Kenyan here. For every deal we have with China it ends up being a fair transaction compared to what we get from the West.
Kenya literally had hundreds of thousands of youth protesting IMF, World Bank and US financial institutions exploiting the country through puppet politicians
Capitalism has rotted your mind. I've been an aid worker in Africa, everything USAID did had strings attached - meanwhile every doctor I met was Cuban and teaching at the local medical schools, and the infrastructure was built by the Chinese or Indians as actual foreign aid.
What you call actual foreign aid from Chinese are to be paid back - and was built with Chinese materials and even Chinese workers. And if you saw Cuban Doctors it is because they are cheapest - and btw they miss them in Cuba. Please don't be so naive.
At least there will be a hospital once the Chinese leave. Western countries just pay their expatriates hardship fees, they live in the most expensive places, drive gas guzzlers, 70% of the project money goes to facilitation fees. They leave no hospitals.
If the need is great, people won’t care about where the aid comes from. The fact that so many are peppering this thread with high-minded "But what about the economic ramifications?!" seem to be completely missing the point that people around the world are dying.
But the people on the ground don’t care about any of that. That’s the point of the original post: Aid vs. a lecture. Which one means more to the average person in need?
Cuba sends medical staff where it is needed world wide. Cheapest, maybe, but also among the best in the world. The condescension cannot obscure China's superiority in providing infrastructure and Cuba's quality of healthcare worker training. The US does not compare.
Cuban doctors volunteer, you dumbass. Because they actually care about doing good instead of just raping colonized people, which is all the West gives a shit about.
"it's fine when the IMF fucks poor countries to death but when cuba does anything it's the devil and when china does so for soft power instead of direct terms it's twice as bad as that" you are stupid. you are fucking stupid. get a real hobby.
The IMF has been intricately involved in Argentina, leveraging their investments there into Argentina's spiraling debt and the devaluation of the peso over the last 30 years. In Greece, an "advanced economy" it was instead Goldman Sachs who caused their financial crisis.
I didn't mean to suggest purely altruistic, that's me being glib. But they don't demand quid pro quo in re: resources. I would say that them hoping to be seen favorably in such endeavors b/c of their work is....well, just basic international relations. And it's worked!
Have you worked in international aid or international law? Or are you just stereotypically assigning Western assumption of nefarious purpose to Chinese actions because "China BAD!"
Well, they are aiming to buy up resource rights, but China has figured out "Hey, if people like us, they are willing to work with us without needing gunboat diplomacy"
Also Kenyan, there were massive protests over IMF and World Bank loans being given to corrupt politicians to bank roll the sale of Kenya's resources to westerners.
I don't know who this clown is but you're not Kenyan.
its kenyans who steal from kenyans...izo pesa za IMF zinakuliwa na our politicians apa who we keep on electing. whether loans ni za china, world bank, IMF it will still get stolen.
Shocker, it's Kenyans who sell out other Kenyans. Even during colonisation there were always collaborators.
Hizo pesa za IMF were funnelled into companies owned by the panel of IMF members that approved it. This was done by giving our corrupt politicians a piece of the pie...
bro before yoyu blame the IMF we must have a honest look of the role we play in our own suffering. how can a public official pocket the money ment for an entire hospital? how? supply fake fertilizers and pocket the money? how man how?
so saying loans are being looted in kenya am a sellout😂 its you who is a sellout. Kenyans who show the world everything is okay while its not. i dont blame the IMF and others for providing loans every country does that, the looting of public funds in kenya is close to none.
... when the IMF pushes for less restrictions for foreign companies to sell products in Kenya its funny how the foreign companies that immediately break into the Kenyan market have affiliations to those that approved the loans.
Thats what happened with Euro bond and suddenly German goods appeared.
bro kenya kwa street huwezi trust mtu,ata ww unajua scammers kenya wako everywhere, politicians wote ni wezi, services za gava zinafanya ngumu ndio ulipe,ii ndio culture tukonayo. unaingia kwa elective seats ndio uibe. before you talk all that ebu tafakari hayo.
That's the reason most African governments that don't do this are either overthrown, have their leaders killed or have an opposition party that suddenly gets funding.
