Usually teach Lord of the Flies at the end of the year but decided to move it up to February because, yeah, I dunno, felt like a good time to explore fascism and masculinity as brutality.
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Boy, lots of comments here certainly make the case that Lord of the Flies is a classic example of a book about which people's opinions are formed from what they've heard other (wrong) people say about it rather than from having actually read it.
To everyone pointing out the "real life" LotF event and how it suggests the human instinct tends to mutual aid in crisis, I agree, and in fact Kelly and I talked about this in an early episode. But...
The whole "The Lord of The Flies has been disproven" nonsense drives me nuts.
A small group of teens who were already friends spending a week fishing is not the same as dozens or hundreds of children who don't know each other, for example.
Especially not when those children have been raised to believe that they are at the top of the social hierarchy and that the military is a reasonable microcosm of how all society should function.
...that's not what LotF is arguing. It's making a case for how a psychopath like Jack can pass for "civilized" because he goes through the motions of being trained in "civility" by a brutal war machine (the British Empire, or at least its remnants) and...
...warns that vulnerable, scared people are *more likely* to fall under the sway of the likes of Jack and ditch Democracy (Ralph) and virtue (Simon) for a phony security because they confuse violence and arrogance with strength.
You don't *need* a real-life case of marooned people to prove LotF's point, because it won't (unless that is the marooned have been indoctrinated by predatory militarism).
All you need to prove the point is the last ten years of MAGA.
And, no, at no point have I uncovered any secret red hats in teaching LotF. Part of the goal is to show them the horrors of a poisonous fascist like Jack BEFORE they have a chance to go MAGA. And they all get it.
I will say this - I know a lot of young men are being radicalized, but I've been teaching for a long time, and in my experience, in recent years, kids are becoming MORE empathetic, accepting, and resistant to authoritarianism.
It's just an observation. The trend over the last 10 years has been a lot less intolerance and a lot more openness. I think the kids who were quite a bit younger during the pandemic simply processed it differently. I'm teaching those kids now.
When I was in high school, “lord of the flies” changed me - seriously. Totally gave me new information about human nature. One of the most disturbing things I’ve ever read and I’m grateful for it.
I live behind a school. Like LITERALLY, the school yard is on the other side of my fence, and there's even another school on the corner. So TWO schools RIGHT next to me.
There's kids around my place chatting all the time, I hear lots of their conversations.
SAME. The school is behind my neighbors fence. Im outside trying to stay sane in the sunshine with my dogs quite a lot these days and I hear the best stuff. I've had to look up some of the words, yes, cuz I'm old but damn. the emotional intelligence and empathy is a 10.
My personal favorite may still be a gem from the 1st T-bag administration: highschool footballers finish practice. tallest, blondest one gets to his bag, fishes out cell, & snorts in contempt. "omg, dude, you gotta *see* what the president tweeted..." I've never heard an eyeroll verbalized so hard!🤭
My kids are a little older - early 20s - but that is generally my impression of Gen Z kids. I've found them to be kind, empathetic and comparatively well informed.
I mean, yeah. Even if the adults in their immediate lives care about them, they’ve never had a government that acted on their behalf. They’ve had active shooter drills since kindergarten. It’s pretty hard to cultivate trust in a population with that history.
Powerful story. I'm glad it's still being taught. I remember us reading and studying it in the mid 70s and also watching the film. The impact of it is still with me today.
I'm an avid bibliophile but I will admit that is one book I absolutely hated in 1985 (10th grade) and hate now, 40 years later. But I'm willing to admit it is quite apropos at this point in time.
look into the show Yellowjackets… totally has a LOTF theme, could definitely incorporate “aggression” and emphasize that when push comes to shove we are just like youuu
I wrote a book report about this one without reading it. I was young and had just watched bugs life so I went with it. The teacher was more impressed I'd come up with a fictional story I wrote a perfect report on rather than read the literature presented. O.D.D. is a hell of a condition.
It’s also like Heart of Darkness and shows what happens when you remove societal norms, constraints and guardrails we revert to our base, animalistic selves.
