Just as in the US, conservative media is whipping up a ‘crisis of men’ as an excuse to blame the left for the entirely foreseeable consequences of right-wing policy. You think Tories are gonna do shit about underfunded education and falling wages?
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If there's any more clear evidence of patriarchy, it's that articles about women making more money are written in the first place, and treated as a "crisis"
Women fight for equal pay, and men fight for "more pay than women or else we're going to have a problem"
The whole ordeal is also: (as explained by Tom Nicholson in a stream) the pay gap seems to barely been closed, it seems barely equal pay, which is only for people in their 20s, after that age the gap grows and women earn less
Yeah the narrowed and massaged statistics i.e. "16-24" like, what happens when you include 25? 30?
16 year olds can't get college degrees and careers, so, yeah, I can see a 16-24 year old girl earning more in tips as a waitress because ALSO patriarchy
Yes, why does the narrative have to be that things work for men OR women? How about fair wages for all? We literally make EVERYTHING into poles and winning and losing. It’s getting old af.
They sure seem cagey about their statistics (like, who cares about age 16-18 employment?) which makes me wonder if it could be headlined “Doctors Earn More than Video Game Streamers on Average.”
My god the hate that women get online from even average dudes much less from the far right wing if we reacted to it proportionally we wouldn’t have knitted sweet pink pussy hats we’d have armed ourselves with assault weapons.
Isn't this super industry specific? For the past ~3 decades in Silicon Valley, Software Engineers have ruled the roost - high pay, stupid perks, etc. - and most FAANG compares are at least, AT LEAST 75+% male. Avg. SWE salary in CA is ~$145k, and that's *before* bonus, equity, perks, etc
Since the original articled referenced in the reskeet is behind a paywall, does anyone know what metric of women earning more then men they are using here?
Because you can use 'pay for the same work', 'pay for the same amount of hours worked', 'average over a year' or 'lifetime earnings' and they
Alright wow there was a lot of trash in that. Turns out the Center for Social Justice are in deep with the Torys so there's a whole lot of blaming things on porn, fatherlessness and yes even violent video games. They aren't really doing their own research though and are drawing mostly from the UK
family resources survey, which I'm gonna assume means the raw stats are fine. So yeah, young men are earning less on a year-by-year basis in the UK. Also performing worse in school, which is hardly restricted to the UK, and more likely to be unemployed. The CSJ does say this is probably due to the
UK's reduction in it's manufacturing industry and other blue-collar typically male-driven work which seems like a pretty reasonable statement to me, factually speaking.
So yeah, hardly a novel observation, and one I ultimately have sympathy for. The objection I would have is the framing
- the CSJ study itself mentions Britons as having felt like things have 'gone too far' in favour of women, which is to me just obviously non-sequiturial; why does women's progress contribute at all to there being fewer masculine-coded jobs? (To be fair to the CSJ, they do say they don't think it's
all paint a pretty dramatically different picture here.
Also the amount more is pretty significant here as well. If it's just a few percentage points difference in pay for the same work but overall men are still earning more in the other categories is hardly a crisis for men? But I can't check
I’m always baffled by the “we haven’t shown a positive vision for non-toxic masculinity.” WTF? They’re freaking everywhere. That’s most of society. How about…Steph curry? Or Reacher (character and actor) if we need someone big and strong
Because women did not end up creating huge hateful online communities that resulted in mass shootings, armies of tedious podcasters, and electing batshit crazy clowns to send us into ww3
Taking the "men in crisis" nonsense seriously. They're not in crisis. They're just having a tantrum. This could be fixed with social and criminal sanctions if there were the political will.
There is a crisis on the topic of men and it needs to be sorted out. That is not the same as pandering to their whining and giving them what they want. We are probably in agreement on what should be done.
The good ole "look what you made me do" excuse for bad behavior. As if depression, isolation, and violence are the natural response to seeing pronouns in an email.
There is absolutely counter messaging that works for this and the real problem has nothing to do with men feeling bullied by "wokeness" or whatever. It's far worse to say, "The economy is fine, actually," than to fight sexism.
This is a very common response and I disagree with it! Men are not being radicalized by online speech in a vacuum. They are being radicalized by a vast right-wing propaganda apparatus that is telling them they are under threat.
I don't think people realize how hard schools are working to support the social and emotional needs of boys in modern society just to be completely undermined by the right-wing media apparatus.
All of us could stand to be nicer online, but that's not a sufficient explanation of what's happening with men. Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Fox et al have spent years telling them "Leftists will call you toxic just for playing Fortnite!!!"
If people getting mean comments just for existing online explained radicalization, every single woman with an online presence would have become a literal militant by now.
Also, no one cares if you play Fortnight! People get annoyed about all the whining about games being "woke" but no one cares if you actually play and enjoy them. I never played any of the GoW games(gears or god) because they felt excessively masculine, but I never made it anyone else's problem!
