I agree with this wholeheartedly but the people I have seen making the easy mode for souls games aren't usually making this argument. Again this has been my observation but may be my fault for not following enough disabled gamers
The mechanics are the narrative. I don’t really get wanting to play these games for the story because they don’t really have much of an explicit narrative. Plus in most of them you can grind, in Elden Ring you can just fuck off entirely and go somewhere else
I do think that it enhances the communal tone of the game that every bloodstain and ghost image represent another player going through exactly the same experience as you, even if their choices within that experience diverge from your own
I'm of the dual opinion that it should have an easy mode but that the games are perfectly beatable through grinding/summons/or just being persistant. Imo the games aren't so much "hard" as it is they require a unique approach to the gameplay
like I wouldn't have any problem with them adding an easy mode but I think it is maybe the culture and reputation surrounding the games more than the games themselves that makes them feel inaccessible to a lot of players.
Well, at least in a way that isn’t true of most of the genre. We’ve only recently started seeing real modular accessibility options in the past few years.
I strongly agree. With frequent revive points and no loss of equipment or previously-purchased levels on death, the games lower the consequences of failure to the point where you can endure plenty of it and gradually learn each challenge.
I really want to see more experiments like the jedi souls granular sliders - making mechanics easier / more comfortable / etc is better than making them ignorable, and exposing that stuff gets closer to addressing root accessibility concerns in a way that gets past the difficulty conversation, too
It's the lack of explicit narrative that intrigues me about these games. Bloodborne especially had a cool aesthetic, and I like reading the little bits of lore & piecing it all together, but I don't want to grind forever because of getting stuck on a certain boss. Just my pov 🤷
elden ring actually has that! it’s just accessed through gameplay rather than a menu. bosses can be nerfed with frostbite and if you’ve beaten godrick you can pop a rune arc to raise all your stats by 5 until the next time you die
Not to mention player summons! Some of the most fun I had in a souls game was being a phantom for the Mirror Knight in DS2 with a greatshield and the aggro ring and just never attacking, so that the host could take down the boss without having to worry as much about dodge timing
All souls games let you summon a good player who will come and beat the boss/level for you while you hide. I honestly think the entire point of the summoning mechanic is exactly what you're articulating here; if you really get stuck, you can get help from more experienced players.
ER is actually unique among the other Souls games in that if you're having trouble there's advice you can give besides "Get good" like finding better items, upgrade equipment, flasks, levels, etc to give yourself a boost
Yeah ER is such an outlier. I didn't get through Sekiro, got through Bloodborne multiple times, and while I don't care one way or the other about easy modes, I have to imagine an easy mode simply wouldn't be particularly engaging. The first two souls games especially would simply be bad games!
I think "difficulty" is a much too broad term here really. There are a lot of aspects of difficulty, e.g. I don't have the patience for a lot of strategy games or the twitch skills for most online FPS titles
So then it feels like we're not actually arguing. Like, if you agree that sliders on things like timing windows are fine...that's an end-around to an easy mode and honestly I'm totally fine with that
I've played soulslikes that I've found too easy, and I didn't engage with them anywhere near the level I did with, say, Bloodborne. Maybe there's a way to make that sort of engagement less difficult, but I think it's be a different game and not just fiddling with damage sliders
OK but if YOU don't engage with them because they're too easy, then just...play them on hard mode. No one is saying they shouldn't have a hard mode! Let those of us who *don't* want to play them purely on hard mode get to experience them!