Which I don't think is true! It's important that the boys were at an elite military academy! It's important they believe in the aristocratic order! It's important that Jack is a sociopath! I don't believe MOST humans would just "revert" to anything!
So you don’t think the cautionary tale posed by Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now rings true? Perhaps it’s not fully analogous to the themes in Lord of the Flues.
No. I don't think the evidence supports it. I think portrayals of humans being on the verge of savagery at all times but for civilization is rooted in colonialist propaganda and racism. It also misrepresents how animals operate - tooth and claw is almost entirely a myth.
FWIW, the whole notion of survival of the fittest as a tooth-and-claw narrative came not from Darwin but from Thomas Huxley. Huxley peddled the worst misinterpretations of Darwin (who in fact argued that cooperation was our strongest adaptive trait) to help colonialists justify their bullshit.
I'm not saying humans aren't capable of evil or savagery. Of course they are. But the premise of LotF is actually NOT "if you stick a bunch of people on an island they'll resort to savagery and murder!" Because in times of crisis, MOST people go immediately into cooperation and mutual aid mode.
Which brings me to what people miss about LotF - the savagery is not a product of any one character's nature (Ralph manages to stave it off) but of civilization *itself*.
It was the colonial, aristocratic order that made Jack, and only after he had been bred to be a psychopath (or, as he'd have been known in England, a gentleman) and *then* left in the wild could his worst impulses be realized.
William golding was a known cynic and a believer in the ideas that civilization is a cage for our "true nature"
This is not controversial. Yes, you can depart from the author's intent if you read it a certain way, death of the author and all that, but he was a cynic and his has no explanatory value
A lot of people here disagreeing with you. It's a great read and a read teaching tool imo. Maybe you reread it and have a discussion with someone who sees it differently?
Lord of the Flies has stuck with me since reading it in high school and that was back in 2003-2004. It’s important for students to learn from it. Thank you for what you’re doing.
We are doing a debate unit. Learning the rules of respectful disagreement and backing everything with evidence. We did a “silly” evidence day. Students added in “silly” evidence that didn’t support their claim or reasoning. We did an anchor chart walk where groups spotted the fake evidence.
Y'all still teach this book based on a complete farce in direct confrontation to TRUE story of the marooned boys who ACTUALLY created a generally benevolent commune w/ shared responsibilities & a reasonable division of labor based on ability & were in pretty decent shape when found? Look it up.
Got my coursework scrambled. The REBUKES of Golding were in my Psych and Soc courses refuting the EXAMPLE of "Lord of the Flies" being representative of human nature. The Tongan Ata survivors WERE the refutation of that psych theory. Sorry. Been a long time. LSS "LotF" was bullshite either way.
You're missing the point. The LotF boys came with all their prejudices (hidden under the veneer of civilization) and so were unable to create a working community and it broke down into savagery.
The real life boys from the article came without those. So the real life case can be taught with the book
The point that is missed is that IS NOT what happens in these "stranding" events whether they are British boys on Ata or soccer players in the Andes. "It" "broke down into savagery" in LotF because THAT'S what fecking sells. 6 boys stranded & form a generally successful commune is NOT dramatic.
In sum, LotF is a *direct commentary* on The Coral Island, down to many character names. TCI argues that the world NEEDS the civilizing influence of British imperialism and social hierarchy. Golding's argument is "fuck that, no it very much doesn't, here's why."
Nope. Golding saw MEN perform horrible atrocities. He DEALT w/ his psychological damage by offering warning on cruelty of men. Story was more "approachable" with children & allowed him an avenue of expression that did not directly trigger his PTSD. Golding was DEEPLY DAMAGED by war, that's it.
I can explain to you what condescension is though. Think Golding was whole? Undamaged by WAR? Think he targeted another fictional novel to make a counterpoint? He saw "TCI" was popular & used premise to reach an audience. I mean they're his own words in interviews. He wanted to sell books.
Novel was pure fiction WITHOUT basis in reality that was then used as "statement/example" of sociological & psychological "truth" about human nature for DECADES. Even AFTER multiple similar "desolation disasters" proved "descent into madness and cruelty" NEVER was what transpired in these groups.
