Why are progressives obsessed with “Free Bus Fare”? Who is patient zero for this idea? The bus isn’t expensive. It isn’t a significant portion of a family’s household income. This policy just imposes costs on already struggling transit agencies. Is there some book/article where this idea originates?
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We have free neighborhood shuttles every 15 minutes that move us around Tempe. We have a free street car that moves students and everybody along a four mile track. We also have light rail to get us to other nearby cities. The goal is no cars. It is starting to work.
a. In a lot of cities with centralised business areas and zone based fare structures, transport fares are a disproportionate expense for low income earners who need to travel the furthest, and pay the most...
I realise that doing this costs money, but recently my state government made fixed 50c fares permanent for about 4 million people (South East Queensland)
This is a conservative government...
From a planning perspective, cars are a huge waste of space and public given all the parking they require and maintenance of roads etc.
I don't think it's a simple as asking whether people....
https://translink.com.au/about-translink/reports-and-publications/performance
- The bus is actually that expensive for some people who have to use it as their only form of transportation.
- Socialists tend to believe that things should be free at the point of service for those using it to avoid the above
my main problem rn is there's no bus stops where I live! And I have to drive 25 minutes just to reach the first park and ride!
https://www.komanoff.net/cars_II/Eliminating_NYC_Bus_Fares.pdf
https://www.masstransitmag.com/technology/fare-collection/press-release/53096054/city-of-boston-boston-mayor-wu-extends-free-fares-on-three-bus-routes-for-two-additional-years
Free fares seem popular among donors and the base but not constituents.
And if the fares aren't enough to cover cost anyway, why bother with them?
(but)
West Virginia and New York City have very different infrastructure and needs in this department, for example.
And sure we can walk and chew gum but they aren't watching our jaws
It would be a significant little improvement in riders' lives if transit was free, but that is not a great reason to do it.
"A meme is an idea, behavior, or style that spreads by means of imitation from person to person within a culture and often carries symbolic meaning representing a particular phenomenon or theme."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
I think Internet and cell service should be a utility too, because they're also necessary to function in our society.
I for one am gonna side with Zohran and other NYC progressives in supporting congestion pricing to fund transit.
I know I sound Republican, but I rely on transit, and when it's a free for all, it is grim
Transit can't be transit *and* a shelter
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/states-road-funding-2019/
As a commuter who rides the bus, it’s hard to disagree.
The reason they only open the back door for someone getting off is that they’re trying to ensure that people don’t dodge the fare.
To be fair, if we captured land value better, the idea would make sense
Wait until you hear about every single public infrastructure and service.
One person on the bus means we spent a lot of money on that person. 50 people on that bus makes it very cost effective.
Keeping people off the bus is counterproductive.
You can feel like you're advocating for something important, AND you get a constant flow of people telling you it's a bad idea to feed that contrarianism
It's twitter addict catnip
unless of course, you're part of the class that gets the wall
We had fare-free buses during covid bc of Fed emergency funding, which ended
Gas should be $8/gal for everyone: based, genius material.
Doesn't really matter either way. There are zero agencies where riders would benefit more from making transit free instead of improving service.
Especially since taxes pay for like, 90% + of operating budgets for our transit agencies?
Like, if we want to increase service it will come from tax revenue not fares…
We should separately decide the best way to spend that money. Improving service (and a million other things) is much, much, much higher priority than making buses free.
It’s literally a tax the rich issue unless you want to tax the poor!
And yes, you've already made it clear twice that you would like to talk about taxing the rich. If you don't get the point I'm making we can just stop replying to each other.
They always have a reason and it’s always to OUR detriment. They’re going to do all that anyway and then blame us. Lol. The merry go round is fkn exhausting.
Pay your fair fkn share.
There are people who have no income at all, nor a house.
Why should we not just, y’know, fix the problem by fixing the problem?
In Westchester we sometimes have free buses during the summer. More people ride. The system doesn't collapse.
1. Boston already has a few free bus lines, this didnt come from nowhere
2. The data from free bus pilot program in NYC showed the biggest group of new riders had income under $28k
3. The program is paid for by raising taxes on the 1%
https://www.boston.gov/departments/transportation/free-route-23-28-and-29-bus-program
That's not cheap. It is a lot of money.
not sure why anyone thinks they should be run as a for profit company
Yet for some reason a lot of leftists with little understanding of public transit think it’s number one.
And that’s without increasing service, and without stepping up funding for our transit supervisors and police at all.
I made the mistake of thinking this was NYC specific, where congestion pricing (new in 2020) could have replaced fares threefold.
It’s still going to be like $47 million, a year, forever. We could improve the system so much with that money instead.