I don’t know what to tell you, man. If a game absolutely NEEDS difficulty to be an enriching experience for literally any player then the game is using difficulty as a crutch
I found this true but only up to a point. I still got my ass beat till it wasn’t fun anymore and I quit. Up until then I loved it — vibes art nomenclature GRRMalia you name it. In the end I felt punished for not being a Gamer. Which, if that’s who it’s for OK, but easier ER would be much appreciated
What did you find difficult in particular? Getting hit and hitting bosses and stuff? There might be ways to build more tolerances into that kind of thing (adjustable dodge windows etc.) that don't get talked about much
Alright two caveats: 1 this is almost certainly my fault and 2 interesting only to me, but
Contra soulsborne literature, I turned my character into this huge heavily armored bruiser with the Berserk sword so I could buttonmash, bc that's the only way I've ever succeeded in combat-based games.+
This probably made it harder than it had to be, but it was my style, and I had a grand time clearing all those horrible hellholes. (Big fan of postapoc/dystopian epic fantasy as an idea.) But then I got to a nice city, maybe the capital? Anyway it was much cleaner. Suddenly my style didn't work.+
I'd advance for seriously 20 minutes but not reach a save point, and some weird globule man would kill me like a dog. Rinse, repeat. So that's where I got sick of it—falling victim to strange mancreatures in that city bc I couldn't just walk up and hoss fight them anymore.
counterpoint: i got into monster hunter via the high level expansion armor, which let me learn the mechanics with a lot of room to fail. when i reached the expansion itself, id learned to fight and had a great time really enjoying the mechanics that i never did when i started cold
My general policy with a game is to play it on easy or medium first. If I really like it, I will often then go play it on harder difficulties, which I will now find rewarding. I’m playing an XCOM2 Ironman run now. I wouldn’t enjoy it if I had to start on that difficulty!
Right, seems like this might go back to whether one considers games art. If you do, it seems hard to argue that mechanics and difficulty aren't part of the artistic expression. Some designers will find adjustable difficulty to be consistent with their vision, others won't.
changing the difficulty doesn't change that though. If I can tune the game to where it is difficult, but not completely unenjoyable/unpossible - I am still getting the exact same narrative experience but... enjoyable
For you, sure, which is why it’s great that you can still play it on hard. Other people don’t have to experience a game the way you prefer to in order to enjoy their experience. How does them doing so negatively impact you?
the game already has options that make it easier built in- different builds are the easy mode
i don’t think it needs a little toggle option it feels redundant
Well what does an actual easy mode imply? Is it lowering enemies health? Reducing spawns? Providing more shortcuts? Nobody really agrees on what an easy mode for Dark Souls would change.
This is not an argument against including an easy mode as much as it is a defense for not including one, but adding and balancing multiple difficulty modes can add dev time that small and indie studios sometimes can't afford.
I should be clear that *without* that issue my only criticism of difficulty levels is that they're a blunt tool compared to the multiple options you get in something like Not for Broadcast or Mafia 2.
I pro-team multiple modes, but one argument I think makes sense is the communal aspect on release and exploring the nooks and crannies, mechanics, and overcoming challenges and sharing with others (or trolling). An initial easy mode somewhat trivializes that.
Over the long run of a game more accessible options should absolutely be added, but I can see not doing so on initial release while the bulk of the community is in discovery mode if you want to foster that communal aspect, something I think Fromsoft absolutely tries to foster.
An easy mode, depending on the game, can do that in a lot of ways. To be clear, I'm talking about a very specific time window where there are community wide roadblocks no one has figured out yet. . .
Given enough time those will be figured out regardless of difficulty, so I don't agree with never including more accessible options, but I can see a dev that really wanted to cater to that mindset not doing so temporarily*
And also to clarify I think there are better ways to approach that if that's the intent, but I've already spent way more time playing devil's advocate for something I largely don't agree with anyway.
in general, I wish all devs would include really simple "cheat codes" or "house rules" that allow players to mess with some really common settings. Rogue Legacy 2, Baldur's Gate 3 (now), and some other indie titles are great here.
Not going to bite, but just want to say I want everyone to get what I got out of Bloodborne and if that means difficulty/accessibility options then so be it.
I like them but they are advertised as punishing and I think the developers intend part of the frustration to be a piece of game experience because there can be a great sense of joy finally beating a hard part. There’s also plenty of glitches and cheats to make it very easy
They already have easy modes. You can be OP in Elden Ring in like 20 minutes by picking up the easily available gear/spells which enable it and then killing a completely stationary, half dead dragon worth like 35 levels or some crazy amount. Completely changes the game.