Ask yourself where all those American armored vehicles and guns came from when people protested Ruto's elections
If Britain built a thousand hospitals in Kenya with no charge, they still wouldn't be free and Britain would need to build a thousand more to pay for the decades of colonization and exploitation.
the quality of projects and when/why they do generate enough $ to repay debt and when they don't, is imo on of question mainstream dev econ doesn't have much to say about. I wrote this about a paper that remind us public investment booms can end badly: https://www.bii.co.uk/en/news-insight/research/financing-gap-what-financing-gap/
Child, these things come with austerity policies attached to them and less protection for Kenyan goods in the market.
There's a reason hundreds of thousands of Kenyans protestested world Bank and IMF policies
If you would like to educate me about the policies Kenya was asked to enact to receive WB healthcare funding, I would be interested to learn, because I thought it was the IMF, not the WB, asking for fiscal tightening. But less of the "child", please.
"No such thing as a fee hospital"
They really think Kenyans, Africans and none whites are stupid.
"How will they pay it back?"
Idk. Let's look at the deal and negotiations. It probably stated there
That’s really not even slightly unique to China (assuming you’re not just talking out your ass and that’s why you don’t have anything to back up your claim)
I don't teach the economics part of this, but do teach "Approaches to Development," and will considering using (with attribution), as a conversation starter.
I fear teachers cannot be taught. we have to instead get open enough to learn from the black africans to live like them in harmony with nature. our long path through evolution instilled near infinite information and wisdom in being one with the dirt and the bugs. love
By “lecture” they mean the western countries telling them to stop killing and jailing LGBT people. Apparently we should all just look the other way like China done.
see how it's already generating a bunch of fireworks in the replies? instructors, make this a discussion tutorial item, THIS LIVELY DEBATE COULD BE YOURS
so far most of our substantive replies to the post would be getting Bs and Cs. 2 of you would have earned As. so we're on curve and the admin will be happy.
Whenever this comes up I feel compelled to highlight that although he's a transphobe and fan of the police Seddon is pretty left wing by British standards.
This isn't some random Tory but a guy who vehemently opposed invading Iraq and he still behaves this way.
Even an out-and-out imperialist hawk could see that invading without massive international support w/ a clear reconstruction plan was just.. not a good idea, no matter the supposed justification.
Supporters mostly bet they could profit before it crumbled.
Is this how a country becomes so deep in debt to another country that they become the equivalent of a ‘slave’ or ‘ indentured’ for decades… till long after the hospital crumbles? A variation on credit card debt. Not sure I understand how this money stuff works…
imposing help (including lectures) in the hope of loyalty is a thankless task. especially when the enemy (in our time this is more than obvious) disguises economic expansion as a humanitarian mission
And then they complain that the IMF won't lend them money if they don't reduce spending. Anyway technically countries have no obligations to pay back their debts but everyone else has no obligations to lend you.
See it’s bad because Kenya didn’t get a School of the Americas out of it to make sure the CIA could instigate a right-wing junta in response to anything vaguely populist.
No one said it was, but can you not see how repaying someone eventually for a favor done for you probably seems more desirable than being told to pull yourselves up by your bootstraps (especially by the people largely responsible for you not even having boots)?
Western/US development has never been free, we have always had specific ulterior motives and foreign policy demands or goals, and I'm pretty sure we also demand compensation, broadly.
Are the Chinese loan terms not explicit? If they're not explicit, why are people talking about the ability to repay? Why is the ability to repay a western loan not a concern?
"Always had ulterior motives" is just knee-jerk contrarianism. No, the West didn't *always* act out of kindness of the heart. But it has acted that way often, and many countries benefited from it immensely. South Korea and later Eastern Europe are just some examples.
Lmao yes if course their geographical proximity to our Designated Geopolitical Foes is simply a coincidence. The U.S. is just a smol bean that likes to help
Least you didn't try to argue that the middle east has benefited from our beneficence
damn that's wild, hey who's the one helping them get a hospital and who's the one calling them dumb savages too backwards to understand they're being scammed
Who was even saying the question is not valid? For better and worse, decision-making calculi aren’t always based on the veracity or rationality of input data (as we’ve been reminded quite starkly this month in the United States). Being perceived as a scold often hurts, even when message is “right.”
What if there *was* a free hospital, like what if one of us very wealthy countries just built the hospital and didn't seek some kind of payment or compensation? Is that like traveling faster than the speed of light or no?
