White Christian Nationalists will have the final word on all things related to regulations. Samuel Alito's opinion is now more important than some guy with a PhD who has conducted studies regarding the effectiveness of vaccines, He's a nobody now.
Toni Morrison's 1975 lecture on racism as a form of distraction comes to mind. "None of this is necessary," as she said, but the arrogant, pro-disease crowd aren't ever going to take "no" for an answer.
To understand what this feels like, try discussing anything related to these topics with someone in your family who believes them. If you love them, you'll spend hours at it, come away having made zero progress with them, and feel mentally and emotionally drained. You'll never want to do it again.
A successfully achieved goal of bad actors deploying Soviet era-originated dezinformatsiya/active measures tactics against democratically-aligned (typically Western) political systems and open societies. Literal hyperactivation of the system's open discussion infrastructure against itself.
I watched the O'Keefe season in horror as we were seeing it begin to play out in real time with bad actors like Alex Jones, Scrofula Bannon, et al. (Credit to Alex Gansa, et al. who obviously modeled O'Keefe, in part, on those real life avatars of political/social destruction.)
O'Keefe's voice was so much like Jones's, afaicr. My wife and I binged that show hard, and that is one of the few that I would go to again. We would watch 3-4 episodes on a weekend night till 2 or 3 AM. Looking at each other, asking, "another?" and both answering "YES!"
2/2 That’s why, going on 4 years and 200M Americans getting an mRNA Covid vax, people pretend that their questions haven’t been answered and are still “debate me bro”
1) it also emboldens the people who ‘do their own research’ who do not/will not/cannot distinguish between peer reviewed empirical research and ‘I googled it’. 2) these debates require more than just facts to win - you have to prepare with some style, too. Hopefully that gets done, but I have doubts
People call the fire hose of obscure BS that comes from conspiracy theorists the gish gallop. Since you can't refute it all, they often feel that they are more educated on a subject than you are which is a major reason they don't change their minds. This bot addresses that https://www.debunkbot.com
The Trump cult has been trained to distrust scientists and doctors—and even the deaths of more than a million true believers from a mismanaged pandemic hasn't shaken their faith.
Every public debate is like this now - we constantly relitigate everything from basic biology to whether the Earth is round to how US immigration works. Unfortunately, constantly shifting the foundation of facts seems like a bad way to support a civilization.
This may be a good moment to repeat the credo of Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."
The facts are that vaccines are incredibly safe and very effective, and that their widespread use has all but eradicated previous childhood scourges.
Why do "we" keep letting "them" decide what the conversation must be?
I have zero interest in debating vaccines. They work. We all benefit. The most selfish among us are the ones screaming the loudest. They don't particularly care what happens to anyone else. imho That's the biggest problem.
Not unlike how women are now forced to re-litigate reproductive choice. This is how the far right works. They push back progress & force us to debate the same debates & fight the same fights over & over again. It's so demoralizing. And one side "debates" in bad faith, so it's also profoundly stupid.
People talk a lot about ideas/debates that shld remain in academia but spill out into public debate.
Well, the "are vaccines bad for you" debate is one that should go the opposite way. Have this in academia, earnestly, among trained experts in biology, epidemiology and medicine. Then get back to us
I agree. But I'm saying that if they want to re-open that debate, the place to do it is not in the mainstream media. It's somewhere that trained professionals can examine the ideas and facts outside of politics and outside of the yell-o-sphere where you get paid for being the loudest voice on TV.
Figures like Pakman, Sam Seder, Destiny, and Hasan “debate” the far right manosphere disinformers almost every day. It has continued the Trump/Putin phenomenon of a world where fact is a matter of opinion.
1/ honestly, I don't think progressives should engage in the "vaccine" debate, because it distracts from other issues.
Vaccines are a great FAFO instance -- the parents who are too stupid to vaccinate their kids will be "finding out" soon enough. And while it sucks that the kids will suffer,
2/ its pretty much a given in America that parents can make tons of decisions that are harmful to their kids without suffering any legal consequences. so why should vaccines be any different?
It’s vital to add that the researcher was stripped of his medical license because it was discovered that he faked his results. Also, my son is autistic. He was born pre-MMR & then it was claimed that the DPT shot caused autism. They don’t care which vaccine causes autism, just 1 must.
And it doesn't help. 99% of people are not epidemiologists or biologists or medical doctors.
I don't understand the complex science behind vaccines (which is fine, it's not my job). The bizarre American belief that experts aren't actually EXPERT in their field is very strange.
True and it continues, or maybe begins, with education. Parents are the least likely to comprehend how best to educate children, their only qualification was to have egg and sperm present. They demand a say. Educators have qualifications and are expert, yet we ignore them as parental rights rule?
We also pretend that home schooling is OK. It's not.
Sure, some highly motivated parents may be good teachers, but do they have the training? Mostly not. So kids finish school and may have no idea what's going on.
In a Pew study, 29% of Americans had low science knowledge, 32% medium science knowledge. Hard to have discussions regarding public health best practice when 2/3’s of country don’t understand basic science. Instead of trusting ppl w expertise, Americans are more inclined to trust Google or Reddit.