It is allegory. It specifically commented on similar stories, like The Coral Island, that glorified British Imperial ideals. LotF tears them apart. It is not meant as an indictment on human nature. It's meant as an indictment on militant indoctrination posing as "civility".
You're literally teaching a kind of "human nature" for which one cannot find a single real demonstrable example. The boys aren't fecking real. Golding used boys because it makes his fictions fit into humans "suspension of disbelief" better than would the War II atrocities he DID witness.
Interview w/William Golding he said he wrote it because he saw atrocities on both sides of WWII. He made it 12 year old boys as he didn’t want sex to be an issue, Just the capacity of humans to do evil. He went on to say, oh we all talk about the Nazis- but I saw what the French Resisters did too.
I will and maybe I’ll remember to come back and check in. I think it’s unnatural to not go check for oneself. Plus adhd, I love looking up stuff. Never remember enough to share all the facts though
Remember the adhd thing earlier? Wasn’t much for frequenting the library. The card catalog overwhelmed me. Aside from that, true story, he is correct. However, the book was 1954 and the the other story(real) was 1966 I think ✌🏼
Got my coursework scrambled. The REBUKES of Golding were in my Psych and Soc courses refuting the EXAMPLE of Lord of the Flies being representative of human nature. The Tongan Ata survivors WERE the refutation of that psych theory. Sorry. Been a long time. LSS "LotF" was bullshite either way.
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Golding was a deeply troubled person. The Nazi sympathizer characterization goes too far. He once said he understood Nazis because he could see himself becoming that. But that has to be understood in the context of his own self-loathing and general disdain for humanity.
He gave his perspective on a situation based on his own emotions. This has been picked up to explain society. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I’m with Bregman on this.
I guess what I'm saying is it's hard to dismiss the cynicism of this book when we JUST had a presidential election between what amounts to a Ralph and a Jack and the Jack won because the people wanted to be protected from a purely imagined threat.
Trump won because of a lack of education and a need for celebrity in the populous. I fail to see any similarity betwix LotF and maga. maga are the product of a deliberate dum down across the western world. Musk is what happens when idiots take drugs.
I don't think it should be used to explain society. But as a satire of The Coral Island - a book that explicitly argues that colonialism & militarism are good for the world - it's a strong warning about misplaced ideas of masculinity & good governance.
I think it’s a good story and probably represents the public school class very well. As a basic example of British society at the time I thinks it’s a story, nothing more. A selfish likely nazi sympathetic author describes his thought process. Rich folk make the history.
I get where you're coming from. And I used to agree. I used to hate the book. But I see it very differently now. You'd probably appreciate the way I teach. I dunno. I'm not saying your perspective is entirely unfounded.
But the point remains that the thesis of Lord of the Flies is quite clear. Bleak? Yes. Cynical? Also yes. But it has something to say about why and how unworthy privileged sociopathic fascists rise to the top, and in our current climate, it's a really urgent portrayal.
We don't compare 🍊 to Jack Merridew like we should. They're the exact same, from the authoritarianism down to the ridiculous face paint. All of his choirboys wear red hats slung low on their heads.
That book is British propaganda, expressing their fears of what the world would look like without their version of law and order. Any anthropologist can tell you examples from hunter gatherer societies that contradict Golding's intuitions.
No it isn't. You either misread it or had a bad teacher. Its point is the exact opposite. Everything goes to hell precisely because Jack is sticking to the lessons of British imperialism, despite Ralph's appeals to basic humanity and reason.
Using how the boys become "a pack of painted n[-words]" as a metaphor for the "savagery" of civilization still reinforces racist, heirarchical ideas about indiginous cultures. Your interpretation is not widely shared- most people came away from reading this book with either with Hobbesian ...
...biases reinforced, or they rejected it outright. I'm glad that if your students have to read it, at least they'll have you as a teacher, so they'll hear a different perspective on it and also learn about the boys marooned on 'Ata in real life.
Democratic leaders must stop bringing pillows to a knife fight. Do not compromise, find common ground, or reach across the aisle. Bipartisanship doesn't work with fascists. Fight them as hard as you can. Sign the petition.