But they still use fare inspectors (according to Wikipedia) because they charge fares to non-residents. Residents can just show an ID card demonstrating city residency.
The State has committed to renewing the grant indefinitely btw.
Added benefits: reduction in unnecessary car trips, psychological difference between cheap and free is significant, encourages focus on service
Hence it's good to run on and good economics. As I said, free lunch.
Also a little bit: transit rider is self-selecting for people to whom the cost is evidently not a barrier. Run the same survey in Perth where the bus is free and suggest a fare.
Fare collection really doesn’t cost much.
OTP and speed are going to be more a factor of having all door boarding or removing enforcement that was done before. Both of those can be done without fare abolition
there. i fixed the issue
we spend almost 90 mil on racist cops
There is significant overhead when it comes to operating public transportation. And much of it is already funded through tax revenue and grants.
I'll pass.
Budgets are finite. You can't fund everything.
What would you deprioritize to invest in making transit free?
Also, are you aware of other transit-related issues outside of fares that need to be addressed, and their cost?
It costs uber money to police said fare gates, more than the fares that would have been collected.
This leads to an increase in police budgets, at a time when crime rates are declining.
Fares make up only a small portion of the budget.
• *are* significant expense for the most disadvantaged
• are inefficient - collection & enforcement cost time & money
• are irritating & humiliating
• create an opportunity to criminalize poverty
• get phased out where ridership is overwhelmingly rich people
https://bsky.app/profile/zohrankmamdani.bsky.social/post/3lr56n3dotc2d
If I bought single tix, and only used them to commute, it would be $1,479. But what about grocery shopping?
Actually it’s a moral triumph because it is free!
And transit could be the same!
I support free transit for children and redistributed wealth for everyone else.
One could oppose this but ought to recognize user fees have a regressive incidence usually.
The remainder generally comes from some sort of tax.
or someone who knows that encouraging public transport use right now is crucial to fighting climate change?
Charging people to make the economy work induces unnecessary friction.
It's not like an idea to be rejected outright but it comes with very severe tradeoffs I'm not convinced are worth it.
And it's always buses because trains are for rich people and buses are for poor people. It's all very classist too.
(I also remember paying $20 to the kid who stole them from his private school).
Only line that has decent service is Tempo. It is effectively fare free and so has the most ridership, which prevents AC Transit from cutting its service
I recorded the current and proposed frequencies for Realign and most of the lines keep their frequencies
I am mainly just bitter about the 72R dropping from 12min -> 30min frequencies
[As a Bostonian, where there are no rapid or SBS buses, I’m not a fan of rapid (or express) buses. If there’s that much demand, build grade separated rail, and have people take local buses. KISS.]
Nothing to see, let’s all move on
lol you dumbass
The bus is pretty expensive if you have to ride it everywhere and you’re trying to support a family on $10/hr, but go off on how a lease on a 2026 Mercedes is super affordable, I guess.
80-100$ for a month is pretty common for the larger systems in California and low income discounts can cut that in half.
you're talking a substantial portion of rent for a family if children didn't ride free
I don't care what government I'm under in whatever country but first, transport should be public and free, funded by taxes.
Have you ever had to worry about bus prices?
Helping people get to work is absolutely a legit use of public funds.
I think many people here are instead undervaluing lower income people's time. Having an extra 20 minutes in your day can mean more than a free fare
https://www.vice.com/en/article/meet-the-spreadsheet-that-can-solve-nyc-transit-and-the-man-who-made-it/
https://accting.eu/free-public-transport-for-residents-of-tallinn-estonia/
https://www.cvilletomorrow.org/cat-farebox-demonstration/
i can't blame them. there's nothing special about fare revenue. there's other ways to skin that cat.
2. There actually are quite a few places in the US that have abolished fares in public transit, and all of those systems suck and few people ride them. Places in the world famous for transit, where everyone rides it, still charge fares.
Most roads are free, why not buses too.
🤔🙄
Also, congrats on you for being financially stable enough that the bus isn't expensive but it sure as hell is for plenty of people.
1. Installation, maintenance, and upgrading of fare systems - cost eliminated
2. Fare enforcement - cost eliminated
2.a. Transit police can spend more resources on transit crime, like thefts and assaults
2.b. Reduced disputes with drivers, conductors, etc.
3. Time savings -- no waiting for fare gates, waiting in line to pay fare, waiting for people to top up their cards or pay in cash, or fare disputes, plus
4. More reliable, easier to access system means that even people for whom the fare is nominal are more likely to use public transit instead of separate cars
5. People taking public transit instead of separate vehicles = lower cost of road maintenance, less traffic =
6. Buses, subways, and trains can be electrified externally by rails or overhead wires, while electric cars need individual batteries, which are extremely problematic
Literally nothing but wins here.