Western countries are very wealthy, and the US in particular maintains a network of incredibly expensive military bases that stretches across the globe, so if we truly wanted to help people by *building, staffing, and running* a hospital or hospitals, it would not be a *challenge*. Jesus Christ.
China's debt comes with fewer strings is the main thing, because the cycle of getting IMF loans and then being forced to fire-sell national assets to pay them back in restructuring has helped lock these countries in poverty.
Now the thing that lefties like me are loath to admit is that basic economic liberalization *is* the most sturdy path out of extreme poverty. There's a reason people flee subsistence farming for sweatshops. But too much of western-imposed liberalism is just about cheap resources.
Why are material conditions so anathema to these people? If I need a hospital now, the person building the hospital is preferable. Even if they're doing it for shitty reasons and it hurts long term, I need the hospital now and they're providing it.
China, known to help Africa for the goodness in their hearts with no ulterior motives or strings attached at all. Oh, I'm sorry, didn't mean to lecture.
Nothing is for free. We know that. However, regardless of how ignorant this sounds, we would rather have to pay back what the Chinese give... Actual tangibles, than what the West 'gives, which in most cases is... Wait for it... Nothing
For real… no such thing as a free hospital? But there is such thing as free slaves and gold for the British, hmm? Those things were never “paid back,” Britain. Hospital’s the least you could do, really.
Read the article (I ask too much of random internet people). Chinese state companies refurbished it before this happened, part of belt and road extending to eastern Europe. If you're going to argue, at least be informed.
Comments
You're assuming there's no possible alternative to that.
Kenya literally had hundreds of thousands of youth protesting IMF, World Bank and US financial institutions exploiting the country through puppet politicians
If the need is great, people won’t care about where the aid comes from. The fact that so many are peppering this thread with high-minded "But what about the economic ramifications?!" seem to be completely missing the point that people around the world are dying.
And unlike U.S.-led institutions like the World Bank or IMF, the Chinese do foreign aid simply for international good will, not to own the 3rd world.
and not, like, "hey maybe Britain should ALSO build some hospitals for recompense later"
Unakuja hapa kutuaibisha.
Enda kwa wazungu kama unataka kuwalamba
I don't know who this clown is but you're not Kenyan.
Hizo pesa za IMF were funnelled into companies owned by the panel of IMF members that approved it. This was done by giving our corrupt politicians a piece of the pie...
Thats what happened with Euro bond and suddenly German goods appeared.
Ask yourself where all those American armored vehicles and guns came from when people protested Ruto's elections
It’s just as likely (if not more so)
"Maybe, but how will you be obliged to pay it back?"
1. China provides some grant funding for hospitals that does not need to be repaid
https://china.aiddata.org/projects/1267/#:~:text=Chinese%20Government%20provides%20RMB%2046.5,Project%20(linked%20to%20%2360169)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-kenya-development-partnership-summary/
https://www.bii.co.uk/en/news-insight/research/financing-gap-what-financing-gap/
There's a reason hundreds of thousands of Kenyans protestested world Bank and IMF policies
They really think Kenyans, Africans and none whites are stupid.
"How will they pay it back?"
Idk. Let's look at the deal and negotiations. It probably stated there
China expects to get something from all that soft diplomacy. Obviously the next questions are what does China expect to get and when?
Novelty!
UK own goal. Bring back that 0.7% baybeeee
https://bsky.app/profile/am-kelvin-bush.bsky.social/post/3lbf7shl2qk2o
This isn't some random Tory but a guy who vehemently opposed invading Iraq and he still behaves this way.
Even an out-and-out imperialist hawk could see that invading without massive international support w/ a clear reconstruction plan was just.. not a good idea, no matter the supposed justification.
Supporters mostly bet they could profit before it crumbled.
And sadly plenty of liberals to this day think invading Iraq was a good thing so Seddon's stance places him to the left of them.
It objectively did not serve US or UK (the nations) imperialist interests—it exclusively served the interests of profiteers.
I agree it’s sad how many still support it
I can see how that beats the lecture
https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/sri-lanka-formally-hands-over-hambantota-port-to-chinese-firms-on-99-year-lease/
My own argument would be that investing in developing nations has implicit rewards, so we should do it for free or at a steep discount.
Least you didn't try to argue that the middle east has benefited from our beneficence
https://www.ft.com/content/2c1af8a8-387b-448b-888b-e1ec438700f6
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/10/kenya-finance-bill-protests
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-67168228