You guys keep using Elden ring when that’s easily the most accessible of the soulsborne games, and also the most wildly popular which uhhhhh kind of proves my point here
The others have this too (except maybe Sekiro idk I never played it), my point is just that the games expect you to engage with their conceit and systems at least a little bit in order to unfold it. I feel like ppl approach these titles like they're God of War & get pissed when it's not rewarded.
I'm not a soulsbourne guy but my take is that this wouldn't be an issue for anybody if soulsbourne guys weren't telling people how great soulsbourne games are at every opportunity
the only argument against an easy mode in these games is that they're just not good games if that's not what you're specifically into. Gotta lean into it being one man's trash
The souls games DO have easy difficulty (technically)
The games use the level system as a substitute for it
Yes you'll have to grind
But you CAN use upgrades to level out the difficulty of the game, and some builds make more of the game easier
I feel like having a set easy mode wouldnt work
Im not saying it wouldn't function
Im saying it wouldn't be thematically appropriate
The world is Struggling to survive, a world that should be long dead, as the player is too, as the chosen undead.
Its a core design decision for players to struggle through the game
On top of that
Stat increases and upgrades are supposed to mitigate part of the challenge
More health means you can make more mistakes
More attack means less openings you have to find
A lot of the shields reduce/negate damage take, etc
Then the game is being an asshole and it should have an option to not do that because if it did it would not harm your enjoyment of the game in any way
Because the satisfaction from beating a hard boss is great
But it wouldnt be nearly as good without the ass kicking before hand
Thats not for everyone, of course, but its part of what makes the series great
Struggling and overcoming
At least for the DS series
On top of that, they're games built thematically around persistence, bith in the world and as a player
The challenge is a PART of that experiencen and that might not be for everyone
Hence why you can build into certain stats and playstyles to make things easier/harder
I personally feel that having a flat easy mode difficulty setting would rob players of experiencing that hardship of Struggle, because that's what makes Dark souls as a series
The feeling of TRUELY overcoming challenge in whatever way you can
You should struggle, thats the point
I've only ever beaten Elden Ring. The first time I saw someone beat a souls game using a fucking guitar hero controller, I knew that the game was not too difficult, (or inaccessible), it was that I hadn't learned the language of the game.
I enjoy the feeling of being exceptional & implementing refined skillsets that I have developed w/ my own effort and dedication. Every time I encounter the feeling "This is frustrating me, I want to give up" mange to suppress it, and surpass my limitations, I feel something that can't be replicated
You can just ignore the easy mode though to still get your challenge needs met. But if you can't ignore it, then maybe you're not as strong as you'd like to think you are.
I this is like the most asshole take you can have on the issue, e An easy mode wouldn’t detract from the experience you describe as long as you don’t use it. I think devs like From choosing not to implement selectable difficulty is perfectly valid but this reads like a “I studied the Blade” guy
Congrats, you’ve just made a great argument for the inclusion of hard modes. Would you like to try making one against the inclusion of easy modes, as was the assignment?
If there was an easy mode, it'd cheapen my sense of accomplishment. It'd just be another set of parameters I could set at my own convenience. It would make the game feel more toylike to me. Any truly great work of art will have, maybe MUST have, people who are unable to grapple with it.
Ok, you enjoying it is not the thing that was asked for, which was a good reason to not include an easy mode. That some people like something that is bad is not a good reason to do it
If an easy mode would cheapen your sense of accomplishment, that is a You Problem and no one else should have to suffer for your persona insecurities. Again, would you like to make something that's not a terrible argument?
Because you can still experience that pleasure at beating the game on a hard mode. The existence of an easy mode doesn't mean you didn't beat the game on hard. Literally no one is arguing against the inclusion of hard modes.
why does the existence of an easier mode cheapen your enjoyment of the hard mode? Youre presumably not going to choose the easy mode. So why does its existence affect you in any way?
My son and I both play Civ. He plays on God level and I... don't. I play so that I have to concentrate on something which is fun. He plays to feel like he has a sense of achievement. My playing an easier level doesn't bother him or his sense of accomplishment at all.
