I'm not mad at people focusing on the Nazi salute and I don't want to concern shame people focusing on the Nazi salute but... just for me, I think NAZI POLICIES are more despicable than Nazi hand gestures.
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The salute is the psychological warfare and test. Make no mistake, the material is important, but the psychological is how any of this has come to be and also the psychological is how it stands any chance of being overthrown.
Countdown to more Nazi rallies in Orlando on 3,2,1...
this will empower them even more. It's a bat signal of support. A calling.
And for those saying there are more important things going on? It's all important and we can multi-task.
Fascism is an ideology of aesthetic—surely you know this. There is no "policy," just vibes. If people will defend the iconography of fascism, they will defend everything else.
The fact that Elon has bought his way into leadership, that is textbook fascism. His views on paternity are fascism.
It's a kind of beautiful test. If someone is saying that what the AFD-supporting, eugenist, ethnostate-raised billionaire did *TWICE in a row* was not necessarily a Seig Heil, then they will quibble us all the way from 1933 Germany to 1939 Germany and beyond.
We have tried arguing that for years unfortunately. A Nazi salute is about as explicit as it gets to convince who don’t want to see it. Ultimately though, it’s a club to use against legacy media because it is that clear.
I think there's more to it than that: not all policies are equally despicable. Nazi ideology borrowed from Jim Crow ideology, but a /lot/ of people would be far less alarmed by a resurgence of Jim Crow ideology than by a resurgence of Nazi ideology...
Both evil, but everyone knows that in 4+ years Nazis murdered a lot of people - 6 million! - just because. I don't know how many people Jim Crow killed over 3 centuries, but surely far fewer. There are multiple measures of evil, but the Nazis were uniquely bad... which is why Sieg Heil matters.
We've been warned a couple times now to move past the "shock and awe" quickly, as it could be a distraction... yet this nazi salute has been regurgitated over and over again. Its like we know he's a fucking nazi, lets move on... IMHO.
We’ve spent 8 years clutching our pearls over the extreme things he and his cult followers do and say. And it hasn’t made one bit of difference. Of course we should denounce it but it can’t be the focus of our public conversation.
True, but maybe it’s time we do more than clutch pearls.
What’s there to discuss? It’s day 1 and they’re already acting without a conversation. What is happening now is them testing the waters and it will get worse if we don’t push back! It is our duty to stand and denounce it in its entirety.
Yes!!
The absolutist "anything our side does is ok" and "anything they do is bad" is so blatant. It appeals to dumbasses who cling to "their" sports team come hell or high water. "Bad call! Our guy did not try to take their guys head off! Bad call! Our guy was safe by a mile!" "Bad call! Bad call!"
There are bad calls. This is not a policy argument. Never has been. This is an argument about white fear and grievance. Trump and his base understand this. Too many Democrats seem not to. It wasn’t about inflation or the cost of eggs.
If I may add, I think many are recognizing the NAZI component now in our government for the first time. As General Mark Milley stated, Trump was "fascist to the core", but perhaps we simply weren't so cognizant of its' presence. Seeing that particular gesture from Elon Musk, Trump's Co-President,
set off everyone's "spidey-sense". There is no room for Fascism or Nazism in our government. We must act, and not just 're-act'. We must insist on FACTS, not FICTION, and TRUTH, NOT LIES from our elected officials, and we need our Legislative Reps., Senators and Govs. to DO THEIR DAMN JOBS!
There is going to be a lot of smoke with this administration and it will be very hard to focus on any one thing, but the overwhelming hypocrisy on display of calling the left “radical, socialist, marxists” and then Nazi saluting behind the presidential seal….😡
#TodaysGOP
The absolutely bonkers thing about it is that the people freaking out over the Nazi salute are the ones also screaming at us to not get distracted or overwhelmed by the avalanche of bullshit.
I'd say it's about the envelope being pushed. To get to be implementing Nazi policies you need to make being a Nazi OK.
And also important to not fall in with an equivalent of the right-wing trope that says Universal Healthcare = Stalinism, and call Trump's current policies 'Nazi'. 😔
Well, Elie, love ya, man! But.... you're not a Jew, and I'm not black. But I guess you could maybe equate what seeing his sieg heil means to Jews with what seeing the Confederate flag means to Black people? https://bsky.app/profile/2the7thgen.bsky.social/post/3lg7ney4gzc2r
As a proud Jewish American, I say NEVER AGAIN. The ADL’s disgraceful, repugnant claim that a Nazi salute was “just an awkward gesture” is a betrayal of its mission. This capitulation emboldens hate. We must stand firm against antisemitism, racism, & extremism, even when the ADL abandons its duty.
