If the person has given some clear indication of being a fascist, then they would not qualify for the above person's "civil" requirement, so you're not really disagreeing
I agree both that civil speech should be welcome AND that if they had these qualities, they would've voted for Harris.
And note the daily decrease in the percentage of the popular vote that DT actually got, btw. No massive mandate (unless it was for Ds seeing that they have work to do)
Right. The thing I've learned is that they aren't good people. I get that they think they are, but they aren't. I have family that voted for him, too, that I've loved my whole life...and that I now know aren't good people.
What you're being led by the reins to believe, that people are bad for their political beliefs, is something you have got to resist. This country is your country, and it is my country and the only way to keep it that way is for us to communicate.
People are not bad because of their political beliefs; they are bad because of their character. Because of the rape culture they espouse and the criminals they support. It has 0 to do with politics and everything to do with their character.
50% of the country didn't go vote for the man because of rape culture and his criminality. You're demonizing half the country. The people who voted for him voted for him precisely because of his politics IN SPITE OF the things you detest.
Voting for a criminal/sexual abuser to lead the country means they have shitty morals. One isn't a good human, in spite of their propensity to rape women. They are mutually exclusive. And saying so isn't "demonizing", ffs. Grow up.
So, people are only capable of being civil and acting in good faith if they vote the same way that you do?? That sounds every bit as cultish as maga. Literally a religious belief.
Literally nothing like what I said, but thanks for playing along!
Both sides are not the same.
We don’t disagree on policy. Other people’s right to exist and be left alone in their life choices is not up for discussion.
My bodily autonomy is not the governments or your business.
Just the right to take a piss in peace if you work at the capitol?
Or the right to say what happens with my body?
Or the rights of that gay couple to get married?
What ever happened to live and let live, or mind your own business?
Rights aren’t pie, more for them doesn’t mean less for you.
I have no interest in what you do with your body. Abortion rights has become a states issue and that’s what it was intended to be. You can be pro-choice and understand that. And it is pretty much what you said. Very cultish.
I know you don’t Babs. But RFK does, and JD does, and a whole bunch of these weird misogynistic men that have started crawling the halls of government do.
You're certainly confused about what a fascist truly is. At its core, fascism is about loyalty to tribe, ethnic identity, religion, tradition, or, in a word, the nation—but not the people who make up that nation. Fascism prioritizes symbols of unity over actual unity.
Look at Trump’s cabinet picks—billionaires and cronies serving their own interests, not policies that uplift everyday Americans. There's nothing for the people in that. It’s loyalty to power, not progress. But go off.. 😑
Nah, it doesn't matter how they got to fascism actually. I'm not about to sit here while someone's boot is on my neck wondering if that boot belongs to someone ontologically evil or just part-time evil.
I disagree. They were turned, and indoctrinated by a complete enshitification of the media they consumed. (Thanks, Regan.)
They continue to support him because he creates a safe and inclusive place for their collective ignorance, unfounded and misplaced grievances, and their manufactured hate.
He makes them feel okay about denying science, education, math, and higher learning. He makes their racism, bigotry , and other ignorant isms mainstream.
You undervalue the effect of constant lies and a media platform constantly feeding soundbites to support those lies. NO different than what Hitler and Goebbels did with the same result.
Most Americans live on soundbites and podcasters. The days of real reporters have past into history
no? it's not exactly a mystery as to why liberals often enjoy constructing elaborate fantasies of the suffering of oppressed peoples for the crimes of not supporting them by default, it's just really gross
of course some people were genuinely duped into thinking the centre had their best interests in mind, we've all been there, but those people aren't usually the ones being like "and now you'll all suffer i hope you got what you wanted"
I hope every broke, gun loving, minimum wage, maga, Christian nationalist bro and his meth teeth girlfriend are relegated to Walmart ramen and grilled cheese because they can’t afford what they voted for.
At least for a little while.
Like an addict hitting rock bottom before the healing begins.
I’ll talk to any rational person.
They have lost the ability for rational thought. If they hadn’t… well, see above.
We don’t have to care why they’re in a cult to understand that they are.
I'm not afraid to talk to people who disagree, but when their disagreements are based on obvious bold faced lies and right-wing media fueled delusions, and they act like MAGA asshats, I have zero tolerance for that bullshit. I don’t live in the suburbs, either.
Then exclude them. But in fairness, it will not take Trump long to bring everything crashing down and then more & more of his voters will realize they were endlessly lied to. That is his strength.