Ah, I think I see part of where people itt have me wrong. I don't think the lack of an easy mode should be universal across every videogame ever. But the lack of one in soulsbornes makes me enjoy them in a unique way. I apologize for not making that clear, I thought it would be obvious
for a comparison, when I work out at the gym and lift weights, and dedicate myself to lifting weights enough that I can lift heavy weights that most people can't lift, the fact that there are people who CANNOT lift them gives me a sense of power that can't be gotten any other way.
you are describing a situation where different people literally do the same exercises by moving a little pin or slider up and down before they begin, to calibrate it to their own ability
this is absolute nonsense. It's like saying gyms should only have gigantic heavy weights so you can feel better about being stronger than everyone else. But people *wouldn't go* to gyms if there weren't weights there they could lift, so who would you compare yourself to?
Like this obviously a bad way to think, like a purely morally, socially, and intellectually bankrupt attitude towards other people, but even if you're going to think that way it makes more sense to have people doing it on easy mode in order to make hard mode meaningful.
as someone who also has an intense fitness habit that lets me do things other people can't do: this is selfish as hell. life is way more fun when you're lifting other people up along the way
I spent a good chunk of this year helping a friend learn how to lift weights. I spotted them in the gym to help them with weights that were too heavy. One might even say that she summoned me, for help, to make it easier, akin to a mechanic present in a videogame you might have heard of
People have different scales of tolerance for frustration, and the inclusion of hard mode only risks setting up a situation where players will start a game, encounter a roadblock and play something else that feels more rewarding rather than breaking their head over it.
I think my last personal best was around 325 lbs, for five reps. I don't do one rep maxes because I am a little scared of them, admittedly. Always worried I'll give myself a hernia.
Ok, in this comparison though, the argument would be because YOU feel challenged at a certain number, all weights below that number should be removed as the option to not push yourself existing cheapens your accomplishment of the heavier weights.
Well technically, more accurately, the argument should be that weights below whatever is challenging for you shouldn’t exist in the first place, or only exist in other gyms
By that reasoning, doesn't souls have an easy mode, by way of having starting areas with comparitively easy mobs and mechanics, that gradually becomes harder with progress?
You know what I can do with weights? Adjust the amount of weight and challenge to my body that fits my needs and fitness level. Or do you think everyone should just git gud by deadlifting 500 (and only 500) lbs.
And you can play a hard mode that others can’t beat and still have that weirdo’s sense of accomplishment.m if that’s what you care about. What you really want is a toy for you and nobody else.
I'm thinking the parking lot would be one long corridor and require parallel parking all the way so that people would have to work at it and get good at it before they can even try the weights
what if i told you that people experience the difficulty of a game relatively? as in, a game that is easy for you may be very difficult for me and vice versa?
Being "exceptional" at a video game is like being the best at jerking off. It's not a useful skill and no one is impressed by it. In fact, most people think it's weird to think of it in those terms. Hope this helps.
I don't think anyone is impressed by it. But it does give me satisfaction to be better than others. And before I'm accused of being some evil tyrant for saying that, isn't everyone who engageds in some kind of competition doing so because being better at something is fun/enjoyable/desirable etc?
This would be an excellent argument...for a multiplayer game. For which absolutely no one is arguing there should be an easy mode. Because it's a multiplayer game against other people.
This is an incredibly dumb point to make about a game that has an option to bring in friends (or enemies, if you're a complete psychopath and want to go ruin someone else's day) but doesn't require it
Do you think the difficulty options would effect multiplayer? Do you think setting Call of Duty to easy makes the people you get matched against easier or your zombies co-op partners better?
No one thinks you're an evil tyrant, we think you're a dumbass nerd because you think being better at a video game makes you think you're "better than others." It's cringe and I'm suffering from second hand embarrassment.
The worst anyone is calling you is a jerk. Which you are. You're as selfish asshole. That doesn't mean evil tyrant though, and you should grow up. Maybe put away the toys in general until you've matured beyond thinking they're anything but toys.