I agree. It's absolutely DISGUSTING the groups defending this monster, and the people not wanting to "focus on hand gestures" just rolling over and ACCEPTING this shit. This shit MATTERS whether they want to admit it or not. It's a symbol of their hatred, how can they be so dismissive??
What an odd thing to say. Of course they are. As far as I know, no one is saying they aren't. But gestures are immediately visible and they matter. They speak.
From a practical standpoint, yes, but I am also concerned that the fascist supporters with guns who don’t do a whole lot of reading will be activated more quickly by fascist salutes from behind the presidential seal.
To my eye, this was the world’s richest man, the purchaser of the presidency, defense contractor, and media baron making a public declaration of the depth of his assent to Nazi policies.
Sure, but what part of that wasn't evident in his apartheid era "dismantle DEI" policies... other than the fact that people don't like to make the connection between what the white South African is doing and what white South Africans did?
It took the Nazi salute for a good friend and Tesla driver to finally pay attention. Too many people aren't paying attention to the policies, so if a Nazi salute does the trick, I say, "Good."
This all scans to me as a bit like "Trump's MSG Nazi rally was mean to Puerto Ricans, so now Puerto Ricans think he might be racist." Like, yeah, he was also racist before he said something about your shit personally.
If the gesture pisses people off, fine. But there's no new information.
There's no new information but it was a clear signal to violent racists, right before Trump pardoned a bunch of other violent racists. The interpretation of these things by extremists actually is important.
Exactly. He continues to signal to his base that he understands their fear and hate. That he is “their retribution”. And Democrats answer with a policy white paper.
Considering that millions of voters and non-voters somehow forgot how awful the first Trump admin was... we could use bit more repetition in our approach...
There are still sooo many not locked in or talking about “bipartisanship”. Maybe this action will give them a clue to notice the horror of the policies and the players.
The EOs are more important than the Nazi salute but the Nazi salute may be easier to talk about in a way that breaks through and helps less political people understand the big picture
Ahh, I guess that's the part that I don't agree with.
Nothing "breaks through" to "less political people" because the less political people you're talking about either voted for or are cool with Nazis. They know exactly what they're supporting, without these bigots waving their hands around.
White Americans don't like being associated with Nazis--a culturally ingrained evil. They envision themselves as the beacons of justice and fair play (the reason so many hate the site of black and Native skin: it reminds them of their lie). The Nazi connection matters. Use it at every opportunity
Lots of people have no idea what they voted for or failed to vote against. I’m not defending that but i think it’s an important info ecosystem consideration
Yeah. I know what you are saying is part of the standard belief structure, so I'm not criticizing you for saying it. I just don't believe it. I think people knew what they were voting for or staying home to let happen.
They wanted exactly this. They think, somehow, it will help them.
Both comforted and disturbed by this conversation.
I have to keep SOME hope that SOME of the maga family members and former friends in my life are ignorant instead of ...well...nazis. Bigoted assholes, yes. But sometimes bigoted assholes change.
Which is why we shouldn’t be asking “if” Republicans support this or that, but rather ask “why” they do. 10 years of support for it is enough evidence to draw a simple conclusion. The entire GOP is in for everything he does and says.
“Senator, why do you want the military to take Greenland?”
And stop asking whether Trump "should" do something and whether his supporters agree with it. He is doing it, period. Talk about the harm, and hang it around his sycophants' necks. If they're not doing anything to stop him, they own it.
There is a desperately regrettable and divisive tendency in current left-wing thinking to condescend to people in pain, and even minimize their suffering, on the grounds that your community had it worse.
We must root this out because it is destroying solidarity on the left.
There is a corresponding competition for pity as if it's a scarce resource that must be hoarded only for your people, or your causes, and must be vigorously opposed when similarly situated people of different ethnicity or identity try to claim a share.
That does nothing to bring prices down and make our lives better! Lower drug prices, he fucked that up already! Letting criminals back out on the streets, not helping any of us! Russia still making war on Ukraine! Day 2 all he’s done is inflict cruelty and fear to Americans! Some President!
It's still illegal to use a Roman Salute, especially in political context, at least in Germany and Italy. I would love him to do this on a State visit and try to explain his way out.
It’s a lot easier and quicker to get buy-in with the Nazi salute bit than it is to have to go off on a long winded explanatory rant about policies which has an equal chance of making the explainer look like the crazy one to the uninitiated, offline layperson
True. But who is more likely going to enforce those policies? The guy selling bratwurst and sauerkraut on the street corner or the (very) weird billionaire who's just publicly and dramatically uncloaked as a Nazi on a stage with the world watching?