My daughter, a pediatrician, encounters this kind of parents so often. They claim they saw it on SNS and they should see that kinds of treatments. Now SNS has more authority than medical professionals. I wonder why they come to see doctors if they can diagnose and treat themselves.
My son, an internist, struggles as well. An example, a 40ish man w stroke questions use of statins to prevent future stokes. His justification for not taking was FB group. Why he even bothers to make appts is beyond me. Troubled times.
Look. Just let people stop taking them. it’s a troll. The only way to deal with the troll is to let the anti-vaxxers get paralytic polio. Let them get whooping cough. Let their child lose their fertility via mumps.
If it takes a couple of years before Americans start dying in large numbers as a result of previously rare contagious diseases, nobody's going to remember that it didn't used to be that way. This is how it works. Americans today don't have any memory of 40 years ago, let alone farther back
Yes. To many of the business elite the vaccine debate is greatly preferable to instead opening a renewed discussion about other issues like the health care system or money in politics.
It's really fucking aggravating to have to waste time listening to the stupidest person in class for the entire time because they won't shut the fuck up and nobody gives them the boot meaning nobody gets what they paid for: the professor's time and insights.
I don't know how you're going to do it, especially as medical professionalism heads for the drain, but you must have a test of merit, before comments are allowed. We already failed on this with evolution and climate change, so feel free to cut my voice from the actual conversation, just do it.
What proof are those against vaccines going to bring I wonder? Their self righteous ignorance perhaps, that any debate on the veracity of scientific evidence should be considered is absolutely absurd. The malign influence of those promoting this are beyond belief.
When vaccine and science deniers get a vaccine preventable illness and are having difficulty breathing, they come to the hospital and suddenly want all the science they can get.
Frankly, I fully support the addition of an exemption in law and the Hippocratic Oath for science deniers who come to regret the consequences of their stupid choices.
Someone spent time to generate that graph means tons of wasted time for zero benefit. Those that knew this already don't need it. Those that don't (through either willful stupidity or malicious willful ignorance) won't benefit from it.
Comments
Press:
"Document. Debate. Document. Debate. Document. Debate. Document. Debate. Document. Debate. Document. Debate. Document. Debate. Document. Debate."
"Democrats are trying to re-litigate the climate debate -- but do Americans care more about climate, or the economy?"
Other species.
It's like none of them watched Homeland. Or they rooted for Brett O'Keefe.
Can we move past the 100+ year old theories and enter the 21st century
IE “just asking questions” and back and forth gets paid audiences. Acknowledging answers only means there’s no content for tomorrow. 1/2
The persuasion has already occurred by the time any debate begins.
The rational world: "No, you're just telling me that you don't want to learn new facts."
Elections have consequences, and they are the most likely to reap the whirlwind by avoiding vaccines and dying to disease.
However, I pity those who are unable to be vaccinated due to a condition.
The Trump cult has been trained to distrust scientists and doctors—and even the deaths of more than a million true believers from a mismanaged pandemic hasn't shaken their faith.
A++
That we'll have to "Joe Rogan" every already resolved dumbass fact like it's an opinion, is also smart.
I feel like everything Trump does is a massive opportunity cost
The facts are that vaccines are incredibly safe and very effective, and that their widespread use has all but eradicated previous childhood scourges.
#6'Elon
I have zero interest in debating vaccines. They work. We all benefit. The most selfish among us are the ones screaming the loudest. They don't particularly care what happens to anyone else. imho That's the biggest problem.
So there will always be a need for people who will fight to preserve it.
Each generation faces it's own unique version of that battle, but it's through the cumulative efforts of individuals like you, that progress endures.
Chin up.
Well, the "are vaccines bad for you" debate is one that should go the opposite way. Have this in academia, earnestly, among trained experts in biology, epidemiology and medicine. Then get back to us
It's not a debate when somebody insists their belief has equal validity to facts.
Health Insurer: Request DENIED!
Have you considered an alternative platform that doesn’t help LibsOfTikTok??
Vaccines are a great FAFO instance -- the parents who are too stupid to vaccinate their kids will be "finding out" soon enough. And while it sucks that the kids will suffer,
If I knew who gave my kids measles, and they were unvaccinated, I'd sue them personally.
Anti-vax debate?
I don't understand the complex science behind vaccines (which is fine, it's not my job). The bizarre American belief that experts aren't actually EXPERT in their field is very strange.
We also pretend that home schooling is OK. It's not.
Sure, some highly motivated parents may be good teachers, but do they have the training? Mostly not. So kids finish school and may have no idea what's going on.
Just because you can't understand a basic graph doesn't make it fake
DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH
Or.. since you hate vaccines, move go a third world country that can't or won't administer them
Someone spent time to generate that graph means tons of wasted time for zero benefit. Those that knew this already don't need it. Those that don't (through either willful stupidity or malicious willful ignorance) won't benefit from it.
That's a cost.