That's the problem though. Many of them won't. People act like the subjects talked about are complex. They aren't. Act like we've only been talking these issues for a few years. No. America has been "debating" these issues for generations. Hundreds of years. If they haven't by now. They won't.
If they haven’t figured it out yet. What makes you think it’ll be different now?
Maybe the difference this time is that we’re not there to save them, and coddle them, and say, “there there, it’s okay.”
Put them in his path and let them face the consequences they have wrought.
His political record. His funding. His taxes. His criminal record. His racism. His misogyny. His bigotry. His associations with pedophiles and criminals. His international contacts. His self enrichment. Infrastructure. Healthcare. Hiding gov documents. Russia. Blackmail…
should I go on?
Or maybe we just don’t want to. 🤷♀️ It’s not FEAR that keeps me from reaching out to include total assholes in my conversation, it’s that I have no desire to waste my time listening to them spout nonsense and try to pick a fight. Life’s too short for that shit.
Afraid? Of what a witless idiot who voted for a convicted rapist and felon? Someone who cheated a Childrens cancer charity, and set up a fake University?
The problem Skippy is from the get-go you knew this monster was a viper and you still voted for him. Do you not see the conundrum?
I wish the truth were more complicated, but this is basically it. Supporting Trump in 2024 basically requires you to be either tragically misinformed, and usually unwilling to correct that, or just being a mean POS with some awful views about other people.
Exactly. His words echo those spoken by the Germans when Hitler came into power. Being tolerant of the intolerant never ends well. Why would anyone listen to the opinions of those who wish you harm?
My local experience is that people - family included - don't believe "crying wolf" democrats. They just want cheaper rent and groceries. That doesn't make them bad people. Democrats simply failed to be seen as believable.
Online, I found most trump voters dreadfully embroiled in vile meanness.
On food or art, sure. But you can’t have an opinion on objective fact, you’re either right or wrong. Most of MAGA’s claims are objectively incorrect & they’ve been trained to scream they’re being attacked/censored when we correct them. Refusing to accept truth is the literal definition of delusion.
For the sake of argument, let’s say they did present their ideologies in good faith: How does that improve the content and context of their viewpoints?
They literally want to put people in camps, talk about shooting who they want when they want, praise violence, and systemically oppress minorities.
But they aren’t civil nor are they good faith. I haven’t seen one on or off social media and I’m surrounded by them. Their arguments have no basis in fact and that doesn’t matter to them. It is what it is.
I completely agree. I've learned a lot from those who I do not agree with. I've had many positions that I held strong opinions about, and then found out that I simply had not examined my own bias in those areas. Good good faith discussions and disagreements are healthy
MAGA don’t have “civil or good faith” opinions. They cannot be reasoned with, they sealion, deflect, lie, and gaslight. They have multiple spaces to do this, they don’t need to be here too.
Sure, but you know that's not what's happening. Weirdos are dropping in yelling CRY MOAR and spewing weirdness about trans people. They're getting blocked.
True, but too seriously act like any Trump supporter argues anything in good faith or civility is a complete and utter lie. We have nearly a decades worth of video evidence to that proves it. Some of which, Mark here is in.
You guys aren't civil. This isn't a simple disagreement. You're hypocrites.
My grandfather has civil and good faith opinions on the pollution of white bloodlines, the radiation from technology, and the healing power of crystals.
So you would agree that the MAGA perspective (which is a monolith by definition) is not welcome then? Because it is neither civil nor offered in good faith.
There are no good faith or civil discussions to be had between the far right and the rest of humanity.
I'm serious, what's a good faith or civil opinion that's held be the maga crowd that you think needs serious discussion or consideration by the rest of society?
That's what my neo-con friend said when he tried to play the devil's advocate defending the ethical BENEFITS of an ethnostate. Give fascists an inch and they'll take your mile.
Trumpers are not paying attention to material reality anymore and thus cannot have a civil conversation.
Seriously and that person is asking ppl how many maga ppl have we "actually" met. Well too many since they are everywhere I look. Childhood friends and all. Sigh.
When promoting and advocating for oppression, no opinion can be given that is "good faith" by that same measure oppression is, in itself, not civil. Now begone from my timeline, you closeted twink!
I was fooled by people who talked and said all the right things, the nice things, talked about being good and decent and then turned around and endorsed Trump... Like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Yep. Fundies (often synonymous with MAGA) love to smile and turn on the charm offensive. But if you're one of "those people," they'll stab you in the back while talking about how much they love you.
There is nothing civil about any of them. Convicted serial felons, rapists, thieves, liars; name a deadly sin and they're it. God will say to them, "Depart from me. I never knew you.".
