A German experiment has found that people are likely to continue working full-time even if they receive no-strings-attached universal basic income payments.
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Long term unemployment and disability due to chronic illness IS BORING AF. It really will drive you mad if you spend 24 hours playing video games on your coach.
The VAST majority of folks would still work, and still produce for their culture and societies.
The social safety nets in Canada are *the only* reason I have a good full time job now. And even when I was living off those nets, I was still volunteering and giving back to my community while trying to get healthy enough to work.
Having the space to take care of myself is how I'm better now.
I was the opposite. I was on a social net when I found a job that I figured out my first week was TOXIC. I wanted to quit, but gov’t said they’d sue me for fraud because clearly I didn’t want to work.
Toxic job led to my breakdown. Was that better than just letting me try again? Welfare cheaper…
I would gladly go mad playing video games on my couch instead of work for a living, but if I have the option to both not work and do other things with my life I will do that.
You wouldn't work "a job" that you hated. As you say, you would still work.
And that, as far as capital is concerned, is exactly the problem. You would no longer be a desperate, whipped dog working under the threat of starvation. Your work would be something they'd need to bargain to gain.
As a disabled person who if I tried to have a job it would completely destroy my health: yeah. I'd give anything to actually use my degree and work on an indie project or go back into academia, it's soul crushing never being able to do anything! But if I tried it wouldn't end well
I still haven't heard a good argument UBI payments will not drive up the cost of rent. If landlords know that everyone gets 1500 a month, what's to stop them from raising your rent 1500 a month. I am open to the argument of UBI, I don't see how it's done without another giant wealth transfer up
Without some sort of regulation to prevent scummy landlords from doing it, I just don't see how this wouldn't be another gift to the owner class. (see Blackrock)
But we still can be. It will be an uphill climb and take time, but it is possible. Especially if things continue politically, we're on track for a progressive Dem takeover of the Federal government in 2028-2032. Also younger conservatives are more in favor of an economy that works for workers.
This is kind of my point. We cannot convince our leaders to regulate business for Maternity leave, or prosecute people for market manipulation. I don't see how this works with the country we have at the moment.
There lots of variables in the rent go up equation. It's also important to realize that if the UBI was $1500/mo that doesn't mean everyone's disposable income after taxes goes up that much. Some would pay $1500 for $1500. Their boost would be zero.
Thanks for the article. I read it once in a restaurant. I will give it another when I can concentrate on what the author is saying. (not for nuthin, this place is leaps and bounds better than the other one.)
To be clear, I don't believe things have to be the way they are. I am just saying I haven't heard this addressed outside of small experiments with the current paradigm operating alongside. When it is rolled widely there would have to be some controls right?
They're an option, but not ideal. They're good for the renter and not good for those looking for affordable housing. Better to do stuff like YIMBY reforms and land value taxes.
Rent control. That or council housing, or an enormous tax on rental income, which you then use to build council housing. You must not have asked many people I guess 🤷🏻♂️
What's the over/under on Blackrock lobbying against that? There is a bi partisan bill to make a moratorium on corporate ownership of residential property, but we see how far that has gotten.
Hedgies are inherently opposed to anything that stops them making vast amounts of money, that's why the US will never have UBI because it's a country run to make rich people rich. UBI will almost certainly start in Scandinavia then spread round Europe though
There have actually been even American experiments that have shown the same.
Why haven’t you heard of them? American and some Canadian studies that show this could not be published in peer-reviewed journals because technically the studies weren’t finished. Gov’ts end them w/ great preliminaries…
YEAH, NO SHIT...BUT THE OLIGARCHS WHO OWN AND CONTROL CNN WOULD MUCH RATHER FELLOW OLIGARCHS RUN THE COUNTRY SO DELIBERATE IMPOVERISHMENT WIL DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS AND RENDER EVERYONE SERFS FORCED INTO SUBSERVIENCE FOR SUBSISTENCE
It’s only surprising to dipshits like all of you in the media class. This shit is consistently proven every time it is tried. When people aren’t afraid that they can’t pay their bills, they actually have the willpower and time to put themselves into doing something productive that they love. 🤷🏼♀️
Because it’s more about security and latitude to make decisions about life. UBI isn’t about complacent behavior, which is what top grifters portray it as being.
You’re not getting an *extra* $10k - corporations will use this as leverage to pay you $10k *less*.
UBI will come to America when it can be used to subsidize these re-shored “phone factory” jobs, which require paying a sub-minimum wage to keep prices down. w/o regs it’s just corporate welfare.
The minimum wage. I’m implying that in order for domestic industrial production to be re-shored while keeping prices competitive, owners may pursue waivers to minimum wage, which would be made palatable by instituting UBI to offset the loss in wages.