Eliminating fare enforcement, for example, is a lot less pressing when the cops don't carry guns.
Because everyone I've seen argues otherwise
I didn't ask for a restatement, I asked for a justification. For supporting reason(s).and evidence.
OP talks about both "free bus fare" AND "free transit"
Why free subway no mixing.
We already have ½ of fares for seniors and low income households which helps but that's means tested and a hassle. Free transit is good
That's not cheap for 3-4 family members.
Do you realize that a FULLTIME min wage job earns only $1200/mo?
People in K-12 school pay at most $10 / month, and as little as $0 / month for an SRT pass.
A little consistency, please.
Public transport, what if it was treated like roads; not for profit and everyone chips in and has access is the idea I think.
It's one of those 'seems good, but probably doesn't matter' kinda things.
“It helps some people somewhat” should not be the bar for policy, has to be better than alternatives
Their public transit system also isn’t that good compared to many of their neighbours in the EU.
Just because it worked there means nothing for how it would or wouldn't) work here.
It’s a question of economics, not the logistics of maintaining a transit system
This strikes me as a statement born of comfort or unfamiliarity. Transit is, in fact, a significant cost for many working class people. The bus can be a) the only way for a person to get to/from work, and b) expensive and slow.
Taxes also compete with other priorities like fire, sewer, water, police, parks, library, etc, which you can also provide more of with $
A: it’s not an insignificant expense for many travelers or would-be travelers ($50-75/mo)
B: removing collection greatly speeds up boarding and increases capacity
C: removing collection sometimes *saves* money for systems vs. collected fares
(But didn't find this post until after I'd done so.)
* fares fund better service / fares more than pay for themselves
* fares are affordable for most
* low income programs address others
* fares make sure that only people with a destination are using the bus.
You know what really helps at-need people get to work, social supports, and necessary resources? Frequent, reliable buses. You know what doesn't? Making a late, unreliable bus that doesn't keep to its schedule cost $0 instead of $1.25.
At any level of service you could provide with free fares you could make riders better off by charging a fare and running more buses.
It found a 30% *increase in boardings* not an increase in riders. This is an argument for a cheaper monthly pass.
But not frequent enough? Faster buses means more service. Higher loads means more service.
Like is fare evasion really a drag on progressive politics in NYC?
https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-public-transit-be-free-update/
New York MTA 24%
Chicago CTA 16%
Chicago Metra 14%
Atlanta 20%
Baltimore 13%
Miami 9%
Denver 12%
Dallas 8%
Minn/St. Paul 10%
LA Metro 11%
Orange Cty CTA 16%
DC MTA 24%
Seattle 16%
Cleveland RTA 10%
Pittsburgh 18%
Source (North America table):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio
Like they clearly don’t care about transit operations beyond the fact they want fares to be free
I think transit has an “equity” angle (read: they think it’s for poor people) that attracts them too
Says someone who apparently hasn't:
A) Taken the bus for a while
B) Hasn't relied on bus-only transportation TO AND FROM WORK EVERY DAY
C) Hasn't multiplied fare x 10 (trips in a 5-day work week) x 4 (weeks per month), and then...
Maybe you have the sort of job that pays better than those jobs of many other people on that bus. When I was bus-only, bus fare ate roughly an hour of my takehome pay per day.
Bus fares with two hours worth of transfers (not counting reduced fare passes) was $2.75 in LA. So roughly $5.50 a day to get to and from work or ~$140 a month.
Also, the minimum wage these days, 32 years after my own experience, is only $7.25/hour. I assure you, many people in this country make that wage. Many of 'em depend on the bus.
I'm curious how this stacks up against other cities fare monthly/low income fare systems.
E) ...compared the result to the household's income minus rent, food, bills, etc.
Bus fare adds up fast.
Even with bus passes, it can indeed be a VERY significant portion of a family's income.
B. I wish I could to my current office, but I did it prior for many years
C. Do you live in a place with no monthly fare?
D. If multiple people take transit for work, don't you have multiple incomes?
E. How much is rent and food compared to transit?
B. Good.
C. Not now, but I did before I moved here.
D. See "compared the result to the household's income."
E. Far more, especially these days. It all adds up, and I already addressed that in my comments above.
I live in the one where employers in my previous home (Asheville, NC) had fixed wages at slightly more than federal minimum, and threatened to collectively close their outlets and fire everyone if the city council made them raise those wages.
Bus fares are part of the "poverty tax." As anyone who's been poor knows, the less you make, the more everything costs and the further each dollar needs to stretch.