Hard pass, thanks.
Go Canes! Unless they're playing the Pens.
And no, nobody needs to be civil or have good faith debates with racists, theocrats, TERFs, homophobes, transphobes, xenophobes, apartheidists, gro*pers, or bigots period
I can count on the fingers of one hand…no, on the pinky finger of one hand…the number of times a MAGA has offered an opinion civilly and in good faith.
You nailed it in your answer. Civil and good faith opinions…most are not looking for that. Most want to spew hate and creat chaos. It becomes so tiring to generate a conversation that is productive. IMO
at work i don’t have to “welcome” the “good faith” belief that some languages should be eradicated, why in my life should i have to welcome the idea that some people should be eradicated??
Can there really be even one good faith opinion coming out of maga? What is it? Let’s give Trump another chance, accept con BS lies, listen to cons say MTG is human and kind? That deportations are ok? What possible good faith can come from any MAGA? Just saying we’ve been there.
That's the issue, there is not a single good faith opinion that exists regarding Trump. The very fact their slogan is MAGA is racist/misogynistic. Or are you about to tell me there was a time earlier in this country's history that was better for women and minorities?
Built on the backs of slaves and the blood of indigenous peoples, this country has always been the same: a lie whitewashed with more blood and more lies.
It is not REMOTELY good faith to claim you want to protect girls and women while simultaneously voting for a rapist and self admitted serial sexual assailant who bragged about going into the miss teen USA dressing room
If someone uses civil language to express their good-faith opinion that the poor generally get what they deserve, or that white people are superior, then no, they should not always be welcome.
If they had civil and good faith opinions, people wouldn’t be shunning them en masse. But alas, they’re mostly raging assholes and the discourse here is definitely not missing them.
Depends on the opinion. "I think taxes should be lower" is an entirely different thing than "women shouldn't be allowed to vote or divorce me"
No matter how politely the latter is phrased, no matter how civil the presentation, that is w repugnant opinion and deserves neither civility nor respect.
They had 2 entire social media platforms that didn’t allow it based on algorithms, administrators blocking content and punishing contradicting opinions, double standards, etc. They can stay there until they have the courage and/or decency to let us use their platforms with the same freedoms they do
People who believe that the immigrants are eating the pets are neither willing to have civil discussions and most certainly do not do ANYTHING in good faith. Trump supporters have ZERO interest in having discussions.
Sorry, not all civil and good faith opinions should be welcome. Flat earthers are usually civil and truly believe what they say, it’s still BS and shouldn’t be entertained. Every argument or opinion is not valid and worthy of time
In my experience, there are two types of Trump supporters:
1. Those who are so embarrassed that they voted for him that they will never admit it and they just vote for him because they think he will add to their wealth or they are secretly racist or homophobic (or whatever)
Go find me a Trump supporter who is "civil," who argues in good faith, who diligently vets their sources, and who doesn't believe that certain classes of people are less valuable or important than their own demographic. I'll go, "Holy shit you found one!" and okay, they can stay.
Completely incapable. "Civility is an act of showing regard and respect for others including politeness, consideration, tact, good manners, graciousness, cordiality, affability, amiability, and courteousness. Ultimately, civility is treating others as we would like to be treated."
This is why they won. We're all "welcoming" They support a rapist and insurrectionist. Let them keep their "Glory" win to themselves. I'm not having it. Nope. Spent a DECADE being Civil. Right now, FUCK NO
I completely agree! I’m so angry at Dem’s. Biden for keeping Garland, Nancy Pelosi for saying he wasn’t worth the price of impeachment, they had nine years to stop this. Dems keep playing by rules that don’t exist. Now what?!?!
Kamala and Tim were taking the gloves off and came close. When people's lives worsen in the coming years, Dem candidates have to get down and dirty--except that they won't have to lie. Dumbshit voters will have to see that the truth has always been on our side.
Yes. Looking back, the Harris/Walz initial strategy of emphisizing "joy" was probably a mistake. Although it may not have made much of a difference if they used a different approach at the start, unfortunately.
This is the hardest thing to admit! That Trump supporters either knew the truth and simply chose to ignore it, didn’t know the truth or didn’t believe the truth!
Trump invented alternative facts and “fake news.” It’s truly a shame.
I’ve seen it happen in real time with my own family members. You can have all the evidence in the world, every explanation for every step of the way, sources cited— it doesn’t matter.
They reject all of it and just follow the white rabbit.
Yes. It's incredibly ironic that Trump whines about the MSM (which I admit is highly problematic, but for different reasons) being "fake news" while it's his puppeteers (yes, including Putin operatives) who generate all the disinformation (the real "fake news") on his behalf.