So then support UBI and oppose lowering the minimum wage. The issue would be lowering the minimum wage not providing for basic needs. This is like the fear that the rich will only find some way to pass along tax increases to the poor so we shouldn't try to tax the rich.
Oh yeah 100%. I just do not trust the part where congress protects the minimum wage - GOP is dismantling everything. Min wage is always in their sights, and could be framed as a socialist menace that’s kept factory jobs from coming back. UBI can be good or bad, depending on context. Tax the rich!
Just to be clear it’s not that I oppose UBI necessarily, I just believe it to be a cherry on top of a healthy, equitable economic system - something we clearly do not have atm. Nordic / euro economies are in much better standing to feel full benefit of a UBI.
This has been the result in literally every study that has been done on this around the world. When are politicians going to stop giving free handouts to the rich and start giving them to people who actually need it or could use it?
To be clear: cutting essential social services like Medicare or unemployment benefits and then taking that money to give as to billionaires as 'tax breaks' is a handout... subsidies for big corporations are handouts, bailing out failed banks and Wall st traders with taxpayer money is a handout.
UBI *is* the safety net, that's the point of the experiment! People are given enough money to cover all of their basic needs, the people who were able to work full time (as in they are not disabled, just had a baby, studying etc) at the beginning still continued to work depsite not even needing to!
This is really important to prove because it's completely shuts down the cruel and incorrect argument that conservatives and neoliberals constantly parrot about humans being inherently lazy and if ubi was a thing everyone would just quit their jobs, when that clearly is not true and never has been!
"People that like money will keep trying to get more" This should not be shocking. It's amazing how many rich people that could have stopped working themselves are like "give them barely enough to live and they won't bother working."
Work is so much more than money, BEFORE capitalism, every member of the tribe was taken care of and provided for, all had work, responsibilities, duty, respect. Capitalism created an investor class that ruined, the social order by imposing the "Mantra of capitalism", MORE, MORE, MORE.
Rutger Bregman writes a lot about these types of UBI experiments. They have been attempted many times in many places and are always a success. They are eventually scrapped due to some populist asshat politician's rhetoric about poor people being lazy and buying drugs.
Part of it is social. We are a social species, probably why social media is so popular. Me, I can take it or leave it, though failing as I am on this app🙄
There's a reason that the most functional social democracies are Calvinist countries, if work ethic is part of culture, a strong safety net won't reduce labor supply.
It is "free riders" who erode social support for safety net expenditures, a warning to Progressives.
See the full story in “The Impact”—a documentary exposing Alexander Dworkin’s worldwide anti-cult operation. Their campaign of repression is real, and our freedoms depend on resisting it now
If people could do literally ANYTHING they wanted to, they would not just sit and watch TV all the time, they would get bored and look to do something useful or engaging or fun or helpful to others.
People like to do things. Universal Income will let them do things more useful.
Surprising? Really? It’s intrinsic motivation and most ppl have it when they are free to choose what they do and when there’s no boot on the neck. It’s really not that hard. Spelled R E S P E C T.
and it is always framed with a weird second-hand bullshit anecdote like “a buddy of mine heard of a guy in Norway that didn’t have a job and bought a house with UBI money” and even if 100% true, who gives a shit?
it’s a circular rationale, it can be used forever to not change the system that has measurable negative outcomes. I’ve seen this rhetoric as well, it is not a fringe mentality. It is concerning that our society produces such common pettyness.
Amen! Wish there was a good fix.
(Fixing the school system, despite it being directly under attack. This will become a conversation about the school system if you don’t ignore the parentheses)
PS: I mean “our society” generally speaking, I am not american and this specific issue is very american, but I see similar displays of social pettyness as well
It’s like, “Wow, UBI works!” is a surprise after every single one of this experiments. They’ve proven this over and over again. No surprise. UBI doesn’t make people lazy. It makes them healthier and happier.
This experiment has been done, repeated, since the 1970s. Canada, England, Finland, the US (several places) Germany... I don't know how many other places.
No wonder more than 2M applied to be in the study. Free money for doing a survey every 6 months. People just like more money whether they are rich or poor. How about offering $3,000 per month UBI but if you work it gets taken off your salary? Many will take it and watch sports, go bird-watching etc.
Because money, as is, is a substitute for hard work, skill, dedication, and even morals. It's the ultimate cheat code; if you have enough, you can do anything.
With ubi, the rich lose the power to ruin your life at will. They suddenly can't force you to work for them or starve.
Women who have stable income leave their deadbeat, cruel husbands and “break up families.” If these men cannot keep a woman in marriage with financial coercion, they can’t keep a wife.
