Perhaps we can stop being so parochial about Starmer's trip to Washington now. It was a failure. We are in a battle against fascism. And every decision we make is judged by whether it assisted or opposed it.
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With all probability inadvertently, SKS' trip served to inflate the Trump ego enough that I bet he went to bed on cloud 9 and it served to bring out the narcissist tendencies enough today that all filters were off and we got the real Don.
The leader of the UK went to Washington to appease Trump. Willing to bend over backwards to avoid any economic pain for the UK. Offering trinkets. Shameful.
The free world needs to come together in a new order. Leadership must find ways to work together. The US has sided with Putin and Russia. They no longer have the right to claim to be examples of democracy or leader of the free world. We need focus, remain strong and support each other.
Starmer & Lammy aren't stupid. They'll have had a clear eyed look around and a good listen yesterday. We shouldn't expect them to publicly utter anything other than diplomatic niceties whilst on a visit.
Their real opinions, the meat & veg of their appraisal, will be shared with other Euro leaders.
I think it succeeded in one way, Trump now has an invitation for a State visit to meet the King, - which will now be publicly withdrawn, - and that will HURT him.
Yes, I think so, because the reason it was offered to him in the first place is that it is something that he would value, that no other Country could offer him, and so he will miss it when it's gone
He and Macron did what they had to do. I think they both knew, as did the rest of Europe, but they couldn't know for sure until they went through it. Trump is the rogue problem, not Starmer or Macron.
Trump knows he has UK by the balls; he patronised KS/UK
DT: “Can you take Russia on by yourselves?”
JDV: ~ ”No free speech in UK”
We’ll be fucked with an FTA
I supported Starmer yesterday. I thought he managed to tread a fine diplomatic line. But seeing events unfold today history may refer to it as the scrap of paper moment. Trump is no friend of Europe and we need to realise that now.
Very rarely I disagree with you, but you have this one wrong I think. He did all he could, but it’s clear Trump was hell bent on humiliating Zelenskyy.
It’s not a failure by Starmer, but abject moral cowardice & bullying by Trump & Vance.
He sold out our aid budget, he offered a state visit, he sucked up… and he got nothing. It’s not about “defending Ukraine” all European leaders (outside orban) are on board. He sold out British interests and got nothing.
Trump is a venal, narcissistic, a$$ but is also the democratically elected leader of the USA. His major weakness is his narcissism. The UK state visit invitation exploited this weakness to try to avoid a punishing trade war for the U.K. and maintain US $ support for Ukraine. It’s a dirty business.
He gambled and it blew up in his face… it’s that simple. His advisors and the British press celebrated. 24 hours later and he now still hasn’t made a statement. Gave up half our aid budget to get nothing back. Labour mp’s are starting to lose faith
Worth a try but now is a time to embrace our European friends. When it comes down to an argument about values, being English is irrelevant, you’re either European liberal democracy or a fascist (accepting this might not be the correct term)
As an aside, despise the fact that Englishness has become a debate when we are in a time where the values that have been fundamental to western democracies (and hell any democracies as I understand the term) are under threat
What did Starmer get? That he can side with Trump against European democracy? A chance at a trade deal where he'd be tasked at enforcing tariffs against the EU, China and whoever else like a good little vassal state? The self congratulations is mad.
He did what he had to do. Trump still has to have his own name on his underwear so he remembers it. It was up to Zelenskyy. And he took the lead. Now it’s for the EU and Britain to pick a side.
What were you expecting? Starmer to get agent Krasnow in a headlock and scream at him ‘whose the daddy now then?’ Grow up.
Trump is Putin’s poodle and a vindictive prick. Thanks to FSB asset Boris Johnson and Brexit we are in a shitty situation that’s going to take some fixing.
…there acting like an aggressive, impolite idiot at a shindig organised by the formerly reliable village mayor’s mentally defective son.
Instead you are polite, you complement the gaudy decor and if he oversteps his bounds push back in such a way that Mungo doesn’t get the rise out of you he wants.
The security environment will probably mean the visit is postponed. If he comes to London, there will be massive protests, which even if peaceful, are going to be a logistical nightmare for the security services. So I suspect it won't happen.
Well wouldn’t that be something to see The adulterer entertaining a convicted felon who frequented Epstein island along with the adulterers brother where they abused young women, I’m sure they would have a lot to talk about, do we really want a visit after all
Asc a labour member let me tell you why..Trump is a criminal acting as a dictator president..Starmer refuses to stand up to the gobshite,I am extremely disappointed in Starmers failed leadership and Ukraine are not happy either..truth is Labour needs a stronger leader.,& I supported Starmer.