Me personally I think it’s bad someone with infinite money and political power does a nazi salute, but then I’m not a mega brained blogger like elie mystal.
They are but it is still very jarring to see a Nazi salute in plain view and then be told by mainstream outlets that the little guy was just excited, with barely any pushback from the regime itself.
I've been watching TCM all day.
They were prepared for the day after trump's inauguration by playing pro democracy/anti Nazi movies.
Just finished Chaplin's masterpiece The Great Dictator.
You are unusually adroit and my go-to pundit of choice. But you’ve missed it here. The Nazi salute is the ballgame. It’s a distillation of the Trump base argument, which is white fear and grievance. It’s why the clearly superior policies of the Harris/Democratic campaign didn’t land. It was never..
…about policies, it was always, continues to be about white supremacy. That’s the Trump base priority. Not the cost of eggs, or inflation, or immigration. It’s why Democrats could move far right on immigration and it have no effect at the polls. The Trump base doesn’t care.
Nazi salutes are a symbolic shorthand of Nazi policies. Democrats should actually learn to use emotional signals and language. It was never about policies for the majority of Trump voters.
So far he’s pardoned his cofelons, erased Spanish language from White House web site, withdrawn from WHO &Paris. There’s probably more but it’s time for a 🍸
A problem with a lot of politics is word like "fascism" to describe policies have little meaning to the vast majority of the public. Unless you're actually wearing a swastika, a Hitler mustache, or doing the salute, it won't break through much at all.
"Leaders of today’s Neo-Nazi and White Supremacist organizations are not Hitler, and America is not Germany, but in order to understand agenda, it's vital to understand the history of code words, symbols, & ideologies."
It's a Bluesky thread, so ignore tapping the article pic and start scrolling ⏬
for sure but also the fact that it's ok now for government officials to do Nazi salutes in public is a strong indication that the Nazi policies are going to get much much worse
I am pretty confident if you were in Germany and did that Nazi salute in this day and age or any verbalization in written or spoken words, it equals prison for up to 3 years. So NO, it is a big deal. It is disgusting. I have relatives that died fighting in WWII.
Honestly, I am mad that we're not focusing enough on the nazi salute. I really thought that would prompt a serious reckoning for a lot of people. I am still stunned that it's been largely a non-issue. Feel like this was a last chance for any remaining non-maniacs on the right to turn back.
You’re obviously not wrong; it’s just that this is such a bright fucking line—it’s not a “frogs being brought to a boil” thing. If we can’t condemn overt Nazi gestures—and I’m still waiting for Musk to deny that that’s what it was—where are we?
Like, in the past, when Nazi-like policies were called out as such, the policies’ proponents would deny that they were Nazi-like, or misapply Godwin’s law, or whatever. They would not shrug and say “So we’re Nazis—so what?”
And that’s basically been Musk’s reaction to the outcry over this.
They are. But, you can pretty much bet that someone with Musk's resources, who is blatantly displaying a Nazi salute and promoting Nazi organizations in our allies, will pretty much guaranteed, implement Nazi Policies.
You’re telling me that a platform of anti-immigrant, anti-queer, anti-poor, anti-protection, and pro-torture, pro-sedition policy positions seems to all point toward some kind of pattern?
Seems like a bit of a reach.
(If this were any more drenched in sarcasm it would have a British accent).
Come on man. Obviously, yeah? Him doing this is a warning of those policies becoming real. But this is a big deal. There are two types of Cons with this, basically: Those who want this to be ok and are calling it what it was, and those who think 'bad optics' and are contorting it into anything else.
This is so silly. Are you still doing the west wing shit? Go ahead and tell everyone all about the "Nazi policies" and keep spitting into the wind to your bubble.
100%, but I think it's the hubris.
It recalls the 2016 inauguration when R. Spencer and other white nationalists felt emboldened to march in the streets, yelling "Heil Trump" in their social feeds, foreshadowing Charlottesville later that summer.
J6ers walking consequence-free sets up the next one.
Both things are bad, and relate to one another. The salute is basically flashing gang signs; the hate philosophy props it all up. My issue is anyone (media, individual) trying to excuse or normalize this shit.
This feels a bit pedantic, respectfully. Until the acts happen, this is what we have to oppose. Obviously, the policies are worse; this was the opening salvo.