Look, I’ve been the number one fire mage on my world of Warcraft server when it comes to running Mythic+ dungeons. Just because I can time a +17, does not mean that the mere option to do a +4 cheapens the challenge and sense of accomplishment that my personal record has.
Like this is all embarrassingly nerd-like of me to just be like “I’ve been the top fire mage on my server” but my point is that I know what it’s like to be REALLY good at something. But it wasn’t at the detriment or denial of others to have their own personal records and sense of accomplishment
When I had to run a specific dungeon like 10-15 times before timing it as a high keystone level, I didn’t feel devalued by others struggling to do that for a low keystone. When I practiced violin for 3 hours a day, I didn’t feel less accomplished because most people were worse at it than me
With video games, you're describing the feeling of building a balsa wood and tissue paper model airplane, which does take skill and effort, and also provides a sense of accomplishment, but it would silly to say Lego kits for people who want to invest less time on a model.
It would also be silly to declare building Legos as "less than" building a complex difficult model, in the sense that its not a contest, its a hobby, for enjoyment
“I enjoy having things/doing things that other people cannot have/do. Others not being able to do/have these things makes them better for me.” is how this reads to me. Not trying to editorialize, trying to illustrate why people are responding to this the way they are.
"If the arbitrary values the developer set for health/damage/attack speed/etc... were different, than the multiple hours I spent replaying the same 10 minute section of the game over and over and over and over again would be meaning less"
Gamers today get everything handed to them. 8k graphics, easy modes, tutorial YouTube videos. In my day, video games were just squares floating around knocking into other squares, and if you knocked them together just right you’d get to write A.S.S. on the leader board. And we were GRATEFUL!
It’s fine that it doesn’t because Soulslike devs can rush in and not only fulfill that demand but also innovate in other areas like worldbuilding, storytelling, atmosphere, etc.
That. It’s fine that FromSoft doesn’t do easy modes cause by now other Soulslike devs have done, and will do. It’s fine that FromSoft makes their own artistic choices in a genre choked with options. best argument I got *shrug*
I addressed this somewhere else but difficulty modes are generally extremely easy to implement; it's just swapping numbers around. It gets trickier if you get granular enough to do things like alter timing windows, but even then it's not *that* much harder to program
Sure its easier than doing stuff that involves making new assets and things like that but "just swapping numbers around" isn't trivial. You have to test all potential interactions for stuff that can create bugs, you have to make sure that play is still "fun" at the different levels, its not 0 work.
As an example in one game I worked on we found a bug where someone had changed the way the engine dropped the volume on audio emitters when we couldn't get some stuff to balance right "just swapping the numbers around" to get the game sounding right after that change was removed took a while.
Like I dont think there is any special reason to be against it. Im just pointing out that it is work, and that could be reflected in dev times or budgets or whatever.
What do we do when the baked in easy mode is still not accessible to everyone, or is boring? Balancing the game to be challenging but fun is not trivial; doing it twice won't really fix the core problem that some people won't be able to enjoy either mode.
So you're saying you want it, like, Maximum Easy? Like, you don't take damage from enemies or die falling off cliffs? That doesn't seem like a mode that would realistically be enjoyed by many people.
If that's not what you mean then guess what? Your easy mode is still an accessibility problem.
In fact I do believe games should come with modes that just let you steamroll them if you choose. Control and Psychonauts 2 both have no-death modes. No real reason not to put that in for people who want it
This wasn't a flippant response, I'm genuinely curious. What would be a sufficiently easy mode to you? How many disabled people are we willing to leave behind in the quest for accessibility? What is an acceptable compromise between accessibility and there still being some kind of gameplay?
Every time people call for an easy mode it seems like they're imagining a magic easy mode that is exactly right for every person to complete the game and have a fun experience. That's not achievable.