And despite that his use and command of English was miles better than theirs. Every point he made was accurate true and understandable. They might as well have been speaking lizard
But I think both Macron and Starmer can meet now and say, we tried? And Europe will need France's nuclear capability if we are to detach ourselves from the US, as we must.
So pretty pointless trying then. However … yes they had to try but the way Starmer did it was nauseatingly sycophantic compared to Macron & especially Zelenskiyy who courageously stood up to two arrogant, rude thundercunts. State visit should never have been offered unless it’s weaponised to punish
I think that your conclusions are ahead of a curve (that this abomination has rapidly shortened) in the minds of all European leaders. This is far, far worse than even the most pessimistic had thought.
Time to pick a side & not vacillate.
Time to get out the cheque book or start borrowing.
Time to issue War Bonds & tax the upper rich .
This has been a warning … don’t let Starmer ignore it !
Starmer and Macron had no option, but to try. It’s clear now, appeasement won’t work with this mafia-led USA government. Promises will not be honoured. My US business associate had to sue Trump in the 80s to get paid for a telecoms system installed in his “flagship” casino. Which went bust.
I don’t think it’s being parochial to see Starmer’s trip as the right thing to do.
It had the support of Europe. And it went well in its own right.
We shouldn’t conflate that with Trump’s unacceptable performance today.
It’s another day and another situation with which UK & Eu must and will deal.
The battle for American hearts and minds must take place in America. There are signs of over-reach, potential economic vulnerability and the seeds of civil unrest. Trump is already the least popular president to enter the White House with a negative rating.
So then, Starmer. You've crawled on your hands and knees to Trump. Either you stand up or you're a craven, despicable Trump/Vance boot-licking coward. Which is it to be?
You could make an argument that the end justifies the means but if the end is still Trump parroting Putin talking points then I'm afraid that Starmer's & Macron's efforts must rank alongside Chamberlain's meeting with Hitler in the annals of embarrassingly failed, diplomatic history
Thank you, Ian. I pray that Starmer retracts his invite but will he have the guts? I don't want to see any famous Brit stiff upper lip here. Save it for Ukraine.
There was a chance the Starmer and Macron visits might have worked. Until this afternoon Trump and co seemed to have moved. Unfortunately Trump is still a very nasty ruthless cowboy with no Theory of Mind and gives no shits about anyone. It is now Europe v US. Russia China etc. Not looking good
Srarmer giggled like a schoolgirl, Zelensky acted like a man, a leader. Total contrast. Hope Starmer and Macron condemn the horrific bullying that took place by the US in the White House today. 🇺🇦.
Those of us who were saying that earlier were being heavily criticised for merely stating that Starmer should not have offered Felon 47 a state visit.
I hope they can see that now?
I’m not even sure why he was there, I mean he not exactly the strongest nail in the rack, I’d have rather he stayed home, he’s made us look weak, and that makes us look weak in the eyes of Russia
As #LibDems’ leader #EdDavey has said this evening:
“This is thuggery from Trump and Vance, plain and simple.
They are bullying the brave true patriot Zelensky into accepting a deal which effectively hands victory to Russia. Unless the UK and Europe step up, we are facing a betrayal of Ukraine.”
Not a failure - the best we could do in the circumstances. But now we have a far clearer picture of what the circumstances really are. Which leaves the PM no option but to support Zelensky.
While almost EVERYONE in Ireland has signed a petition to stop our government going over with the obligatory bowl of Shamrock in a few weeks time. Let me tell everyone that Micheal Martin does NOT do this in our name!
Disagree with you there. Starmer did a reasonable job under the circumstances. We’ve witnessed something tonight that’s without precedent. Yes, we knew this was a possible outcome but you can’t judge yesterday on today.
Whoever advised Starmer to sweeten him with that letter from Charles need to get the heave ho. Starmer didn't play him - Trump saw it as weakness - which it was.
@iandunt.bsky.social I don't believe having a tentatively positive view on successfully babysitting an infantile orange balloon who happens to have his finger on the big red button is overly parochial.
As a neutral I thought Starmer played a pretty good hand there, but it's been blown out of the water. Zelensky has stamped his foot in the sand and it's now up to Europe to unite and defend. Fuck America.
Parochial...what was he supposed to do, he was following Macrons lead which had gone well..they know that they are dealing with a lunatic, all was tentatively OK until Trump had a dictatorial meltdown with Zelensky.
Some of you will find anything to berate Starmer...its pathetic.
No, it was not a failure. It was right at time, most of the usually toxic press agreed. Now Trump, goaded by Vance, has gone off on a tangent (under putin's orders of course) to attack Zelensky
Me this AM 👇#Starmer brandishing his invite for a State Visit, (recommended to HRH by Starmer) reminds me of the trinkets, mirrors etc taken by the Slave Traders to far away places to entice their business.
