It won't matter in the court of public opinion which is what matters to policy discussions.
No one will be surprised if he goes to jail for killing a guy. It won't stop them from rooting for him. And the worse he's treated by the legal system the bigger of a hero he'll become.
Big assumption on your part that it was even written by Mangione. I've seen linguists put it against his other writings and say it doesn't even compare.
If young white men can get a slap on the wrist for raping unconscious women because a conviction would “ruin their lives,” then I don’t think it’s beyond thinking that this guy can beat the rap.
To the 11 LADIES and gentleman of the jury: His heart, his sweet, blessed heart, was in the right place. He saw so many good innocent Americans being cheated and had to act to save them from the evil care deniers aka The Martyr Defense.
Defense gets a forensic psychiatrist to opine on diminished capacity—like under such a mental disturbance at the time could not form legal intent for first degree murder—that could be a hook for just one on jury to refuse to convict on m1 and drive it down to second degree or manslaughter
Oh for sure, I didn't even get into less empirical elements, like whether the defense will run a sympathy play along the lines of "his severe back injury required surgery, and heavy doze painkillers, and both of those things left his judgement in tatters".
Exactly , survive prosecution ‘s Daubert challenge with a good expert and that’s now a question for 12 random people who have to be unanimous to get a conviction, with everything else in background , nothing is in the bag for the prosecution
Basically, the state has already lost this case regardless of whether they get a conviction or not; either he gets away or they become just as much the villain of the story as the guy he allegedly shot
The victim won't be helped by a conviction and enjoys absolutely no public support, while the defendant is essentially a folk hero. In fact, even if he goes to prison it will be a nightmare for the jailors because the public WILL be keeping an eye on his treatment
And in this case, the prosecution are also going to find themselves wondering just how much money would even make it worthwhile to try very hard, given the enormous target it will paint on their own heads
That would not be hard, actually, as he had a sudden change, cut off contact with everyone for months, after a traumatic event (major surgery that went poorly), at an age common for schizophrenia to appear, and acted in a way not recognized by friends or family.
Are you talking about his manifesto? He wasn't specific about what he was apologizing for. What I saw was pretty vague. However I heard that there were several fakes floating about so who knows.
Criminal defense practitioner here: Since identity doesn’t seem to be an issue here and his defense will likely be some sort of diminished capacity, his unhinged rantings in the written statements could be a part of establishing a defense.
That’s a good point. But I would like to see more of the writings. If it’s as they say reminiscent of the Unabomber, then there would be some things that don’t align with popular sentiment.
I do wonder what his defence attorneys will do. Maybe trot out loads of victims of denied coverage and focus on the “moral” side? You aren’t allowed to tell a jury to do jury nullification in the USA are you (which seems strange to me - why have it all then?)
Charging something they're dead certain they can get a conviction on, leaving room for a superseding indictment as they continue gathering evidence. My guess as a non-lawyer.
Whoa. I'm used to thinking of first-degree murder as premeditated murder. This is like a complex "aggravated murder" construct. I did not have the faintest idea about this! Thanks!
ladies and gentlemen of the jury. did my client gun down that guy? sure looks that way. did he admit it? no he did ... ah shucks wait he also did that. judge, can I start my closing statement over
Jurors is MURDER even a crime? Who knows? All these fancy government lawyers with their fancy degrees will point to laws saying it is, and I guess we just have to believe them now? What is this? You gonna let a government lawyer man tell you to read? Anyway
"Through the ages, we've always had murder. In fact, that's how most societies throughout time have advanced and prospered. Are you gonna let these so-called "law" experts hold back Progress! Hold back Prosperity!"
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I would like you for just one moment to imagine that the defendant was actually Donald Trump. It is your duty as an American to dismiss all charges.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, did my client confess to killing this man? Yes he did, but let me ask you: what if he had it coming? My bad, I should have expected that'd be overruled, yeah."
Wookies are from Kashyyk. Chewbacca is a Wookie, but he lives on Endor. It doesn't make any sense! If it doesn't make sense, you must acquit Mr. Mangioni. Thank you.
"How do we know it was a murder? The victim in question had engaged in drunk driving and insider trading, as well as policies that killed millions of Americans. Why would he be walking down the street with no security unless he wanted to be gunned down or fake his own death? Show us the body."
ladies and gentlemen of the jury... have you ever heard of a word? everyone says it's a bird. that the bird is the word. if a bird is a word what do words even mean? my client is innocent.
What about the uber-wealthy defense? You know the Trump mechanism of fighting everything & appealing every loss & seeking en banc rehearings & /or transfer to the state SCT & then by writ of certiorari to the SCOTUS rinse & repeat ad infinitum?
The judge will absolutely tell you that you *must* convict if all of the elements of the crime were proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s an academic point to a degree but you can just not find that regardless of the evidence or refuse to vote to convict. It’s still a free country!
It’s not a lie. It’s an instruction on the duty of a citizen juror when assessing the evidence. You are not obligated to do it. Most people don’t understand the difference of course nor is it something any authorities are eager to acknowledge.
Having represented unpopular corporate defendants before juries, someone who guns down a father and husband to bleed to death on the cold pavement isn’t going to be acquitted because people have had bad experiences with insurance. You can think insurers suck and still apply the law as you swear to.