No? If an easy mode doesn’t provide a challenge, that’s fine, because it’s literally *an easy mode.* it’s not here to be challenging. You are fundamentally misunderstanding the assignment
Like, if someone really wants to play Dark Souls, the tools exist to cut incoming damage in half, or turn off damage entirely, or remove all enemies, or turn on no clip and fly around the map. Make your own easy mode that's tailored to you if the core experience isn't good.
From Soft Games are 80% the best games I've ever played and 20% intentionally bad games on purpose by mistaking limitations of old games for intentional DNA. And I have played some all the way through, this isn't a "quitter" talking. They make them bad on purpose for reasons that feed toxicity
Comments
With perhaps a corollary being that in a good souls game it's funny when you die and that's half the point of playing
Contra soulsborne literature, I turned my character into this huge heavily armored bruiser with the Berserk sword so I could buttonmash, bc that's the only way I've ever succeeded in combat-based games.+
I couldn't figure out any reason to explore this bleak world and I saw no people in it I wanted to save
I didn't realize I was supposed to be challenging myself for the sake of the challenge
That is absolutely not my thing
/s
I personally believe it is a good game and would still be a good game were it not an exercise is frustration
i don’t think it needs a little toggle option it feels redundant
(Big studios don't have excuses though)
Over the long run of a game more accessible options should absolutely be added, but I can see not doing so on initial release while the bulk of the community is in discovery mode if you want to foster that communal aspect, something I think Fromsoft absolutely tries to foster.
Given enough time those will be figured out regardless of difficulty, so I don't agree with never including more accessible options, but I can see a dev that really wanted to cater to that mindset not doing so temporarily*
And also to clarify I think there are better ways to approach that if that's the intent, but I've already spent way more time playing devil's advocate for something I largely don't agree with anyway.
that's about all I got
in general, I wish all devs would include really simple "cheat codes" or "house rules" that allow players to mess with some really common settings. Rogue Legacy 2, Baldur's Gate 3 (now), and some other indie titles are great here.
long gone are the days of Game Genies and Game Sharks :(
"Cool! Can I try it in a way that makes it feel great, to me?"
"No, and also, get fucked."
the difficulty is part of the experience just as much as the story and world building
taking the difficulty away from it would harm it’s concept in many many ways
it’s a game that requires perseverance, as well as many other games in different genres
The games use the level system as a substitute for it
Yes you'll have to grind
But you CAN use upgrades to level out the difficulty of the game, and some builds make more of the game easier
I feel like having a set easy mode wouldnt work
Im saying it wouldn't be thematically appropriate
The world is Struggling to survive, a world that should be long dead, as the player is too, as the chosen undead.
Its a core design decision for players to struggle through the game
Stat increases and upgrades are supposed to mitigate part of the challenge
More health means you can make more mistakes
More attack means less openings you have to find
A lot of the shields reduce/negate damage take, etc
But it wouldnt be nearly as good without the ass kicking before hand
Thats not for everyone, of course, but its part of what makes the series great
Struggling and overcoming
On top of that, they're games built thematically around persistence, bith in the world and as a player
The challenge is a PART of that experiencen and that might not be for everyone
Hence why you can build into certain stats and playstyles to make things easier/harder
The feeling of TRUELY overcoming challenge in whatever way you can
You should struggle, thats the point
If something as simple as a dev putting easy mode or accessebility in a game offends you, you might game for the wrong reasons
the inclusion of an easy mode doesn’t stop you from playing on hard mode still and getting the platinum cheevo from no-lifing
fuck those 2 pounders, get em out of here. In fact let's make the door at the gym insanely heavy and hard to open.
I mean if we're going to analogy town I think those are the rules
You just like the superior feeling.
And FWIW? I don't believe FromSoft games are shitty at all. They could stand up perfectly well with easy modes
Do people who regularly win marathons feel lessened by people who struggle to do half marathons?
then you even know what percent of gamer you are if you need that bauble
But like I really don't care
While I dont think its make or brake it is a thing the devs would have to do.
But if they did it it wouldn't bother me.
Modding/cheat tools are a better solution.
Mod and cheat tools don’t exist on consoles
If that's not what you mean then guess what? Your easy mode is still an accessibility problem.