Full statement here: https://www.change.org/WeThePeople-DemandActionNow
My high-school English 11 and 12 also studied A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, several Kurt Vonnegut, Homer and the poetry of TS Eliot back in the 1970's. Their words and lessons still resonate. I hope these are still in curriculums.
Are you familiar with a true (Lord of the Flies) story that happened off the coast of Australia in the 1960s? Boys stranded on an island for 9 months (in my memory) and they survive because they worked together.
I would have done "The Crucible" since the flippant, glib, misapplication of the term "witch" is the perfect parallel to the brandishing of Nazi/Fascist/insurrectionist (and the return to sanity in both cases) seems more apropos to today's America.
One of my go to works for illustration, too
Thomas Paine describes a newly found world and illustrates the travails of societal stability - in just 6 paragraphs in 'Common Sense'.
Lord of the Flies is what happens when Paine's advice is not heeded
I teach biology and zoology, and I’m considering writing a unit with the anchoring phenomenon being “How does our immune system work?” and actually teach students why vaccines and other preventative measures are good. We have to teach our way out of this mess.
I hated Lord of the Flies when we were made to read it at school in the 90s
But on reflection, from an adult perspective, that's probably because I was regularly getting the s**t kicked out of me at school for being 'weird' and a 'loser' (aka: autistic)
After my 25 year public middle school teaching career, I can say, without hesitation, that Lord of the Flies does not belong in the fiction section of the library...
Fighting the good fight in the classroom. I 'm a sub but the other day was so stoked when a 1st grader came up to me and told me why MLK was important. I had no idea who MLK when I was in 1st grade. (1981)
I taught it this year and ended on Nov 1. Then we did Night, ending this week. Next is F451. My students can vote in the next election. Lots of teachable moments lately. They are definitely paying attention.
I've said before here, the irony is that it's likely one of the last books to be banned in a theoretical purge because MOST people believe never even understand its antifascist angle.
This happened after LotF was written. I talk about this in my class as well, in order to emphasize the point that Golding's work is not a "what-if" scenario about "human nature" but a critique of colonial and imperial ideals of masculinity and governance.
I think that is right. I think ‘fear’ and ‘anger’ are two primal emotions…essential to survival…which bypass slow rational thinking. But they can be triggered with modern propaganda. And sadly, it seems to work.
My Mom and spouse were both teachers. Thank you for what you do.
I'm just hitting 50 now. My English teacher, my favourite teacher, ran a production of Lord Of The Flies in 5th year (we do 6). That kinda hit home. I went to a small but private school. Cheap but "fancy". Not the thing my parents could really afford. I still remember that though.
Good choice. Goldman is not technically a dystopian author, but I think all the dystopians should be front and center now, as well as Kafka, to help understand the complete absurdity of our situation as well as the terror.
Hope you also teach "Animal Farm", "1984", "Fahrenheit 451", "Clockwork Orange" as well.
Thank you for teaching. I'm grateful for my childhood teachers, way back in the '70s.
I have to ask (as an Australian) what does your next 4 years "really" look like under the Trump regime. What do most Americans fear and will the damage be irreparable?
There is a march to the right in many countries will the US march to the right escalate that march
It’s looking like we finally have a president who can speak and act without a script. It’s both refreshing and also alarming that for the last 4 years we had no leadership to speak of. We needed a leader and we now have one!
I wanted a coherent answer my friend and assumed incorrectly you were being funny. BUT...in fairness if that's what you actually believe then of course I'll respect your opinion.
Thank you, it’s an honest opinion. I spent time in Italy last summer and met people from all over the world. Every one of them were extremely interested in American politics. Being an American it was interesting to see that other countries peoples were watching our political system.
I just had a hysterectomy. I was afraid I'd lose access to the medication that helps me be well enough to function semi-normally. It happens to be the same one trans youth can take to delay puberty in order to make the best choices for themselves without the pressure of time weighting on them. This
was the only guaranteed way for me to be ok. I had it on November 5th. It was approved and done in record time so I would be ok before the election and change in office. I woke up and asked "did we win?" and one of the nurses had to walk away, very obvious tears in her eyes. We are afraid.