To give #Trump legitimacy / recognition in the face of what he says/does is a big mistake.
Krasnov has made it clear they won’t be staying unless they can exploit nations for their own benefit. At what point do we accept that this is how it is, that they are siding with Putin and we cut all ties with them. They’ll fuck us over if we don’t
I agree. Trump’s duplicity entirely. Starmer played it well yesterday. Just like Macron did on Monday. But today is another day. The last straw in my view. This meeting was contrived.
Yes. Trump is a disgrace. And think the UK and the EU should now ditch the US. Trump thinks that they can be an isolationist bully. But cut him off, and he becomes weak. The best thing to do with a bully is to ignore them.
Exactly. Strange that this may sound to say, but leadership of the Free world seems to be moving out of the United States. It will have to go somewhere else. Time to shore up the pillars of democracy in Europe.
I think the silence is telling — there is surely an anodyne statement that could be made. Hell, even a generic „we stand with Ukraine“ comment would be better than silence.
It was a failure. Starmer tried. And had to try. But Trump cannot be cajoled or contained. The flattery works momentarily and is then swiftly forgotten. Another day, another meltdown. Learn from this Starmer, and never ever pander to it again.
Principles and bravery now. And Europe.
It’s a prime example of Starmer’s naivety and inability to read a situation. Trump is chaos in a nappy. Yet Starmer thinks being a bit English and waving royal invitations about is statecraft.
Agree but Starmer debased himself and the UK with the way he stroked Krasnov’s ego and more specifically with the 2nd State visit. Bullies only ever back off if you stand up to them
While I get (and appreciate) that Macron, Starmer and Zelenskyy had to try-- had to go through the motions, publicly-- it was obvious long beforehand how all of these appeals would go. Ultimately, their reasons for doing so were less getting the US back than showing how far gone the US now is.
I think going through the motions in public was important as then it is obvious that extreme action is needed fast. The London meeting this Sunday was organised for this very reason.
Leaders themselves probably also needed convincing. Like journalists, they're often disinclined to observe the f*cking obvious.
Even if you ignore all of the US/RU/Ukraine stuff, the NATO, WHO, and threats of "annexing" Canada should've been Klieg Lights of clues to where America is going.
In a way today’s disgraceful behaviour by Trump and Vance makes the situation very clear and lays the groundwork for a new European Defence and Security Strategy.
Hopefully, it will be one which will include Canada, Australia, South Korea, New Zealand, Japan and others. Because we're all going to have to be consistently on the same page for this.
It wasn't a mistake for Starmer to go and try the civilised way. Not Starmer's fault that Trump is an unmitigated disaster area - but now, I think the the UK and the EU have to abandon any attempt to work with Trump.
NO, it was NOT a failure, yes we are in a battle against fascism. How would it look if we had not tried. No one is going to get this right but we have to stand against any form of tyranny.
I think if he hadn’t gone it would have given the message that the UK isn’t playing ball, as it stands he went, was ineffective other than to cosy up to trump, he didn’t take a strong stance which he could have done, in fact he came across as the weakest of all the leaders who visited
I'm no fan of William Hague but try and find the Times radio podcast with him from the start of this week. As someone who served as PM and foreign secretary he can and does provide a lot of insight into the unique problems the UK will face disentangling itself from America.
Unfortunately, we are in a conjoined twin relationship in terms of our military-industrial capacity, except we're the only one who dies if they make the cut. We need to be very careful with the scalpel.
It is useful to have the comparison between the meetings, so close together. Hopefully focuses the minds of the European leaders for their Sunday meeting.
He did what was needed in old style diplomatic manner, got out alive without sanctions threats. That’s a win, trump is an unstable psychopath surrounded by sycophants, Vance tried to start the fight and failed re free speech, could have easily gone the way of todays meeting, he showed constraint.
Ok Ian, so in your alternative world Starmer turns up at the White House, calls Trump a Cunt and fucks off! As we are no longer in the EU, he would have just lost our biggest trading partner 🤔
Strong disagree. You wanted Starmer to walk into that bear pit, too? Trump is in awe to anything posh and English; he showed his weakness by pissing his diapers over Chas' letter.
Ian. He and Macron had to try? The delight from some on here trying to kick the PM for working with our European allies to keep America on side should be applauded and appreciated
I don’t think this particular moment was foreseen. It is unprecedented. The lengths to which they went to bully Zelenskyy - a nominal ally - publicly was astounding. I imagined something like this could take place at some point in the future, but not a day or two after Macron’s & Starmer’s visit.
Entirely predictable. All about publicly humiliating Zelenskiyy and forcing him to hand Ukraine over to Putin and Krasnov. Starmer’s fawning and supplication encouraged this
100%
This existential now - Starmer has a lot to think over before he meets Zelensky.
