You can always tell the actual Catholics from the cosplayers, who insist that Pope Frank is less learned on the Bible than they are. I just tell the cosplayers to go to confession and talk to their priest, with different words, over and over, and they get so mad.
Well, didn’t he say before the election that we needed to choose between the lesser of two evils, giving the green light for Catholics to vote for the 🍊💩? I lost my respect for him at that point.
this absolutely doesn't apply to countries where Catholicism is dominant and default
Polish Catholics don't give a fuck about the poor unless it's for PR reasons, but they are very eager to force minors to bear children, pray the gay away, and praise border patrols for pushing back refugees
I can see JD's reaction now.
"Pope? More like dope. Am I right, honey? Am I right?" https://youtu.be/Ojb5pEGkYPA?t=7m
"Yeah, it's okay. I know I'm right."
I was raised Catholic and I can attest to this. This reminds me of my anti-zionist Jewish friend telling me that every Jewish convert she knows is a Zionist
there's a sense of responsibility to "prove oneself" when converting to a new religion, and adopting harder line beliefs than the median member of that group is a good way to do that.
case in point, i can corroborate your friend's story with a story from a friend of mine lol
he joined a group for queer jews and immediately felt ostracized as the only person who wasn't a fervent zionist. and what stuck with him was that the person who WAS the most fervent and had the worst shit to say about palestinians was a pretty recent convert. my friend, btw, was raised orthodox
This kinda seems like the dynamic in every religion, tbh. Like, a weirdly disproportionate percentage of Islamist suicide bombers were raised in secular homes, in western countries. Fundamentalist terrorist recruitment was their first real engagement with Islam.
Not even just religions. Anything you can adopt later in life as a viewpoint or group identifier, the converts have more zeal because it’s fresher and newer.
Long ago, a priest/prof at the Catholic college my fam attended for generations asked how many kids one of my uncles had now. I said "six, no seven." He smiled grimly and said, "His wife's a convert you know. From Vic (neighboring Unitarian college)."
It’s a lot harder to be a fundamentalist when you grew up in a living faith community, with bake sales and kids who don’t want to go to youth group and people who disagree with each other on doctrine. Not impossible, but harder.
You’re right and so many miss this fact. Delusions of grandeur have people mistaking themselves for theologians. 99% of us are just parishioners. Hymns and mutual aid >>>> nonsense debates about angels on the head of a pin.
Many grow up fundy and end up saying get me the hell out of here. The outsiders who join because they're attracted to the cruelty are the very worst people.
one of the reasons people in the field said it was better for people of whatever faith (they were speaking of Muslim immigrants to England) to join their organized faith community rather than try to ignore that part of their lives, so their kids have an anchor and sense of community and identity
Nah, thoroughly different dynamic, and nowhere near all gerim ("converts" isn't really a great word for people who've joined the Jewish People) are Zionists, either.
True - I’m an anti-Zionist and technically a convert (my dad is Jewish, my mom wasn’t so I did an official conversion eventually). But I grew up in a mostly Jewish community (more secular than religious though). It all depends on why you convert & which community you’re in.
I was raised Catholic, don’t agree with the Vatican on much but this current Pope does genuinely care for the poor and vulnerable. That pisses of the Catholic elite right wingers especially in the USA.
This pope really doesn’t thought. He hasn’t turned over any of the priests who hurt or abuse kids. But yay! He’s good at making speeches! Oh and he canonized a genocidal maniac.
Thinking about my old yoga teacher, a Catholic nun from a self-described feminist convent who went on aid trips to Palestine (her choice of name for the destination)
As a queer person I definitely have some very complicated feelings about the role the church plays in a lot of conservative talking points and the evil committed by them in the past. It can be a lot to balance and something I am continually working on
Interesting. I was also raised lutheran but walked away when I had to do homework for confirmation. (I had a bit of a defiant streak) I think theres some good teachings in there like care for your fellow man etc etc but yeah I can imagine its complicated as a queer person. Stay safe, thanks for resp
I was raised Lutheran, so Catholic-lite, in a church that had a lot of reverence for Mary. The more I read about radical Catholics and the base teachings of care and equity the more I vibed w it. There is definitely a lot of complicated history, and more to it than I can reasonably put in a reply-
I had religious OCD and joined the church for my anxiety. I never believed in enforcing religion on others, even my children. When I saw the church and congregation being hateful, I saw it as a mission to push against that.
Ultimately, I realized I couldn't change them, and parted ways.
I was also becoming a worse person myself for it, and decided to take a path to fix myself. That meant leaving behind terrible people -- it meant leaving the church among other things.