MOST of my friends work in healthcare, mental health, and with people who require extra assistance to survive. They are terrified. I am the primary caretaker for my gma, she has dementia. I worry we will lose assistance. With ICE abt to make internment camps, we won't be able to afford groceries.
My friend how did the States get to be such a cluster fuck. In Australia the majority of us sat watching your election thinking absolutely no way that clown could be elected. I mean internationally he is a source of ridicule yet he wins..how can something so ridiculous happen!
The Silent Majority. Hearts full of hatred and nationalism. Without access to education, travel, culture, everything that makes a person well-rounded. They stay in their comfort zones. Their father's father's father was born in that house and they'll die in that house, too. It's sick. PLUS, these
Here's a good place to start if you're curious - recorded right after the election and most of my thoughts on this haven't changed much (but yes, very concerned that the country will never, ever recover, in the sense that I think it's more likely than not it won't)
Man, are you guys actually frightened how it's gonna turn out? Cos where we sit it looks like a shit show about to commence. We're coming over to New Orleans in April? Cancel my flight???? Lol
No. Come. You'll be fine. But yes, extremely frightened. We have a vindictive sociopathic idiot who has been granted immunity from the law by the Supreme Court and is allowing a Christian fascist government to take over. It's very bad. I don't think the international press can grasp it.
OK. For now we'll still visit...(fingers crossed) and will listen to the podcast.!
The concern we have on this side of the world is the now questionable information comming out of the US. The influence of information by Musk and Co.. you know what's real and what's fabricated.
Did you know that Musk attended a special school based on the "Lord of the Flies" way of life? Boys were taught to steal rations from other boys and to bully to get their way.
Follow it up with Fahrenheit 451. Then 1984. And finally Night. Just so the kids get the dystopian reality their parents gifted them through their vote.
Good idea. Who knows what will happen over the next year. When I was in high school back in the 2000s, that was one of only a few books I can honestly say truly impacted me.
I teach at a private school and, as chair, set the curriculum. So there would have to be a literal national bad on the book (which would hit some 1A issues...).
Either way, I think, ironically, because most people get this book ALL WRONG, it's probably safe from banning
So, you're exposing your students to a book detailing the "virtues" of the current political climate. Hope the police don't raid your class and burn those horrible books!
It's no wonder white male politicians are freaking out about their masculinity. The only balls we've witnessed in Washington DC this week have come from a few good women, i.e., most notably, Tammy Duckworth, AOC, Lisa Murkowski, Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde, Honorable Tanya Chutkan, for starters.
my son has been doing Lord of the flies for a little bit. I did Lord of the flies when I was in school back in the 90s, so it’s cool that they still do this book.
So many books that could fill the role of exploring other aspects of the direction of the US>
Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad, The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, 1984, George Orwell and Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
I don't know where John teaches, so I can understand the "helicopter parenting".It also demonstrates the differences in teaching around the world. In the UK there are two types of parents: ones who don't care and those that want their children to be exposed to as much as possible to widen horizons.
I'm in the US, I would never recommend a public school teacher teach Handmaid. Conrad is a good choice, but the language is more advanced, 1984 is generally "too long" for a classroom read. Clockwork has too many triggers for a general class.
I was a DC and I had to defend teaching Huck Finn.
Comments
A small group of teens who were already friends spending a week fishing is not the same as dozens or hundreds of children who don't know each other, for example.
You can't say "Animal Farm was disproven because of this real-world incident where farm animals were left alone for a week."
Damn. You nailed it.
All you need to prove the point is the last ten years of MAGA.
By the time we get to LotF we have already discussed toxic masculinity at length with Jason Reynolds' "Long Way Down"
There's kids around my place chatting all the time, I hear lots of their conversations.
The kids these days are in fact alright.
Optimistic for 3, which they took much (much) longer to make.
So results will be the same.
Do we have a true man or woman who can intervene and stop the madness of the boys?
