When a “sovereign citizen” comes to court to say the flag has a gold fringe and so it’s an Admiralty Court without jurisdiction over them, the judge doesn’t — and shouldn’t — say “well let me read the literature from P@tr3ot1969 on Reddit. Ilan Wurman is shilling for extremist trash. - ThreadSky

kenwhite.bsky.social • 44 days ago

When a “sovereign citizen” comes to court to say the flag has a gold fringe and so it’s an Admiralty Court without jurisdiction over them, the judge doesn’t — and shouldn’t — say “well let me read the literature from P@tr3ot1969 on Reddit. Ilan Wurman is shilling for extremist trash.

Reposted from Anthony Michael Kreis

Something is embarrassing but the call is coming from inside the house. I’m sorry, but it’s bad. Sometimes it’s okay to say “no” in defense of the constitutional order and our most valued traditions. We don’t need to entertain all ideas as having equal merit or pretend by going through the motions.

Comments

ericr42.bsky.social•44 days ago

💯

psteq1993.bsky.social•44 days ago

Said entire literature is written on toilet paper and signed in blood.

ftp-coward.bsky.social•44 days ago

Are you saying it’s okay for a judge to just “stand by” some position because it’s been “previously decided “?

wankerjustice.bsky.social•44 days ago

wild, amirite?

courtjezter84.bsky.social•44 days ago

That’s literally the King of the Hill episode where Dale sues Manitoba Tobacco

wndlb.bsky.social•43 days ago

Maybe the learned Prof. Wurman went around the bend on Manhattan Institute and FedSoc vapors.

sherifosterblake8.bsky.social•44 days ago

WTAF

bartenderesq.bsky.social•44 days ago

When I clerked, I always had a lot of fun reading their crackpot theories. But, like, it wasn’t going to be considered as serious legal analysis in the judgment because it…wasn’t serious legal analysis.

chuckrudolph.bsky.social•44 days ago

You think that just because the text of the constitution is totally clear and unambiguous, there is a Supreme Court case rejecting the exact argument we are making that the case is easy?

But have you considered that my buddies have been printing lies in legal journals?

bullmoose.bsky.social•44 days ago

Does it help to say it when you get selected for jury duty?

bullmoose.bsky.social•44 days ago

Asking for a friend.

localazaleaplayer.bsky.social•44 days ago

I really like the argument of "There's an entire literature that disagrees" because it works for ANYTHING.
There's an entire literature that disagree on their concept of gender, and also explains in detail how cis men can get pregnant, but I wouldn't count ABO (or P@tr3ot1969) fanfic as serious.

sundaytrucker.bsky.social•44 days ago

“Entire literature that disagrees” isn’t the point he thinks it is. There is entire literature about the UFO/Bigfoot phenomenon. Lots of people writing lots of stuff probably wasn’t part of that original intent.

kankansi.bsky.social•44 days ago

There’s a boatload of fringe literature that pushes radical, even wacky, ideas. Just because it’s in print, doesn’t mean it passes constitutional muster.

jlstudt.bsky.social•44 days ago

Yep. I write lots of things and I’m not all that smart.

factsmustwin.bsky.social•44 days ago

My favorite part is when he insults the judge, as if the judge is just dumb for not knowing about it.

1. It's that fringe, and
2. Who says he doesn't know about it? I know about it and I'm not even a lawyer. Doesn't mean he has to take it seriously. Wishprudence isn't precedent.

ilgreven.bsky.social•44 days ago

I mean, there is also an entire literature against vaccinations.

Doesn't mean it's any less wrong.

dalassa.bsky.social•44 days ago

This Wurman guy must be new to federal judges. Or judges in general.

dougwar40k.bsky.social•44 days ago

"Oh, that's actually fine, because you're being tried as a pirate."

himboatlaw.bsky.social•42 days ago

Pope isn’t that a little insulting…to trash? My garbage is way nice than this shitbird.

stevetheduck.bsky.social•44 days ago

Ian is the epitome of maga. Truth is not an obstacle but a delay.

Idiots all

meada.bsky.social•44 days ago

Maybe Wurman "... doesn't know that he just doesn't know"... ?

karenrobz.bsky.social•44 days ago

Old federal law clerk says yes. Never thought that frenzied Liberty Tree batshittery would find such purchase. Now it’s in the White House.

starwielder.bsky.social•44 days ago

People like him are the same ones who spoke about a large amount of literature supporting their outlandish ideas during covid. He won't, nor does he want to, learn. We're at the point in our society where millions of people don't know how to vet sources and instead equate facebook with academia.

jeff-the-geek.bsky.social•44 days ago

Someone else I follow on here ( @rexchapman.bsky.social ) posts exchanges where he does just that do idiots: says No.

https://bsky.app/profile/rexchapman.bsky.social/post/3lgh4qirxlk2h

jaksays.bsky.social•44 days ago

Moon law has come a long way

hseher.bsky.social•44 days ago

Go to hell ilan

maledicta.bsky.social•44 days ago

Alito expliclty said in the bump stock ban case that originalism doesn't matter when the text is clear. That even though the Congress that banned machineguns in 1934 would have considered a bump stock a machinegun, it wouldn't matter because the "text is clear, and we must follow it."

oggie.bsky.social•44 days ago

I still feel like there's a chance he somehow goes against his words here when the 14a eo shows up, but since I suspect they are just going to decline to take it up it probably won't get far enough for him to say anything.

burningambulance.bsky.social•44 days ago

I look forward to defense attorneys mounting sovereign citizen defenses. "The phrase 'not subject to the jurisdiction thereof' cuts both ways, Your Honor. My client should be released immediately as, according to the president, the law he is supposed to have violated does not apply to him."