I know we’re rare but some of us converted because of the helping the poor stuff!! (Well and because Baptist theology is truly like 85% about fear and Hell).
My mom converted to Catholicism because she was brought up in fire and brimstone Scottish presbyterianism and the Catholics just seemed to be kinder and more…chill.
The headmaster of my old school was a convert and, wouldn’t you know it, viscerally and personally hated me for being out and queer in a way absolutely no other headmaster ever did. Literally brought me up in meetings as an example of what was “giving the school a bad name”.
i'm sure nowhere in their time there did they think "hm maybe me, as headmaster, shit talking any of the students at this school in meetings is actually whats giving this school a bad name"
that sure is a person i want nowhere near the education system 😬
Also though -- even the Catholic magazines Catholics tend to keep on the back of the toilet are shockingly different between the North and the South. Completely different.
I've always thought of it as dancing to music that everyone hears but each sect creates their own dance steps to differentiate themselves from every other sect that listens to the same song.
2/2
And then you have the guys who no longer seem to even hear the music because they spend their whole time watching to see if anyone is making the wrong dance step no matter how in sync that person is with the music
but I am going to borrow your explanation - the joining the club - perfect
there's a classic rick santorum interview where he says 'the pope should leave science to the scientists' and the interviewer is like 'he trained as a chemist you know'
(santorum leaves in a huff, calling the interviewer a bigot on the way out)
So many adult Christian converts seem to be about getting in on that "accept me as your savior, I will cleanse you of your sin to admit you into heaven" deal that I'm not even 100% certain Jesus made...
but they seem convinced it's loophole to getting away with doing whatever they want until they eventually repent on their deathbed after leaving a lifetime of damage in their wake.
Sorry to interrupt. He is a sedevancatist. A fringe pseudo-catholic group that proclaims that no Pope is valid from 1958 on. In other words, he is just a nut.
Yeah, people love that meme bc it *is* funny, but I've known enough Catholics IRL that are hardcore, misanthropic reactionaries to dispel this raised Catholic/adult convert distinction. (I will grant that, percentage-wise, adult converts seem to be worse.)
It’s also got some historical significance. Catholics were a solidly progressive voting block until the issue of abortion was used by who else than white supremacist groups to help create a solid Republican voting block of a great portion of Christians. Propaganda ensued from that point
I agree that Catholics' political alignments have varied over the centuries, in various contexts and political climates, but I wouldn't go quite so far as to identify their history as a reliable "progressive" bloc. For every Dorothy Day, there's a Father Coughlin.
Yeah, I think progressive was the wrong word to use. And this is also basically all a 20th century phenomenon that I know about. I know nothing of Catholics politics in the 19th century past probably being like “hey guys we are white Christians too you don’t have to oppress us” lolll
I was going to say I don't know that they're worse, just that they have greater (and laughable) pretensions to erudition. But OTOH, someone once pointed out that joining the RCC after all the CSA revelations looked like 4chan-style vice signaling.
Except that I don't think he is, I thought I had read that he is part of an uber-conservative offshoot of the Catholic church that is not associated with Roman Catholicism.
Although frankly this is maybe an overly-charitable read of Vance vis a vis his grasp of theology. I honestly get the impression the man hasn't really done any homework on that front, Opus Dei-approved or otherwise
Could Paula White do the job? At least she would bring a few innovative habits to the Holy See of the Mar-a-Lago papacy. No vow of chastity or poverty anymore, for one, obedience being what counts. And new ideas for fundraising.
Avignon 2.0 in Houston keeps seeming like a thing that might happen but I keep saying they don't have the balls. They'd get all the "evangelical in Latin" tradcath aesthetic convert freaks and lose all the ethnic families who've been wheeling Grandma from hospice to mass every Sunday since 1989.
My only objection to this is that I think it will be Miami and that’s only cause I was born in Houston and continue to have a fondness for my home city 😁
And I feel weird that he converted as an adult without a spouse that was already Catholic. I just think he won't have the mindset and won't have a relationship with someone that does have the mindset - what is even the point?
As an adult covert of an Catholic wife from a devout Catholic family it feels like JD Vance skipped catechism and just showed up on Easter to get partial credit.
My wife’s grandma uses my conversion as a way to guilt trip her other grandchildren’s dating choices. JD really isn’t about that Catholic life if he’s never had to deal with something like that.
Saw someone recently saying that the story of the Good Samaritan was meant to be an impossible ideal that no person can achieve on this earth, so I expect it’s a mix of the two.