Also the solution to America's political problems cannot be "tens of millions of left-leaning people must show perfect message discipline on social media" — I am amazed at how often people suggest this as a real political strategy! https://bsky.app/profile/loki1001.bsky.social/post/3ljkvkukjws2g
Even if that were possible you could not stop trolls from impersonating left-wingers.
Somehow, the right wing in the US has achieved power while having outright Nazis on their fringes and even their standard-bearers embrace wacky positions.
I lost count of the number of times right wing media said "the LEFT" was evil because of some mean tweet that got 2 reposts and 3 likes was a little bit mean to right wingers.
Exactly, random right-wingers are also extremely rude (and worse) online! The fact that you're not constantly hearing about it as a liability for Republicans is precisely why it *has* to be a mainstream media/framing issue. https://bsky.app/profile/melari.bsky.social/post/3ljkvqnapw22a
And they actually put they're evil online into power! The Dems have never been within a thousand miles of letting toxic tumblr personalities loose on the federal government the way the DOGE Nazis are. They are literally named from online!
Where can we slot in the idea."It is impossible to outflank a dogshit do nothing political party that refuses to counter anything put out by its enemies"? Because that's the biggest thing. It's impossible to beat on the scoreboard, anyone , when the dynamic is a useless silent liberal party.
“Democrats shouldn’t engage in identity politics” means that queer/trans people and Black people and immigrants should not speak in public or online or in classrooms or in research papers lest it force a Democratic politician to take a definitive stance on anything uncomfortable or unfamiliar.
You realize people communicated before the internet, right? The idea that its harder to keep mesaages consistent on the internet, where we all see what your saying, than in barbershops and workplaces is laughable.
Or, to put another way: Message discipline is extremely important, but none of us have a good yardstick in which to acknowledge that message discipline is quite unlikely to be as unified (in tone, in presentation, in consistency, etc) in social media as it is among physical congregations.
The intentional misunderstanding of “toxic masculinity” is such a perfect encapsulation of the whole problem. It names the problem that men are prevented from expressing emotions and building meaningful friendships— toxic to men! But bad faith people say “you’re calling men toxic how dare”
Right - I mean, the question is basically if counterprogramming Andrew Tate would help simply by existing, and the problem is that plenty of counterprogramming already exists!
You can not counter this with better rhetoric. There is no way to better rhetoric your way to people who will only encounter your rhetoric filtered through hostile actors and which are fed to the audience by hostile algorithms.
I wish the left had a better rhetorical counter to this. For the feminists and my lady friends in my life, the first response is to deny/dismiss it outright, and treat it as a dog whistle for MRA type stuff. I can’t say I blame them, but that just plays into pushing men into the alt right pipeline.
Oh don’t get me wrong I’ve got zero sympathy for dudes like that. But quite frankly if the left cannot offer a viable alternative for “the boys” I can’t see how this isn’t just gonna keep getting worse with each passing generation. It’s a matter of political pragmatism
I see how my wording came off that way—that wasn’t my intent. I wasn’t saying we shouldn’t acknowledge real issues, just that rhetoric has strategic consequences. But I can see why you read it differently, and that’s something I need to reflect on. I appreciate the pushback and your analogy.
"Look what you made me do!" is the abuser's creed. Fascism is abuse writ large. I do not give a good goddamn about fascists made to feel bad for supporting fascist beliefs. People like you who concern troll in their behalf enable them.
Framing any critique of rhetoric as ‘concern trolling’ is a convenient way to shut down discussion, but it sidesteps the real issue. No one here is excusing fascists or absolving them of responsibility for their choices. The point is that rhetoric does have consequences, whether we like it or not
If the goal is to reduce the number of people radicalized into reactionary movements, then acknowledging how certain responses push people further in that direction isn’t ‘concern trolling’—it’s strategic thinking.
Ah, yes, the same argument as "We shouldn't hurt the MAGAts' feelings!"
If men don't want to be called trash, they can stop *being *trash. I don't care about the feelings of men and boys who go around saying shit like "Your body, my choice" - or those who say "OK but what about my feelings??"
I think ultimately the left doesn't and can't have a 'mens right's' wing, because it's just not what the left is politically and doesn't really make sense. That's not to say that the left doesn't have room for men with problems, it's just that those problems are also shared by non-men that can also
be included. By contrast, feminism exists under the leftist umbrella because it is interested in addressing problems that specifically existed for women that were caused by not exactly men but the 'patriarchy', that is to say an ideology of female submission. I just don't think there's an equivalent
of that oppressing men *specifically*. What there are however are issues that can disproportionately affect men, or affect men in different ways that can be dealt with as a subcategory of the movement interested in dealing with those issues. The best example I can think of here is homelessness,
men are far more likely to be homeless then women (iirc anyway), and thus any movement towards addressing homelessness will disproportionately help men. I'm not sure I'd say successful suicide rates are a good metric for overall mental health, but if you wanted to lower suicide rates over all then
you'd be disproportionately helping men as well. Both of these are very noble causes and both of these are also *VERY* much left wing. Tack on prison abolition or basically any justice reform issue there too. If men are indeed, or were to be, disproportionately poor then what you'd actually want
I think the left can have a men's rights wing, it just wouldn't look anything like the men's rights movement. A movement to ban sports betting and crypto would benefit a lot of people, but the biggest beneficiaries would be men.
For sure! I gave some other examples down the thread of homelessness and any justice reform issue as very very much things you could adopt to help men in particular. Of course all of these are lefty movements already, but certainly something I'd like to see more resources put towards as well.
The problem with her rhetoric is that it will do numbers and instead of countering it the Labor government will start parroting it by the end of the week.
Men have been allowed to own women as chattel for millennia. And still do in some parts of the world.
Women get a few decades of self determination and men act like they’re in a total crisis of masculinity…because women get to be people and sometimes out compete them. 🙄
I hate these "what has happened to our men" takes. I have two sons, one gay and one straight, both "woke" and compassionate and educated, who could outsmart, outrun and outclimb most conservative whiners in a heartbeat. No woman or system is stopping men from doing what they want!
There are loads of positive men in the public eye. The question is why don’t these guys find them appealing?
Women did well not only with no female role models, but with society demonising them for trying to succeed. Why can’t men just do similar if they can’t find a role model of their taste?
What man shit do these guys need to do to "thrive"? I was a teenager in the 80s and you could be an asshole or be a real person. Are they saying it's elemental for male development to be an asshole? That seems like a flaw in the perception of proper masculine behavior, not a failing of other people.
A Modest Proposal:
Encourage young men to view being daddies & household managers as attractive to women. You just want to cook and wear nice clothes and do carpentry in a nice house and take care of kids? Do we have a career for YOU! Women will fight to let you move in and have epic sex.
every time someone bleat about bad male representation in media I check the top grossing films list and with very few exceptions they're about a straight white (or lion) dude doing traditionally masculine heroism, what are these maniacs talking about
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If there's any more clear evidence of patriarchy, it's that articles about women making more money are written in the first place, and treated as a "crisis"
Women fight for equal pay, and men fight for "more pay than women or else we're going to have a problem"
16 year olds can't get college degrees and careers, so, yeah, I can see a 16-24 year old girl earning more in tips as a waitress because ALSO patriarchy
It's awful the whole way down
White boy does poorly in school: "WE MUST END THIS CRISIS OF MEN!!"
You need to shut that shit down fast.
Because you can use 'pay for the same work', 'pay for the same amount of hours worked', 'average over a year' or 'lifetime earnings' and they
https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/library/lost-boys
So yeah, hardly a novel observation, and one I ultimately have sympathy for. The objection I would have is the framing
Also the amount more is pretty significant here as well. If it's just a few percentage points difference in pay for the same work but overall men are still earning more in the other categories is hardly a crisis for men? But I can't check
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/01/upshot/trump-men-masculinity-gender.html?smid=url-share
It’s all narrative. These guys don’t even really believe it!
Identify real problem: Men feel powerless because their ability to sustain themselves has been intentionally destroyed by corporations.
Offer bullshit solution: This is because women have rights.
A bad counter to this is to deny the real problem exists.
Offer a better solution to the real problem.
"[..] value traditional masculine values such as courage, resilience and competitiveness."
We live in hell 🙃
(do not go be mean to this person!!!)
https://bsky.app/profile/glimmerofthechyron.bsky.social/post/3ljkojrqr3k27
THAT's the driver, not random lefties being rude.
https://bsky.app/profile/loki1001.bsky.social/post/3ljkvkukjws2g
Somehow, the right wing in the US has achieved power while having outright Nazis on their fringes and even their standard-bearers embrace wacky positions.
https://bsky.app/profile/melari.bsky.social/post/3ljkvqnapw22a
It’s crazy how much we infer about real people from such a fake experience.
This is a new class of problem for a new medium.
This metaphor needs more clarity!
https://bsky.app/profile/moiradonegan.bsky.social/post/3ljganp6jjk2m
(I also like how you added "regardless of factual accuracy." Just admitting that no matter how horrible men are, we're not allowed to acknowledge it.)
If men don't want to be called trash, they can stop *being *trash. I don't care about the feelings of men and boys who go around saying shit like "Your body, my choice" - or those who say "OK but what about my feelings??"
Women get a few decades of self determination and men act like they’re in a total crisis of masculinity…because women get to be people and sometimes out compete them. 🙄
Women did well not only with no female role models, but with society demonising them for trying to succeed. Why can’t men just do similar if they can’t find a role model of their taste?
Encourage young men to view being daddies & household managers as attractive to women. You just want to cook and wear nice clothes and do carpentry in a nice house and take care of kids? Do we have a career for YOU! Women will fight to let you move in and have epic sex.
“This is unfortunate, we should let women earn more”
“Women are earning more than men”
“THE END IS NIGH”
I wonder what the animating principle here is
“More men get degrees, women are intellectually inferior and should not have the vote”
*** equal access to education is allowed ***
“Women are getting more degrees than men! The system is rigged and we now have a crisis!”