Yes, in a perfect world, but so far, any "conservative" voices I've seen on here have called me a "libtard," "Biden f*ggot," and "cuck," and have told me to go f**k myself.
I am, therefore, not convinced any conservative voices here are operating in good faith.
Pretty hypocritical of them to ask for civility and good faith arguments when they've spent the last 8 years harming us with their words, actions, and choices.
Especially since they consider denying human rights "civility" as long as it's dripping with an insincere respectful tone. I don't value polite, I value decency & they have none.
And this is a game to them to maintain power. "You have to endure my dehumanization of you because I'm doing it politely, otherwise you're the rude one." Fuck civility politics & these people playing them.
I've yet to meet a Maga person who deals in good faith and is civil, since the election they've gone full on obnoxious and many of them are threatening and propagating vile messages.
I love your response! Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
"the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry"
All of that is a waste of time when spies from Russia, China and Saudi Arabia have learned to hide behind fake profile pictures and "civility" to brainwash and indoctrinate people. Bluesky needs to screen out the massive wave of foreign spies coming from Elon Musk's Twitter which is 99.9% bots.
trump supporters don’t have those but conservatives do. they are entirely different groups. disagreeing about something like pizza toppings is one thing, when you’re knowingly vote for someone who will cause a lot of pain, it’s hard to just disagree with that, it shouldn’t be defended or supported
So... who did conservatives *overwhelmingly* vote for in the US?
Right. It was Trump.
But even if it wasn't Trump, Conservatives are the ones who created the environment for Trump to thrive in. The only reason why any conservative leaders dislike Trump is because they dislike him personally.
They don't disagree with Trump on policy, which is actually the majority of the reason why Trump and his supporters are garbage people. They disagree with Trump because he's a slimeball on a personal level, and because he's open about how much of a slimeball he is.
not all conservatives are trump supporters but all trump supporters are conservatives, i’m not demonizing all conservatives, some have stood against him so there’s still hope
I'll demonize them. Even without trump the ideology is about social and economic hierarchy where a few get way more rights and resources than everyone else below them.
And Trump is exactly where that ideology leads to, he's not a corruption or aberration of conservatism he's a fulfilment of it.
The ideology is about restoring social and economic inequality. The number of people that champion it without bad faith arguments or lies are very few because they know that it's not a good thing to admit to publicly in a democracy.
I can't think of any Federal Conservatives who actually stand up to Trump. Nikki Haley talked a bunch of talk, but she bent the knee just like everyone else.
Are there any significant Conservative leaders who don't fall into one of the two categories I discussed?
If they're refusing to support Trump, then they don't have any representation and aren't really worth talking about.
Even then, they probably fall into the second group: Conservative ideals make Trump possible, and most of the Conservatives who don't like him hate him because of his personality.
Define "conservative". Did they vote R because of money? That means they believe their 401k is worth more than human rights...which means they are terrible people.
So...NOT entirely different groups, in fact. Just some are closeted MAGA rather than out
.
They are neither civil nor in good faith. It’s a constant zombie hoard of
Nasty verbal assaults. Go to Twitter and get run over by them. It’s nothing but hit and runs.
We are tired of both sides have the truth. They lie. That's all they do whether they know it's a lie or not. And almost the entire public discourse is dominated by maga billionaires sites. Leave one for the truth please Mr. Billionaire.
Comments
And note the daily decrease in the percentage of the popular vote that DT actually got, btw. No massive mandate (unless it was for Ds seeing that they have work to do)
Both sides are not the same.
We don’t disagree on policy. Other people’s right to exist and be left alone in their life choices is not up for discussion.
My bodily autonomy is not the governments or your business.
Or the right to say what happens with my body?
Or the rights of that gay couple to get married?
What ever happened to live and let live, or mind your own business?
Rights aren’t pie, more for them doesn’t mean less for you.
And that’s creepy and unsettling af.
Besides, proper defiancy requires you to know exactly what you’re dealing with.
Many do no play well with others.
What I said is I am trying to argue with people who have no intention of budging.
Have you heard the old adage of talking til blue in the face?
I’m done. We tried.
We got played by a bunch of hateful willfully ignorant shit heels, and misogynist Tate loving, Rogan sycophant “bros”.
Enough already.
They continue to support him because he creates a safe and inclusive place for their collective ignorance, unfounded and misplaced grievances, and their manufactured hate.
😂😂😂
Followed!