To Kill a Mockingbird is also relevant
This is not controversial. Yes, you can depart from the author's intent if you read it a certain way, death of the author and all that, but he was a cynic and his has no explanatory value
I understand that people think it's good, and I disagree.
IMHO
Doc
The real life boys from the article came without those. So the real life case can be taught with the book
That's it. Ralph is Golding's real vision of humanity.
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Except for that last part.
Teachers have always been in the fight against the -isms & -obias folks bring into our classrooms!
Carry on!
https://thebeautifultruth.org/life/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months/
The legal system cannot protect us from Trump.
Only an educated electorate can save us.
That’s the one thing Trump cannot afford.
👏👏👏
💙✌️
We should start referring to Trump as #LordOfThePies, don’t you think?
Full statement here:
https://www.change.org/WeThePeople-DemandActionNow
That’s just good business sense.
https://www.newsweek.com/real-lord-flies-true-story-boys-island-william-golding-humankind-human-nature-rutger-bregman-1503204
https://dianeravitch.net/2025/01/20/timothy-w-ryback-how-hitler-destroyed-democracy-in-germany-in-53-days/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR28fwfp85x4A2QooXkb1rvgPkpfoq-Sami_VIH8AxU3bqqQTRUWG1sJTPU_aem_Y-y5vAxf0Xq_XDWfr3HSqg
Thomas Paine describes a newly found world and illustrates the travails of societal stability - in just 6 paragraphs in 'Common Sense'.
Lord of the Flies is what happens when Paine's advice is not heeded
❤️👍
But on reflection, from an adult perspective, that's probably because I was regularly getting the s**t kicked out of me at school for being 'weird' and a 'loser' (aka: autistic)
So I was living what the book was saying. 🤷♂️
autism is DEFINITELY a spectrum.
But I didn't understand the book at the time. The message wasn't communicated & I couldn't figure it on my own. Didn't have the skills.
All I read was my own crappy life coming back at me like "this is how it is"
i "understood," animal farm, but i didn't know anything about the soviet union so i thought it was about some random dictator.
reading LOTF in 12th gave me the desire to watch both versions of the movie.
Being British we did Shakespeare, and every Brit schoolkid hates Shakespeare. 🥺
I think the only high-school book that's stayed with me is "To kill a mockingbird."
To this day Atticus Finch is a profound influence.
all of my classmates hated it, but I'm thankful I had English teacher's with good taste
(The existing fat & bespectacled status came later for me, so I may NOW be Piggy.)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shipwreck-deserted-island-south-pacific-survivors-60-minutes-2021-07-18/#:~:text=Like%20millions%20of%20others%2C%20Bregman,stranded%20on%20an%20uninhabited%20island.
Question in my mind is why does propaganda work on the human brain? What makes us so persuadable?
My Mom and spouse were both teachers. Thank you for what you do.
New assignment for your students
Thank you for teaching. I'm grateful for my childhood teachers, way back in the '70s.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
But your point is a good one. It's complex. But at 46, I'm still reading Butler's complete works and learning. 😊
There is a march to the right in many countries will the US march to the right escalate that march
The concern we have on this side of the world is the now questionable information comming out of the US. The influence of information by Musk and Co.. you know what's real and what's fabricated.
Their father's hell did slowly go by
Feed them on your dreams
The one they pick's the one you'll know by
Watch out for the parents. There's always that one...
What are things coming too...
😉
The Chinese cultural revolution is a good candidate too
Also Lorenzetti had this on lock.. in the 14th century
KILL THE PIG, CUT HIS THROAT, SPILL HIS BLOOD.
Really good life lessons too. We need to learn this shit more than ever.
Follow up with a unit on 1984.
I teach at a private school and, as chair, set the curriculum. So there would have to be a literal national bad on the book (which would hit some 1A issues...).
Either way, I think, ironically, because most people get this book ALL WRONG, it's probably safe from banning
Forewarned is forearmed.
Teaching kids empathy is underrated these days
than ever! 💙
Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad, The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, 1984, George Orwell and Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
I was a DC and I had to defend teaching Huck Finn.
I will have to put it one my books I need to get list.