Facts. Trump establishing a holocaust-style genocide against migrants fueled by state departments who are executive ordered to, and I am not exaggerating, be supplied with lethal injection supplies in every state.
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Do you realize how much you are complete idiots, you media talking heads who just spent three days saying the same thing about Elon Musk?
https://x.com/MaximeBernier/status/1882442557659254871?t=eN8SXIn_Wg_c2wtbWzf70A&s=19
this will empower them even more. It's a bat signal of support. A calling.
And for those saying there are more important things going on? It's all important and we can multi-task.
The fact that Elon has bought his way into leadership, that is textbook fascism. His views on paternity are fascism.
What’s there to discuss? It’s day 1 and they’re already acting without a conversation. What is happening now is them testing the waters and it will get worse if we don’t push back! It is our duty to stand and denounce it in its entirety.
The absolutist "anything our side does is ok" and "anything they do is bad" is so blatant. It appeals to dumbasses who cling to "their" sports team come hell or high water. "Bad call! Our guy did not try to take their guys head off! Bad call! Our guy was safe by a mile!" "Bad call! Bad call!"
#TodaysGOP
"No."
"Uhhhhh..."
And also important to not fall in with an equivalent of the right-wing trope that says Universal Healthcare = Stalinism, and call Trump's current policies 'Nazi'. 😔
https://bsky.app/profile/2the7thgen.bsky.social/post/3lg7ney4gzc2r
And like, when I see people with the confederate flag, I’m *often* like “the flag is bad but the modern day confederate policies are worse.”
Anyway, people shouldn’t make Nazi salutes.
https://bsky.app/profile/2the7thgen.bsky.social/post/3lg7ney4gzc2r
Have never experienced any form of discrimination or hatred. Uneducated. Lack of emotional intelligence.
Whatever gets more of us from Point A to B.... is helpful.
Pretty sure they can both be condemned.
If the gesture pisses people off, fine. But there's no new information.
I just hope people don't start and stop paying attention with the nazi salute.
Nothing "breaks through" to "less political people" because the less political people you're talking about either voted for or are cool with Nazis. They know exactly what they're supporting, without these bigots waving their hands around.
Btw, the other guy told over 35K documented LIES in his first term.
They wanted exactly this. They think, somehow, it will help them.
You cannot reach those who do not care to be reached, and you especially cannot reach those who revel in not being reached.
I have to keep SOME hope that SOME of the maga family members and former friends in my life are ignorant instead of ...well...nazis. Bigoted assholes, yes. But sometimes bigoted assholes change.
Nazism...don't know if I can forgive that.
“Senator, why do you want the military to take Greenland?”
We must root this out because it is destroying solidarity on the left.
This, too, is disastrous for the left.
So his big Nazi moment on stage was also an attempt to shore up their support & test the waters on FullNazi.
Enough criticism actually might slow him down a bit!
If Musk actually is forced to denounce Neo Nazis a bit more right now, it fractures their coalition a bit.
Criticizing Musk for the Nazi stuff isn’t just performative outrage, it’s strategically useful.
They're one in the same.
That is the point of its open and notorious use.
Hey everybody look, it’s elie mystal, the only person in the entire world with the analytical savvy to be concerned about nazi policies.
They were prepared for the day after trump's inauguration by playing pro democracy/anti Nazi movies.
Just finished Chaplin's masterpiece The Great Dictator.
This is something people can see.
A problem with a lot of politics is word like "fascism" to describe policies have little meaning to the vast majority of the public. Unless you're actually wearing a swastika, a Hitler mustache, or doing the salute, it won't break through much at all.
It's a Bluesky thread, so ignore tapping the article pic and start scrolling ⏬
We thought “LOOK!” but they don’t care.
And that’s basically been Musk’s reaction to the outcry over this.
Just a handy tip on who St. Luigi should pay attention to.
It’s not like you can divorce the two when they come from people in power.
(We just need to get our shit together...)
Seems like a bit of a reach.
(If this were any more drenched in sarcasm it would have a British accent).
Policies.
Two sides of the same coin.
It recalls the 2016 inauguration when R. Spencer and other white nationalists felt emboldened to march in the streets, yelling "Heil Trump" in their social feeds, foreshadowing Charlottesville later that summer.
J6ers walking consequence-free sets up the next one.
Nobody criticized Adolf Hitler because they thought that his hand gestures were objectively bad.
We criticize hand gestures (and other symbolism) because they are a strong indicator of policy preferences.
https://bsky.app/profile/jonrademacher.bsky.social/post/3lgblnygdh22g
That was only Day 1.
it’s not very helpful to make this an either-or