Most Americans live on soundbites and podcasters. The days of real reporters have past into history
Even if that were true, you maybe wonder why?
At least for a little while.
Like an addict hitting rock bottom before the healing begins.
Every sincere, good faith Trump supporter I have ever met is working off a completely different view of reality.
They have lost the ability for rational thought. If they hadn’t… well, see above.
We don’t have to care why they’re in a cult to understand that they are.
Maybe the difference this time is that we’re not there to save them, and coddle them, and say, “there there, it’s okay.”
Put them in his path and let them face the consequences they have wrought.
He can never fail, only be failed
They'll never attribute these failures to trumpian policy, there will always be a scapegoat, brown people, trans people, gay people, etc.
They'll use that to push more & more punitive measures against those groups. We've seen it before, learn from it, please.
should I go on?
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category&ruling=false&speaker=donald-trump
How is my government killing kids?
It appears you are oversimplifying things.
The problem Skippy is from the get-go you knew this monster was a viper and you still voted for him. Do you not see the conundrum?
Online, I found most trump voters dreadfully embroiled in vile meanness.
It always starts out well enough, but as soon as they perceived loss they start with the childish personal insults.
I'm done with them.
What he’s saying is theoretical, it’s not based on reality, unfortunately.
They literally want to put people in camps, talk about shooting who they want when they want, praise violence, and systemically oppress minorities.
You simply can’t convince me these people need to share space with those they’re targeting. We need reprieve.
Did people just up and forget internet trolls existed?
You guys aren't civil. This isn't a simple disagreement. You're hypocrites.
I don't think he should be welcome here.
40 scholars can be proven wrong by 1 fact. 1 fool can't be proven wrong by 40 facts.
I'm serious, what's a good faith or civil opinion that's held be the maga crowd that you think needs serious discussion or consideration by the rest of society?
Trumpers are not paying attention to material reality anymore and thus cannot have a civil conversation.
And some opinions are not civil no matter how you put them
Disgusting swine.
Hard pass, thanks.
Go Canes! Unless they're playing the Pens.
But also, let me know when you find a Donald supporter on social media that comes in civilly and with good faith.
MAGA's not interested in that.
When people show you who they are believe them. We believe them.
Until then it's a near literal red flag that good faith is flatly not on offer.
I also understand voting for those policies and platforms is an endorsement of them.
It is not REMOTELY good faith to claim you want to protect girls and women while simultaneously voting for a rapist and self admitted serial sexual assailant who bragged about going into the miss teen USA dressing room
Is this really controversial?
Is
Not
Civil,
Nor
Is
It
Good
Faith.
Blocking them is such a loss for The Discourse.
No matter how politely the latter is phrased, no matter how civil the presentation, that is w repugnant opinion and deserves neither civility nor respect.
But there are followers who do want to discuss. Trump reached people by tailoring media to their fears. Talking is good in those cases.
1. Those who are so embarrassed that they voted for him that they will never admit it and they just vote for him because they think he will add to their wealth or they are secretly racist or homophobic (or whatever)
2. Cult members.
Good luck!
Trump invented alternative facts and “fake news.” It’s truly a shame.
They reject all of it and just follow the white rabbit.
Why do you think Trump is having to put up with Space Karen?
"I think men should control all women's bodies, even if it kills them" is not a difference of opinion.
"I think gun deaths are preferable to gun regulation" is not a difference of opinion.
I am, therefore, not convinced any conservative voices here are operating in good faith.
#Hindsight2020
These people act we’re having theoretical discussions with zero consequences.
It’s completely tone deaf!
There is zero possibility of civility when that’s how they view us.
They are not welcome. There is no such thing as a "good" trump supporter.
I'm done arguing with people who basically insist that "2+2=5"
"the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry"
Right. It was Trump.
But even if it wasn't Trump, Conservatives are the ones who created the environment for Trump to thrive in. The only reason why any conservative leaders dislike Trump is because they dislike him personally.
And Trump is exactly where that ideology leads to, he's not a corruption or aberration of conservatism he's a fulfilment of it.
I can't think of any Federal Conservatives who actually stand up to Trump. Nikki Haley talked a bunch of talk, but she bent the knee just like everyone else.
Are there any significant Conservative leaders who don't fall into one of the two categories I discussed?
Even then, they probably fall into the second group: Conservative ideals make Trump possible, and most of the Conservatives who don't like him hate him because of his personality.
So...NOT entirely different groups, in fact. Just some are closeted MAGA rather than out
.
Nasty verbal assaults. Go to Twitter and get run over by them. It’s nothing but hit and runs.