Good forbid we raise the standards for marriage, and reward the good men…
because at least in the US one of its two political parties and at least a third of the other one are dedicated to either not using the government for societal welfare programs at all or giving the welfare to the rich because they pinky swear to trickle it downward which of course they never do.
almost like people arent ‘lazy’ and want to use talents productively. rather than be pressed by scarcity into meaningless subsistence work, only to have their labor stolen by corporate welfare queens anyway
Gotta wonder how many people have talents that are social net benefits, but aren't so directly profitable. We could be one bill away from a second renaissance, held back only by the short sighted whims of people who have never meaningfully made anyone happy.
The piece about fincial security rings true to me. I noticed when I left a std PAYE job to be self employed (made redundant) I felt insecurity that means now I worry about taking holidays. A basic income would remove that, and even if I didn't get it if earning above a limit, I'd feel less stressed
totally agree. there’s also a difference between getting a one-time payout (think Covid stimulus checks or a lottery win) vs knowing that you can rely on a set amount every month. it allows people to plan, save, dream, create, thrive.
I won't work one hundred percent with UBI. I will just continue making games. Maybe won't target making something commercial and will release them for free.
“This just in: human beings actually like to find a use in society that gives them people, purpose, and personal fulfillment instead of sitting around dwelling on the inevitable encroachment of death.”
“Even when we provide a necessary economic service that prevents them from dying and has been proven time and time again to support national economies. Coming up next: Shocking results in a study that asks ‘why do humans object to Soylent green?’”
I'm sure part of that number is because they are proud of their country and their heritage ( despite a few bad decades) and they like their government now. Doubt many people in this country could go that route.
Cost of living being what it is, this just means people are chronically underpaid and still need the extra money, rather than 'they keep working even when they don't have to'.
So I'd be interested in:
- Demographics.
- What type of jobs these people work.
- The sum is likely not massive, about the equivalent of $1500. a month. What would happen if you gave people $3000, $5000? (Giving $1500 a month would not even come close to ALLOWING many people to quit their job.)
It's the difference between homelessness and having somewhere to live, eating and starvation, whether children have a Christmas present under the tree or not, and preventing desperate people turning to sex-work, drugs or shoplifting if their circumstances change suddenly.
Whereas if you're paid well in a job you enjoy, it just means you can afford a nicer car, or have a better holiday. Or rent a nicer apartment. Or buy a bigger house.
The only losers are the crappy employers offering even crappier jobs, and those preying on the vulnerable (drug runners etc).
I'm not wholly against the idea of UBI but I do think there are a lot of details and nuances that need to be discussed with these studies that normal news articles don't cover well.
I’ve said this for 20 years that people with disabilities should get basic income rather than SSDI which limits them and keep them impoverished. #disability
So surprising that the results of this experiment were exactly the same as every one of the dozens of other experiments of the same kind that have been repeated over and over again for decades.
It's never been about what's accurate or right or what makes the most people happy or what's best for everyone. the reason things are so bad is because rich people with a chip on their shoulder want poor people to constantly struggle.
Surprising to whom, CNN? Nobody who actually knows anything about UBI is surprised. Are you surprised? Why are you surprised? What was your understanding and where did it come from?
Every time this has been tried this has been the result. Of course people keep working because they want to live better and have a chance save money and to feel useful. This isn't a mystery. The fact that the US finds this surprising is because we hate poor people.
"People who already earned between 1,100 euros (around $1,250) and 2,600 euros ($2,950) a month."
Oh, surprise, people who can hold a job, held jobs. Try lazy bums next time, or a mixture of bums and workers. See how bums showered with money would affect work ethics of the workers
The same pattern holds true across the board. People who aren't constantly stressed about basic survival perform better.
Also, for the record, the only "Lazy bums" are billionaires who have literally done zero work in their lives, and landlords, who profit off of fucking over others.
It might be fucked up to say, but I think the most level headed and motivated I have ever felt was when I was isolated and receiving money during covid. Not panicking about how I was going to pay my bills gave me SO much more energy. Sometimes, sad as it makes me to say, I kinda miss those days
So what’s your point. That we should work until we die?? Of course CNN promoted this. The oligarch who owns them thinks working until you die is a fine idea! Maybe this post should get taken down??!!
I got that.My concern is publishing a report such as this only incentivizes these greedy oligarchs to normalize low pay and long working life.I’m retired, so I realize continuing to be productive is essential after retirement. However, it should be an endeavor one chooses to engage in, nothing more.
Wow, same outcome as the last hundred times this has been tested, almost as if our policies of mandated poverty are driven by ideology and not evidence
More than boredom, working provides a sense of personal efficacy that is hard to replicate in purely recreational outlets. Volunteering, working, activism, are some of the few outlets that will fill that need.
