the streets when necessary.
The question then is, how many people will be willing to go quietly when Trump's jackbooted thugs come to drag them away?
However much the ideal suffers in practice, that’s the aspirational beauty of a democracy: the mutual agreement never to let it get that far.
Trump is taking that from us. All bets are off.
Ah, yes, you're quoting Marie Antionette's famous attempt to discourage the riot which liberated the Bastille. Fortunately, no one believed that ludicrous hogwash!
Not then, nor at Stonewall.
During some of the Black Lives Matters rallies, one of the signals was "white shield". When someone shouted that, white women went to the front. Cops didn't hit as hard, when they're clubbing white women.
There are other tricks. I'd guess you've never moved in the circles which teach the tricks.
Of course, yes, it's wise to know when you're out-gunned. But that doesn't mean surrender. It means adjust tactics. Civilians at the "Battle of Seattle" had better coordination, than the government forces, and re-located "on the fly" faster than government could deploy to surround them.
A repeated strike is probably not going to cut it...
All I'm saying is that I simply do not see how this ends in anything other than blood.
And we *ALL* need to prepare in every way possible for when that day comes.
"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
A matter of degrees of difference.
...right? RIGHT?!
Seriously, a true "patriot" will always recognize that. Which is why the healthy majority of Republicans and all of Maga DON'T fall into said category.
My wife does her part by being active with the PTA.
It’s why I still mentor for FIRST robotics despite my kids being well out of school.
Racism is causing us to take the scenic view in strengthening civic organizations. The long way around may never get there though
45%? Really?
I suspect that if we see civic apathy when we look for it, we will also see civic virtue if we look for THAT, it just may be in unrecognizable forms
There’s something fundamentally American in our history about some of our most trodden-on victims standing up and going “there is an America here worth fighting for” and that happening again seems possible.
It started with the federalist society.
An illiberal group that placed their minions into the judical system to undermine it and bring about autocracy.
...it's MAGA destroying 'civic virtue', all the way down 🐢🐢🐢
We're holding out for a hero till the end of the night
It's gotta be strong and he's gotta be fast
And its gotta be fresh from the fight...
For the US I simply don't know how you go about doing that. Im too stupid for that
As _Futurama_ put it, the essence of authoritarianism is that you can sit around in your underpants drinking beer all day, until it's your turn to go on the suicide mission
Neither dems, nor GOP, support this, but the latter have gone bonkers and are an existential threat to the West.
It’s time to re-think our relationships with one another and to create a world beyond virtue signalling a democracy that left so many behind and disenfranchised so many.
That shining city on the hill was always a mirage.
But I think we should blame scrolling anyway because there is no way democracy benefits from passified scroll zombies
What happened isn't that virtue collapsed, it's rather that parties became very weak and Americans became hyperpolarized on identity issues after the Civil Rights era.
Primaries, in particular gave extremists a chance to win elections without party backing.
Also if it was good enough for my uncle to deal with fascist begging on their knees in 1945, it’s still good enough today
Just get a striker fired 9mm.
(Hey, sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying! Other times, you just gotta laugh full stop.)
Conservatives have reduced the entirety of morality and virtue into exactly two policies — suppressing the rights of LGBTQ people, and treating abortion as murder. Supporting those is what makes you a "good" person to conservatives.
(Alternately, mocking a disabled journalist should've made him radioactive.)
https://signal-noise-ratio.ghost.io/tariffs-we-must-be-better/
Greed, profit drive, lack of accountability for inflicting civic harms all seem plausible sources of "moral decay"
Likewise a democracy that takes no action against anti democracy will cease to be.
in fact, we have to infrastructure now to resist and even demolish corporate control over the narrative
its just a matter of the collective will power to learn about the shortcomings of the past and force the change
Never much effort in US education.
Obama and Black lives matter upset the "natural" order of things.
A country tolerating a president who talks publicly of wanting his arse licked, who revels in the prospect of people grovelling?
Yes, the Americans have got the president they deserve, and all they will have to eat is what they can lick.
historically democracy is learned by doing. democratic societies have civic associations and clubs and functioning local governments
I'm not even a perfect anarchist, but its pretty easy to get the difference between someone who "leads" and someone who "rules" over you.