Probably not but a guy making tens of millions of dollars a year to specifically not provide life saving healthcare to desperate people is not just a “corporate defendant” and it seems a lot of people have not quite grasped the implications of that realization.
You realize, his intent is to "Delay, Deny, Depose" right?
He made that super clear. He's going to drag out and pick *every single* delaying option he can find to waste time and preach the sermon he's decided to preach.
I see. The version I’ve seen shows deliberation and a conviction that the killing was necessary, but to believe that he must do it is fairly irrational.
Having an irrational belief, on its own, does not furnish a mental health defense.
Also, practically speaking, success at a mental health defense would mean that he is civilly committed to an asylum -- probably indefinitely -- which many people would consider worse than life in prison.
Mangione should be seen as a product of eight years of the MAGA assault on law and order.
If the president can rape women and plot coups with impunity, if the entire justice system is stacked for oligarchs like Musk, Trump and Alito, some will feel there should be consequences for oligarchs.
Would your comment change if this was done under a Democratic regime? Because last I checked the Dems were in power. I agree with the sentiment of your comment but this has more to do with oligarchy and corporate capture than specifically MAGA. Those evils are bipartisan.
If he can get a jury composed solely of the thirsty folks I’ve seen in comments over on Reddit, I believe he will be acquitted because he’s too handsome to go to prison. 🤷🏻♂️
Regardless of this specific case, If murder was allowed if you had a "strong personal justification", there would be a lot more murder, including those with really poor justifications.
If Trump can get away with a murderous coup, mass (preventable) Covid death, nonstop grifting and corruption, bribery, rape, lying constantly & being a complete fucking moron, I say let Luigi go. Clearly crime is legal in the US now. Just look at Trump, his family & his cabinet nominees.
Psychologist here: he will have the best lawyers his wealthy family can buy and will get off on an insanity defense, having been driven crazy by chronic severe pain
It’s surprising how often this kind of evidence shows up. I do bad faith cases and I stopped being surprised a long time ago by emails between insurance bros outright admitting fraud.
I got one this week where bro 1 and bro 2 agree to sell the wrong coverage to increase their commissions. “Tell them they are covered and hopefully this issue doesn’t come up.”
does the prosecution try to weed people out in voir dire because they had bad experiences with health insurers? because if so -- uh you are not going to seat a jury.
go with some weak-sauce insanity defense based on the back pain and lean into "ladies and gentlemen of the jury you are the ultimate deciders of fact here -- you decide whether Luigi should be held criminally culpable for this act -- you know what is morally correct."
I disagree slightly. He wasn't planning to win on innocence - his plan was Jury Nullification from the jump, and that manifesto will be fine for that, I think.
Jackie Chiles voice: ""You wrote a confession? Who told you to write a confession? I didn't tell you to write a confession. Why'd you write a confession?"
Comments
NY Gov. Kathy Hochul said yesterday she will issue a governor’s warrant for Mangione’s extradition.
Mangione will plead not guilty to the charges in PA and is expected to do the same in NY.
His fingerprints have been found at the NYC crime scene.
No one will be surprised if he goes to jail for killing a guy. It won't stop them from rooting for him. And the worse he's treated by the legal system the bigger of a hero he'll become.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-12-03/column-musk-and-the-gop-unveil-an-attack-on-social-security-based-on-lies
Also, the defendant is attractive.
And white.
And rich.
And he killed someone no one is sympathetic towards.
Still got a few chips on his side.
Also I'm not a lawyer
He's not all there...mentally.
I think its too short really to call it a "manifesto."
2) Don't be so sure he can't Rittenhouse his way to an acquital.
Rittenhouse and Zimmerman got away with deliberate murder. Don't be so sure a jury will convict.
We are not a nation of laws.
See, Trump v U.S.
The Fully Informed Jury Association.
He made that super clear. He's going to drag out and pick *every single* delaying option he can find to waste time and preach the sermon he's decided to preach.
Nutjobs can be determined. Reminds me of Se7ven.
I was on a Manhattan Jury..diverse as diverse can be.
We acquitted over lunch.
Ya never know with those Manhattan juries.
He will plead insanity.
Also, practically speaking, success at a mental health defense would mean that he is civilly committed to an asylum -- probably indefinitely -- which many people would consider worse than life in prison.
His only realistic chance of acquittal is to Rittenhouse off the charges through jury nullification.
If a twinky defense can work for MAGA chuds, it can work for anyone.
CEOs should be safe walking the streets, but so should protestors and schoolkids should be safe in schools.
If the president can rape women and plot coups with impunity, if the entire justice system is stacked for oligarchs like Musk, Trump and Alito, some will feel there should be consequences for oligarchs.
Last I checked, Thomas took millions of dollars in bribes from Crow, Kavenaugh is a rapist and Alito has a swastika flying over his house.
The GOP corrupted court gave the rapist insurrectionist immunity.
Their corruption is entirely on the GOP who installed them.
If I was one of your students I'd demand a refund.
We don't have high standards here for no reason.
“You know when you eat a grape at the supermarket, technically it’s stealing, but everyone understands* it isn’t stealing stealing.”
*as long as they are rich & white.
Then he gets punked on the handgun charges...
The issue came up.
you'll at least hang the jury
but maybe the cops are intentionally trying to taint the jury pool
they've been harmed by health insurance too
He wants to drag this out in the courts so more people are engaged in Anti Humanitarian treatment from vile corporations