Isn't this the 10,000th study or so that shows this?
Better make it illegal. It's bad when people get help and improve the economy because it imperceptibly shrinks the wealth gap between people and billionaires, which is worse than the Holocaust.
Being able to live without constantly worrying how you will feed and shelter yourself doesn't make you lazy and indolent, it unlocks human potential. Get that through your thick heads fake rugged individualists.
We would actually all become richer by ensuring that everybody has a place to live and the resources necessary to eat and work? We should do that here, then!
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Meanwhile, the U.S. is the only country where ‘non-toxic’ on a crayon is considered a dare.
Long term unemployment and disability due to chronic illness IS BORING AF. It really will drive you mad if you spend 24 hours playing video games on your coach.
The VAST majority of folks would still work, and still produce for their culture and societies.
The difference is QOL.
That’s really the biggest rub. Owners want people on the edge of survival who are required to work to survive
Having the space to take care of myself is how I'm better now.
Toxic job led to my breakdown. Was that better than just letting me try again? Welfare cheaper…
And that, as far as capital is concerned, is exactly the problem. You would no longer be a desperate, whipped dog working under the threat of starvation. Your work would be something they'd need to bargain to gain.
Now I'm on disability.
the sort of nation that would be willing to give out UBI would theoretically also be left enough to regulate the shit out of landlords.
so that argument only holds up in a country like america where we would never do either
Why haven’t you heard of them? American and some Canadian studies that show this could not be published in peer-reviewed journals because technically the studies weren’t finished. Gov’ts end them w/ great preliminaries…
I MEAN, LOOK AT THIS TAPDANCING IDIOCY:
UBI will come to America when it can be used to subsidize these re-shored “phone factory” jobs, which require paying a sub-minimum wage to keep prices down. w/o regs it’s just corporate welfare.
"WORK HARD AND YOU WILL GET THE REWARDS".
Two of the biggest lies ever told.
Fuck work ethic. That's just conditioning to generate more wealth for the rich.
https://www.amazon.ca/Humankind-Hopeful-History-Rutger-Bregman/dp/0316418536
There's a reason that the most functional social democracies are Calvinist countries, if work ethic is part of culture, a strong safety net won't reduce labor supply.
It is "free riders" who erode social support for safety net expenditures, a warning to Progressives.
People like to do things. Universal Income will let them do things more useful.
#becurious ✌🏾
Gotta keep the capitalist shitshow dictatorship going, am I right?
Like with the student loan forgiveness. THE argument I kept hearing was “I already paid off mine. It’s not fair to me.”
(Fixing the school system, despite it being directly under attack. This will become a conversation about the school system if you don’t ignore the parentheses)
Now do a “Wow, universal healthcare works!”
This experiment has been done, repeated, since the 1970s. Canada, England, Finland, the US (several places) Germany... I don't know how many other places.
EVERY SINGLE TIME this is the result.
Not a bit surprising anymore.
People like not having to worry about things like food and rent.
Why isn't it implemented already?
With ubi, the rich lose the power to ruin your life at will. They suddenly can't force you to work for them or starve.
You let some "escape" and the remaining cap-doffers would recognise the lies they've been told for generations.
Arbeit macht frei.
Women who have stable income leave their deadbeat, cruel husbands and “break up families.” If these men cannot keep a woman in marriage with financial coercion, they can’t keep a wife.
Good forbid we raise the standards for marriage, and reward the good men…
And wage slavery…
- Demographics.
- What type of jobs these people work.
- The sum is likely not massive, about the equivalent of $1500. a month. What would happen if you gave people $3000, $5000? (Giving $1500 a month would not even come close to ALLOWING many people to quit their job.)
And all types of work.
Not sure you've grasped the idea of UBI. It's not meant to be an *alternative* to work, it's meant to be a helping hand.
When you have NOTHING, $1500 dollars a month means EVERYTHING.
The only losers are the crappy employers offering even crappier jobs, and those preying on the vulnerable (drug runners etc).
Practically every HS guidance counselor asker that question about what you'd do with a million dollars.
Don't remember too many people answering with "nothing" or "lay around".
Right?
Better ignore it and carry on as usual.
Oh, surprise, people who can hold a job, held jobs. Try lazy bums next time, or a mixture of bums and workers. See how bums showered with money would affect work ethics of the workers
Also, for the record, the only "Lazy bums" are billionaires who have literally done zero work in their lives, and landlords, who profit off of fucking over others.
Better make it illegal. It's bad when people get help and improve the economy because it imperceptibly shrinks the wealth gap between people and billionaires, which is worse than the Holocaust.
Chokin’ on my own rage here…