Probably the first thing he’ll have to do is give the poor man a stiff drink!
Starmer is trying the flattery route with Trump, with invitations from the palace etc.
But how can Starmer trust Trump to keep his word and not turn on the UK at any time?
Would you suggest that the second of the five eyes powers shouldn't have gone to try to talk sense? There are three possible actions to take. One is to ignore, one is to intervene, and one is to try to reason. He's tried reason, because it is the obviously preferable option.
Comments
Trump's State visit should be cancelled for a start.
Their real opinions, the meat & veg of their appraisal, will be shared with other Euro leaders.
Britain mistakenly breaths a sigh of relief
Trump knows he has UK by the balls; he patronised KS/UK
DT: “Can you take Russia on by yourselves?”
JDV: ~ ”No free speech in UK”
We’ll be fucked with an FTA
Time will tell… didn't have to wait long
It’s not a failure by Starmer, but abject moral cowardice & bullying by Trump & Vance.
Starmer tried to use his influence to help Ukraine - he’s not the bad guy here.
It wasn't starmers fault, by all accounts he tried his best against an illogical fool
And no matter how much we all hate Trump, you can’t base foreign policy on emotions.
Trump is Putin’s poodle and a vindictive prick. Thanks to FSB asset Boris Johnson and Brexit we are in a shitty situation that’s going to take some fixing.
You don’t get…
Instead you are polite, you complement the gaudy decor and if he oversteps his bounds push back in such a way that Mungo doesn’t get the rise out of you he wants.
Like Macron he did what he had to do.
They both tried.
After today there should be no more "try".
Zelensky only has a basic grasp of the English language.
Trump and Vance took advantage of that and did a double act attack on him!
They are disgusting!
They KNEW he struggled with the English language!
NO STATE VISIT FOR TRUMP, Keir Starmer!
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/no-2nd-state-visit-for-donald-trump
It didn’t go as badly as it might have and didn’t descend into a hideous spectacle like today but not successful in any meaningful way.
With People Who Say
What’s Mine is Mine
and What’s Yours Is
Negotiable.
John F Kennedy
35th U.S. President
Trump has made it clear beyond any doubt that he's chosen to side with Putin.
I hear European leaders are having an emergency meeting.
Time to get out the cheque book or start borrowing.
Time to issue War Bonds & tax the upper rich .
This has been a warning … don’t let Starmer ignore it !
It had the support of Europe. And it went well in its own right.
We shouldn’t conflate that with Trump’s unacceptable performance today.
It’s another day and another situation with which UK & Eu must and will deal.
We will need time to get our act together and playing him is the best way to buy that time.
I hope Starmer is cognisant of that. We have to take care of Europe.
This time the most powerful country in the world is on the evil side, which is also joined by China.
We cannot defeat them with force & must use guile & diplomacy to survive
I hope they can see that now?
America is a failed state and a Russian outpost at this point. Until they have a proper revolution and remove him and Musk by force, they're over.
“This is thuggery from Trump and Vance, plain and simple.
They are bullying the brave true patriot Zelensky into accepting a deal which effectively hands victory to Russia. Unless the UK and Europe step up, we are facing a betrayal of Ukraine.”
At the time, I felt like he approached Trump the same way he did Johnson. Say little & let him hang by his own rope.
He pretty much mirrored Macron’s approach.
Trump showed his true colours and loyalties today - and the world saw it live in 4K - Europe now knows it has to move forward without him
Some of you will find anything to berate Starmer...its pathetic.
To give #Trump legitimacy / recognition in the face of what he says/does is a big mistake.
And we must keep trying.
We need the US in eastern europe for as long as we can keep them. For Ukraine, and Moldova and Georgia this is existential.
And the following war must also be avoided. What's hard about this to understand?
We’ll see?
Principles and bravery now. And Europe.
Even if you ignore all of the US/RU/Ukraine stuff, the NATO, WHO, and threats of "annexing" Canada should've been Klieg Lights of clues to where America is going.
Zelensky was ambushed & alone.
I doubt he's cowed by those two fucking idiots.
God forbid if we withdraw the invite. It’s our bargaining chip.
That will hurt Trump more than losing all the minerals in Ukraine.
We just need to be strong enough, principled enough and admittedly, in this unknown territory we find ourselves, brave enough!
Based on the above, because it assisted fascism? And if that is the reason, why do you think it did?
Disgusting.
Trump invited Russian state media FFS.
Russia is playing us all because they can't make progress in Ukraine.
Russia used Starmer.
This existential now - Starmer has a lot to think over before he meets Zelensky.
Probably the first thing he’ll have to do is give the poor man a stiff drink!
It was mainly UK/US diplomacy.
But how can Starmer trust Trump to keep his word and not turn on the UK at any time?