libertyogre.bsky.social•44 days ago

I'm pretty sure Dick Wolf put that specific sov cit bullshit in an episode and now even more people think it's fucking real.

flamingtwits.bsky.social•44 days ago

Wurman is my least favorite X-Man

markfromthedark.bsky.social•43 days ago

is the entire literature in the room with us now

coolrickjd.bsky.social•44 days ago

I love that in the comments to the original post, there are current law students at Univ of Minnesota, where he teaches, saying how racist and insensitive he is IN THE CLASSROOM.

lawzag.bsky.social•44 days ago

You take that back. My reddit post was a masterpiece

justinlawguy.bsky.social•44 days ago

It was great. Fascinated. Umm, unrelatedly, have you considered therapy?

lawzag.bsky.social•44 days ago

Just because sovereign citizeness didn't work for all of those other people, doesn't mean it won't work for me.

wankerjustice.bsky.social•44 days ago

Just like little Johnny, I like the way you think.

revtravis.bsky.social•44 days ago

Right. The judge has other options.

segalmr.bsky.social•44 days ago

The Trump era supplies strong evidence that if a "sovereign citizen" were elected president there'd soon be a robust group of scholars, pundits, and even judges who would say "actually, that guy is making sense."

danisaacs.bsky.social•44 days ago

I mean SCOTUS basically said the President *is* a sovereign citizen, and not subject to the laws of the United States of America.

tmcatee.bsky.social•44 days ago

I LOVE sovereign citizens. They got me out of 2 tickets by fucking the docket I was on.

And I got to actually hear one of them use the fringe thing! Couldn't stop laughing...

mbl3413.bsky.social•44 days ago

I for one think all fundamental rights should be decided on upvote percentage.

hollywooddfpd.bsky.social•44 days ago

Teach the controversy!

annlaabs.bsky.social•44 days ago

There's an "entire literature" of idiots claiming the Earth is flat, doesn't mean anyone should listen to them.

gedtophd.bsky.social•44 days ago

Ken, is Ilan Wurman a good lawyer?

mrcole332.bsky.social•44 days ago

Nfn, but is there anything to that Admiralty Court stuff?

bearsaremean.com•44 days ago

If Im reading this right and they think "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" does not apply to foreigners (or their kids), then illegal immigrants are immune from arrest, we have no jurisdiction over them either.

So.

Have fun with that maga.

kalanyr.bsky.social•44 days ago

It does seem to reduce to a statement that you are allowed to shoot them and they are allowed to shoot you if taken seriously. But then you get into the Laws of War and it immediately collapses because the idea that unarmed people entering your territory are combatants is pants on heads.

markfromthedark.bsky.social•43 days ago

all you have to do is write a few papers and a book and pretty soon you have an Entire Literature and there are no more laws

sinycalbytch.bsky.social•44 days ago

This is 100% the argument I'm going to make for any of my immigrant clients going forward if this nonsense gains any traction.

bearsaremean.com•44 days ago

that seems to be their argument, right, that foreigners (and any children they have) are subject to the laws of another country. therefore, not ours.

I swear these people cannot shoot themselves in the foot fast enough, its their favorite thing

buttmatt.bsky.social•44 days ago

I don’t know, I think it’s great that Trump is saying immigrants aren’t subject to our laws. IMO it’s a masterful gambit to make it the law that only foreign courts have jurisdiction over them.

bearsaremean.com•44 days ago

4D CHESS!

sinycalbytch.bsky.social•44 days ago

That is exactly what they are arguing & it's absolutely going to bite them in the ass. Then they are gonna try to whine, "noooo not like that!"

Sorry losers, you got what you wanted!

bearsaremean.com•44 days ago

Ive never even seen them rant about the 14th, Im sure they dont love birthright citizenship but its not an obsession either

so the "solution" to the "problem" they dont actually have, is a green light to the one they really do (in their opinion). their blind hate burns them yet again.

tobellz.bsky.social•44 days ago

I can have a chatbot generate a lengthy text on the subject arguing that the 14th Amendment of the Constitution doesn't apply to immigrants because they are made of cheese.

themastiff.bsky.social•44 days ago

Ooo... do it with the 2nd!

dextrosity.bsky.social•44 days ago

This guy is a ConLaw professor???

nopoopforyou.bsky.social•44 days ago

Both sides = “my side and the rest of the world get equal time and weight”

lurkymclurk.bsky.social•44 days ago

More like I’mlame Wormman

chrislabarthe.bsky.social•44 days ago

Given all the gold fringe at Mar-a-Lago, are we sure Trump isn't merely an Admiralty President

kelong.bsky.social•44 days ago

This is the perfect analogy.

hardwarelust.bsky.social•41 days ago

The problem with Wurman's "entire literature" is that it's nothing but a bunch of paranoid QAnon level trash written by morons.

To say they're ignoring it is a good thing.

pymundgenealogy.com•44 days ago

I'm sure you've seen that piece from the Canadian judge who said "once and for all, I *did* read the 'literature', and you're stark raving mad"

dalassa.bsky.social•44 days ago

Random Sov Cit to me: so in the case Battle…

Me: okay, bring that up in court, just sign here

Them: this is under duress

Me: bring it up in court

I think that one signed something from the uniform commercial code or something

dalassa.bsky.social•44 days ago

I am not explaining that a case in California state court from the 1970s doesn’t hold in 2025 in another US state

pymundgenealogy.com•44 days ago

For the uninitiated, via @loweringthebar.bsky.social: