I think your view of humanity is extremely negative and you should have more respect for your fellow people. Capitalism is a system built on individualism to the point of greed. Doesn't make it human nature. I'd argue human nature is quite the opposite.
Survival is human nature and as a cooperative species, greed goes against our function and genetics. Culturally we may be greedy but I don't believe its human nature. To me that's like assuming that because you can see an elephant riding a bike in a circus that its in their nature to do so.
I'm sure lots of people on this thread will be surprised and interested to know BOTH parties in the US are liberal. That's why this guy isn't republican for posting this.
Being on the left implies being against capitalism, and we all saw how biden/kamala love billionaires, just want them to pay 10%.
I mean, they literally can't, for the same reason a normally functioning human can't suddenly just think "hey actually I should just die, come to think of it"; it is teleologically incompatible with their ideology and therefore cognitive bias fully excludes it
That kind of thing can only be changed via a thorough, methodical, and gradual dismantling of their worldview via mandatory reeducation, or a crushing blow to it via some personal or institutional catastrophe, save in the very rare cases where disaffection and natural inquisitiveness manage it
The latter of which accounts for virtually all the communists currently active in the US, save those few who are still alive and active from the heyday of the Civil Rights Era or children brought up by them.
Liberals don't have an ideology. They consume and reproduce liberalism entirely by social construction, and not by will. Because of this the vast majority of liberals do eventually come to see the profit motive as a flaw when faced with it. The problem is getting them to do anything about it.
Ideology, with its practical partner cognitive bias, is a fundamental part of consciousness and can't be disposed of. The only question is whether it's conscious or unconscious.
Oh no, they have an ideology, never doubt that. It's just, for them, an unconscious one, imposed on them by forces they don't understand and are unaware of.
I plead for mercy, I am mostly just trying to spoof myself into productivity mode so I can get started on this mountain of schoolwork looming over me 😞
Yes to capitalism but it shouldn't be capitalism at any cost. We shouldn't have a CEO who makes 100k times more in total compensation than one of their employees.
Capitalism, not democracy, is the system to which we haven’t found a better alternative. Oligarchs both in America and Russia want everywhere to be an oligarchy
Pretty much all of vol.III devoted to this whole profit stuff, that's all. It's like when Larry "Horseman" Summers posted how it would be great if someone would do, like, an academic study of this whole, um, profit stuff... "gosh we just can't figure out why kids don't want to die at work"
You just need to believe in America [capitalism] and everything will be fine! We will give you band-aids to fix the bad parts of capitalism and make it good again
This is what I tried to explain to ppl after 2016. Imagine you had a playground that was falling apart, mostly minor issues but some actually dangerous ones. 3 candidates running for Playground Manager. CanA says "let's redo the whole thing and make it actually safe for everyone".
CanB says "slap a new coat of paint on there and file off the obvious rust so things can continue decaying like they have been" and CanC says "blow it up lol I hate brown kids". Like of course I'll vote for B after you've torpedoed A, to avoid C. But don't expect me to be ENTHUSIASTIC about it.
If any liberal sees categories of problems without noticing these problems are pars tota machina of this dysfunctional system, then they are too young, too old, or too stupid
and a society entirely oriented around profit fosters that behavior and entrenches it in everything we do and how we relate to other people instead of trying to combat that
When an entire culture/governing principle is based around the Sword of Damocles of "You WILL produce and consume OR you WILL be made homeless/imprisoned", and add that to an economic system that relies on infinite growth and yes, you have a society entirely beholden to and entrenched in profit.
had a buyer who would constantly tell me that my products would sell better to end consumers if i just gave him more margin. it’s comical on it’s surface but the reality of that idiocy is that it shafts consumers
this is so stupid, capitalism is 200-400 years old depending on who you ask, so in the entire history of humanity it's a fucking blip. capitalism is neither the best we've had nor inevitable
If you look at the ancient tribes and kingdoms, they were practicing capitalism when interacting with each other, when not fighting. Trade was alway mutually beneficial. As a practice, capitalism has been around in some form basically forever.
Social capitalism (Nordic countries), not Socialism. Central planning and state ownership of the means of production are both central tenets and fatal flaws of Socialism. You’re right about RW groups always mucking it up, but sometimes it’s LW.
Get over the name calling and think about why every such experiment has failed. I’m not saying capitalism is inherently good, it works with our nature, not against it, but it needs to be heavily regulated to keep the power dynamics equal.
Yes and no. Profit itself doesn't happen to be the bulk of the problem, it is merely an incentive. It is the distribution of it or lack thereof, which needs to be questioned. Misinformation and oligarchy just are the tools to get the 99% to act against their own interests.
If we would say that the consolidation of wealth at the top of capital structures equates to power, then the 1% have too much of both. We forfeit our own freedoms at the expense of allowing such inequality to be a feature.
To be misinformed by an oligarchy, is to say this is freedom.
Liberals support voters thinking about ethical issues relating to the definition, distribution, use of economic power to resolve interpersonal conflicts of preferences, allocate resources. They support policies to improve economic outcomes. Conservatives are market utopians who do not.
I suppose few liberals support eliminating the profit motive entirely, it's topically more about the specifics of the case or context, probably more likely to want to use it when it can be made ethically appropriate, but some might. Conservatives accept no alternatives to profit-based mechanisms.
If you're concerned too many things in our society are governed by the profit motive, maybe it makes more sense to direct your ire to the champions of relying only on that mechanism, conservatives, rather than liberals who oppose them, suggest adjustments, corrections, alternatives to it.
It's pretty much the same thing.
ruSSian oligarch are just oil gangster crooks.
American oligarchs are mafia style crooks in a variety of fields.
American crooks are jealous of ruSSian crooks because the ruSSian gov't makes sure no one interferes with them.
American crooks want to do that here.
Some of those to blame are the perverts and deviants who voted for guy who simulates a bj on a mike thinking that'll fix it like a limp d'ck and grab 'em by p'ssy is yeah I'd want to do that, too!
Maybe if they abandoned capitalist and put policies that actually address real problems, the disinformation wouldn't work on people who aren't already too far gone
People are demanding change, and liberals are promising to maintain the status quo. Republicans are offering to turn the whole system upside down. Please remind me who the conservatives are?
The status quo meaning "treating gay people like human beings who can love each other and not shoving them into camps and denying their existence"? You mean the status quo of like...maybe a decade barely?
The status quo here is business as usual for politicians: voting in their own self-interests while we all suffer, whether it's under conservatives actively harming minorities and the poor, or liberals abandoning them to the effects put in place by them
She stated she wouldn't do anything differently than the sitting and incredibly unpopular president. She campaigned with the Cheneys. She followed Trump on immigration and taxation. She told people concerned about Palestine to shut up and sit down. Kamala represents the establishment and status quo.
It's not disinformation that liberal plans involve: tough on crime, no M4A, no UBI, pro crypto, anti-Palestinian, heightened border security, not packing the courts, light on voter rights, pro electoral college, weak on Trans issues when not outright transphobic, pro-corporate
No worries, I just really think people need to quit treating political parties like sports teams.
They're supposed to work for us and earn our votes but it seems like voters are instead treated like it is OUR fault when they lose (and thus turn people against each other).
Of course I'm scared. I'm 40 and just started transitioning.
I'm married, have a mortgage, a career, a kid. I have a TON to lose.
That does not mean I'm going to sing the praises of Democrats because they're not vocally calling for my death. They're letting the entire world burn for decorum.
As a Brit, watching across the pond it scares me to see what America is doing because for some reason, we like to try and imitate what's going on over there.
When you've got healthcare, transport, infrastructure etc as a "for profit" system, you fail the people who need it.
“When you've got healthcare, transport, infrastructure etc as a "for profit" system, you fail the people who need it”
Very true! And those who think this is okay anyway are those who mistakenly think they won’t be adversary affected and those they care about won’t be deprived of basic healthcare
Guess you’re right but why did the guy hawking Trump bibles and Trump NFTs from his country club for profit while in cahoots with the richest man in the world win then
Tangentially, it's why they go for body shaming or transphobia etc if they want to make fun of elon musk. They still think he's secretly a genius and are impressed by his wealth.
No. Loss happens in life naturally. Profit doesn't. Profit is the cream on top that isn't needed for any kind of functioning, it's simply there to fatten - waistlines or wallets.
profit is the surplus value recouped by a capital owner as either personal income or new investable money-capital after they have sold a commodity on the market and re-invested the non-surplus part of the value back into making commodities and paying wages
if i own the funko pop factory and i spend 10 dollars on making a funko pop, four on wages and six on materials, and then i sell it for 15, 5 is the profit. it's a profit i keep, even though a worker(s), who only gets four, actually made like at least 9,
Literally hundreds of thousands of pages have been written before answering all your questions. And if you’re very busy there are thousands of recorded lectures explaining the books
No one should be able to make money from “owning” necessary resources
Have you considered that due to all of the capitalism, we don’t have much time left before we’ve completely fucked the planet. People being able to make more than others? I don’t give a fuck. That’s so selfish and meaningless
Profit is the value of your labor left over for your boss after they pay expenses (which includes you). And no, abolishing profits does not mean abolishing losses. Well in a way it does but that’s not what you’re asking. It just means that workers are paid more.
We need #BasicIncome so we can say no to all of this crazy rich people.
Without the ability to abuse us they will not be as rich. UBI will get rid off all unnecessary bullshit jobs.
I begged and pleaded with someone to not start the liberal equivalent of maga election denialism and she came back to me with conspiracy videos about how she's convinced entire states were stolen
Anything to escape accountability that milquetoast liberal nothingness is less popular than fucking full blown fascism. Must be the left's fault again- wait no it's a conspiracy. Wait no people just want fascism inherently. Yeah. Yeah that's it. Be more fascistic. Yeah. Winning is all that matters
“profit stuff” Russian oligarchs stole all of Russia’s wealth - Trump, Musk, and the Kochs are doing the same here.
More tax cuts for billionaires, more multi-billion dollar contracts for billionaires - we all pay for it. Russians are starving while Putin plays war games. Putin is Trump’s hero
We all blame what we want to blame, isn't that funny? I've had a lot of coworkers who blame funny things for whatever problem they're having, completely unrelated to what's actually causing it. I think ultimately we just have to conclude people aren't that good at connecting A to B. Keep on trying!
Funny how on this loving, respectful, and including (according to posts in my feed) platform one needs to point it out over and over again if not totally agreeing with the other side of the coin
And obviously the attacks and mass blocks because they presume...
A lot of misunderstanding going on. I try not to use the word "liberal" in public spaces. Both our political parties are classically liberal, but most Americans think liberal means "Left of Mitt Romney".
People only see two options for a team. Republicans have become masters of saying the system is rigged and broken, but they blame immigrants and minorities while they pick your pocket. Democrats get hand cuffed by their big corporate and billionaire donors and have watered down “solutions.”
It’s ironic since Crowe, Koch, Musk, Murdoch, Adelson, et all are all millionaire and billionaire donors to Republicans. No one ever brings up Berkshire Hathaway and Blackstone donations to the GOP.
True, but it isn’t like Democrats don’t have a ton of billionaires donating to them, either. GOP messaging wins out because their policy isn’t hampered at all by billionaires where Democrats have a hard time with real populist measures because it turns away their donating class.
Almost like it's the same people dumping money they stole from the workers of the world into the people that run the system that allows that to continue to happen, regardless of "party"
To be fair, neither side actually seems to know what Socialism actually is. Republicans think it’s anything they do t agree with, and dems think it’s not being a Republican.
Oh no our precious Just and Puritan America, sullied only by the sinister and wily Asiatic grip of Communist Vladimir Putin. They say the Russians invented racism and implanted it on our Fair Continent!
I've had liberals continuously tell me on here that capitalism isn't the problem and it's just the Republicans, so yeah. They are. Otherwise California wouldn't have legal slavery.
that's part of the ideological foundation of liberalism (from which both modern-day "liberal" and "conservative" politics descend) dating back to Adam Smith
to escape the tyranny of profits & rents you need some kind of refoundation which rapidly puts you in the domain of socialism, anarchism, &c.
not just supporters of it but cheerleaders. Obama bragging about how much drilling he did, Clinton saying "it's the economy stupid", Biden setting the example of "if you get covid, immediately get back to working". there are many more examples like this. your vocabulary is wrong. learn more words.
the distinction between a liberal/progressive and a communist/anarchist/leftist is class consciousness. antagonism towards the owner class is not part of liberalism, which is why we currently see defeated Dems looking everywhere but "hit the one percent harder" as they gameplan future elections
Liberals are stupid in the same way conservatives are where if you criticize their beloved politicians they assume you must be on the other side of the duopoly
for future historians, in case the user should one day make changes: as i type, the pfp of the person i just replied to is a cartoon of a cat's asshole
Which when rich, one can buy the means to spread (dis)information abundantly. And, misinformation is spreading lies unknowingly. Disinformation is doing it knowingly but not caring about the countless lives they will destroy by doing so.
it's a lot of pro profit propaganda too, the amount of libs I have to debate with and they just stonewall with "well it's the best we have so (some atrocity is justified)" gives me heartburn
In Capitalist society;
1. everything is for sale, from your vote to your soul. Tgere are many eager to sell.
2. You get all the Justice you can afford to buy.
Like so many elders, 'I was a socialist when I was young.' Yeah, well I'm starting to see I was right all along. The uber-greed, profit-driven economy has been laid bare. Almost all roads to the middle class have been pulled; nothing left for working people to do but organize.
It's American oligarchy. Which is essentially the same thing as the whole profit stuff. Money = power. Power corrupts. Corruption leads to propaganda - systematic misinformation.
Democratic party not representing the people + money in politics biggest fraud in history. Ohio and Penn used to be dem strongholds but look at where we are at now.
My city made up a bunch of “panhandling is illegal” signs for every freeway off ramp. Imagine the dent they could have made in the problem if they used that money to actually solve the problem.
The core problem is they shun the working class. @berniesanders08.bsky.social is not wrong. The real question is why don’t they listen to one person on their team that actually “gets it”?
I have no doubt that moneyed interests from foreign countries are influencing the American political process. I have a massive problem with treating this as the primary issue though.
Because 1. The only reason it is even possible for them to do so as easily as they can is because our laws are structured in such a way that openly encourages corruption in the political process, and 2. I guarantee that however much foreign actors abuse these laws to influence the political process,
it is completely fucking dwarfed by home-grown red-blooded patriotic American capitalists using the same legal structures to exert influence on the political process to a much more extensive and much more destructive level than any foreign actor, yes, including Vladimir Putin.
I’m not saying that foreign actors influencing the political process is good or should be ignored, but the greater underlying issue is corruption and lobbying in general, and then there is the even greater underlying issue that is a society completely built around the profit motive above all else.
If you can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge the reality of these issues, and can only stand talking about it when you can turn it into some nationalist horseshit about barbarian hordes from the east banging on the gates of our shining city on a hill,
I seriously question your willingness to actually do anything about any of these issues, and it seems to me you only care about any of it insofar as you can use it to fear-monger about the scary foreigner coming to take over the world, which is complete bullshit.
I mean yeah these are all symptoms created by unfettered capitalism but rampant disinformation and propaganda networks are also what enable completely unfettered capitalism to begin with.
Without a 24/7 brain-melting machine telling you to hate it people are pretty down with socialism and shit lol
Yeah, it’s a feedback loop and removing one factor significantly alters the end result.
I’m not saying “capitalism good w/out disinfo”, I’m saying we would have moved past unfettered capitalism already w/out so much of it, so it’s a worthy problem to tackle.
Liberalism is tied to capitalism. It can never actually stand for left sided policy, because it won't be supported by the big corpo donors it relies on.
They will never move away from "profit" because they benefit from it too under our current system
the answers right in their face but it would require them to stop spending money at target and that’s the only way white people know how to get any dopamine so they choose to be deranged instead
They seem to recognize how their "peers" can be affected by fox news propaganda but never think of the possibility that they could be susceptible to similar influence from MSNBC or CNN when it comes to the corporate friendly lens and right wing framing they always deploy.
I think the world is in a sufficiently dire state that we can acknowledge all three aa being bad, can't we? Capitalism is certainly a root cause, while misinformation and Russian billionaires are the effect, but that doesn't stop them from being exceptionally destructive factors.
saying it's bad for american politicians to be beholden to american billionaires would make democrats look bad. so it has to be russians, because we all know how rich russia is
memories of this years DNC when they had Bernie do his schtick, to be followed by JB Pritzker to say take it from me a real billionaire, and then a fucking credit card CEO. Dems gave a little cookie to the left flank with Bernie, and then showed where their true loyalties lay.
That didn't even used to be a controversial opinion for fuck's sake. Russia is busy enough bombing kids Ukraine and dropping white phosphorus on Syrians, they don't need to fuck with US politics because our neoliberal death cult already did that.
It's far deeper than that. People don't trust politicians. They're increasingly in the pockets of the mega rich. And the "conservatives" reward them with more elected officials doing everything they can to shit on the workforce.
I mean if you allow things like bribery (like the supreme court ruled on recently) insider trading and corpos lobbying for politicians then the profit flow is just open.
So, stopping the flow of profit is what i’m talking about when I mention corruption being an issue.
Yeah, let’s totally advocate for a system that is not currently implemented anywhere, has never succeeded, and has only ever resulted in people reverting back to capitalism.
I disagree. As a matter of fact, I could tell you with some certainly why we're here today. You should look into the Wilkes and Koch. They've fed and funded the misinformation that built America's new right. Capitalism is its own separate problem.
We know what the problems are. The solution start with coming together collectively to handle those problems. No grand standing, no egos, just people working to make it better. Not in a hive mind drone way but voices spreading the message so everyone can hear it. We all learn differently we need.
More people speaking out with the same message but a different way to explain it so everyone can be in the same book and same page. Even the same paragraphs. Making sure the lesson is understood should be our first step.
Hey what if people & companies couldn’t, like, buy land and information and utilities to then hold it for ransom? What if we made sure people could be alive and have agency in their lives before we did other stuff?
Ope, my dad and the newsman said that would be evil unless I can completely explain how it works in a short and clever reply without using any of the words that everyone who thinks about this stuff uses to let you know this is what they’re talking about, sorry :(
Someone on here said i was indoctrinated by putin because i said white liberals weren't the saviors of the black people during the civil rights movement
Quite literally 0 awareness of their party's history, they just see "R did all the bad in this country, D did all the good in this country"
It also belies a really poor understanding of Russia which, while very much right wing capitalist, has not been an oligarchy for probably 2 decades now.
They are living in the most heavily propagandized country in the whole world to start and its admittedly difficult to overcome. This doesn't give them a pass but it does inform us of what we are working against.
A potential of a million people have died in the name of profit for the mic and all liberals have done is put the stupid little fucking flag in your fucking bio and screamed it's a fight for democracy itself.
I am entirely unsurprised that zero democrats have tried to legislate Citizens United. That should have been day one of any serious candidate but fuck if those fat stacks of unmarked bills don't build some after-office contracts.
Comments
Greed is engineered.
Poverty is engineered.
Exploitation is engineered.
The End
I'm old and running low on optimism, my attitude reflects my personal experience. Your mileage may vary, in fact, I really hope it does.
Apparently, there is no scientific consensus on whether greed is human nature or social/cultural. So I think that your guess is as good as mine.
I do think that there is a strong cultural bias favoring it in the USA.
Greed is good.
It was such an iconic movie.
Being on the left implies being against capitalism, and we all saw how biden/kamala love billionaires, just want them to pay 10%.
"They consume and reproduce liberalism entirely by social construction, and not by will."
And you ignored the rest of my post as well.
We are so not gonna make it with literacy like this.
the bio:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_committee_(China)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gosplan
i have a few suggestions
All are connected.
To be misinformed by an oligarchy, is to say this is freedom.
2. I think we need to stop making sweeping statements about groups of people bc it strengthens the division that’s tearing us apart.
3. The liberals I know think it is misinformation, oligarchs, AND the profit stuff (and more).
ruSSian oligarch are just oil gangster crooks.
American oligarchs are mafia style crooks in a variety of fields.
American crooks are jealous of ruSSian crooks because the ruSSian gov't makes sure no one interferes with them.
American crooks want to do that here.
Maybe the Kelogg protests being successful but not reported is part of it?
Maybe we shouldn't take paths that empower people who would kill us in the streets and fill us with building insulation?
I'd sooner trust a politician than a corporation. For what little that is worth.
Or what?
Just for a start.
Hell most of the last one was pretty much just Lina Khan and a lot of them wanted her out if Harris won
And this is from someone who voted for Harris anyway.
They suck and they lose every time they try to appeal to the center.
They're supposed to work for us and earn our votes but it seems like voters are instead treated like it is OUR fault when they lose (and thus turn people against each other).
Are you not afraid of your t getting cut off? I'm afraid for my partner. He started transitioning this year.
Are you not afraid of getting put away? They came for the queers like second off the block.
I'm married, have a mortgage, a career, a kid. I have a TON to lose.
That does not mean I'm going to sing the praises of Democrats because they're not vocally calling for my death. They're letting the entire world burn for decorum.
He bragged about this at a fund raising dinner
Also weird that it's India, FSB usually uses MENA region or Sub Saharan...
FSB doesn't use anything, they got their hands full right now
but I did hear about a hot dog vendor from Moscow
you know, the hot dog vendor
(yes, I know he's got more money than the pope)
When you've got healthcare, transport, infrastructure etc as a "for profit" system, you fail the people who need it.
Very true! And those who think this is okay anyway are those who mistakenly think they won’t be adversary affected and those they care about won’t be deprived of basic healthcare
Have you considered that due to all of the capitalism, we don’t have much time left before we’ve completely fucked the planet. People being able to make more than others? I don’t give a fuck. That’s so selfish and meaningless
Without the ability to abuse us they will not be as rich. UBI will get rid off all unnecessary bullshit jobs.
So is gaslighting.
My heart breaks for my country.
More tax cuts for billionaires, more multi-billion dollar contracts for billionaires - we all pay for it. Russians are starving while Putin plays war games. Putin is Trump’s hero
And obviously the attacks and mass blocks because they presume...
Yup, Bluesky is so different lol
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/definition
to escape the tyranny of profits & rents you need some kind of refoundation which rapidly puts you in the domain of socialism, anarchism, &c.
Do you know what liberalism is, or have we gotten to the point where every dumbshit just uses it for "not conservative".
You're so fucking close.
Not "please don't"
... and the Ocean is not...?
1. everything is for sale, from your vote to your soul. Tgere are many eager to sell.
2. You get all the Justice you can afford to buy.
Without a 24/7 brain-melting machine telling you to hate it people are pretty down with socialism and shit lol
I’m not saying “capitalism good w/out disinfo”, I’m saying we would have moved past unfettered capitalism already w/out so much of it, so it’s a worthy problem to tackle.
I don’t know where you ever got the idea we think existing purely to maximize profits was a good thing.
OTOH, you don’t seem to take wide internet misinformation seriously.
They will never move away from "profit" because they benefit from it too under our current system
DNC chair: people should really care about norms more.
'hmm well I'd say I'm fiscally conservative but socially very liberal. the problems are bad but their causes...their causes are very good')
doin them jokemups
making a funny
Why is this so hard for them to fucking understand
Holy fucking shit I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
There’s no accountability.
So, stopping the flow of profit is what i’m talking about when I mention corruption being an issue.
Quite literally 0 awareness of their party's history, they just see "R did all the bad in this country, D did all the good in this country"
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ANTI WAR PARTY OF PEACE????
it's disgusting, guys...
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3819814-democrats-introduce-constitutional-amendment-to-reverse-citizens-united-campaign-finance-ruling/amp/