Baptists are like this, too. Don’t get me wrong, they’re all bad but every adult convert I ever met acted like they were one missed prayer away from eating the faces of everyone in the room
Crazy to think that 20 years ago I had thought about converting because all of the Catholics I knew were like "I know what's in the Bible and try to live by it but you do you, I'm not God's cop and I've got my own sins besides" while all the protestants I'd grown up with were losing their minds
I grew up in a protestant church where everyone had this attitude like, "we're doing our best to follow Jesus' teachings, we're going to say 'live and let live' and work on ourselves" but I moved away and it quickly became clear that, at least where I moved to, most protestants are not like that.
Anyway, that was the moment where I went from going to church every Sunday to thinking, "this religion stuff is clearly not for me." Teaching people that it's okay to exclude, disparage or otherwise mistreat others because they don't live as I do is offensive to me in a way that I feel in my bones.
And you actually look up that babble of nonsense and it's another agreement where they all came together to finger wag at the priests who got caught touching kids before parish shuffling them again. Gee I wonder why Christians keep hand waving away that common occurrence.
Pope should also be following the destruction of USAID, the food and medicine being denied to people to whom it had been promised by the Congress of the United States.
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Trying to play doctrine lawyer against the institution of the Catholic Church, who believe what they believe based on the commentaries of multiple generations of people who are much smarter than them and can actually read the original language, is extremely Protestant coded.
I have noticed that some of the converts to the Anabaptist denomination here in the States have twisted the Amish/Mennonite tenets into something those born & raised in the denomination would not recognize
Nope! My MAGA relatives (raised during the time of Latin language Masses) blow that theory to pieces. But the converts do know how to weapon ice the theological terms better.
As a non-Xtian I do recall the story of the Good Samaritan, but apparently Xtians in the US think that kind of thing is woke or something. If you people want to talk the talk, walking the fucking walk.
My fiercely catholic aunt said she doesn't care what her priest says about trans people. She's happy for her trans friends because they seem happy and it doesn't really seem like it's any of her business. Feels like the "adult converts" want that Putin/Russian Orthodox Church dynamic to happen.
Comments
Polish Catholics don't give a fuck about the poor unless it's for PR reasons, but they are very eager to force minors to bear children, pray the gay away, and praise border patrols for pushing back refugees
That tracks.
Except adults converting for marriage, they were generally pretty chill.
"Pope? More like dope. Am I right, honey? Am I right?"
https://youtu.be/Ojb5pEGkYPA?t=7m
"Yeah, it's okay. I know I'm right."
case in point, i can corroborate your friend's story with a story from a friend of mine lol
I'm just an American boy
Raised on MTV . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7zGbsDJs0s
Then I read that the Catholic Nuns like Caterpillar, cause bulldozers help create farms to feed people in Africa
the world is complex
Ultimately, I realized I couldn't change them, and parted ways.
that sure is a person i want nowhere near the education system 😬
bingo!! Excellent analogy
I've always thought of it as dancing to music that everyone hears but each sect creates their own dance steps to differentiate themselves from every other sect that listens to the same song.
And then you have the guys who no longer seem to even hear the music because they spend their whole time watching to see if anyone is making the wrong dance step no matter how in sync that person is with the music
but I am going to borrow your explanation - the joining the club - perfect
(santorum leaves in a huff, calling the interviewer a bigot on the way out)
SCHI-SM, SCHI-SM, SCHI-SM!!!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada
Is he.
Mel Gibson.
(Committed adultery in her first marriage, then married a member of Journey and proceeded to embezzle funds from the band).
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-enrages-christian-maga-naming-224833273.html
Hooboy Scott do I have some breaking news for you
😡If you’re scared, rise up!
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Together we win.
¡Unidos Ganamos!
#buildtheresistance
@mobilize.us
Run by Catholics 2024: "Critics Slam Al Smith Dinner For Normalizing Trump" https://youtu.be/b4oTQNrd6po?si=dm_1SpSheEy_437p
The Pope can fuck all the way off, Catholics supporting Nazis. https://www.timesofisrael.com/german-bishops-said-to-admit-complicity-in-nazi-actions-in-new-report/
Because if the answer is 'none', that's a deal breaker.
These guys won't, because for them the cruelty is everything.
“Both [Tramp & Harris] are against life, be it the one who kicks out migrants or the one who killing babies,” Pope Francis
Love God
Those 2. It’s not complicated.
I have noticed that some of the converts to the Anabaptist denomination here in the States have twisted the Amish/Mennonite tenets into something those born & raised in the denomination would not recognize
something for people of all faiths to be aware of
Vance: furiously searching the small print for loopholes.
JD: um, AKSHULLY…
Later…
The Son of Man in all his glory and with all his angels: Whatever you did not do for the least of these-
JD: Least in order of preference, right, so not just like “some guy”, right?