“I got a job in Canada because I’m scared of where this country is going” does not send the heroic, bold message these guys think it does, especially after they’ve let it just become a huge media blitz.
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Intellectuals like them tend to be of the first groups sent to concentration camps BTW. Racial/ sexual minorities first, then the intellectuals who have knowledge that threaten the regime. You're advocating for them to stay & be thrown into a camp rather than helping to fight from a safe distance
I think they've left because they see that the American people are incapable of rebelling against the rapist regime. 100 million should be in the streets
They didn't write books telling others to sacrifice themselves for freedom. (Rule 20 in Snyder's On Tyranny. Its the hypocrisy of asking others to do what you will not. If you are leaving, and I understand that, don't splash it around like you are a good guy. You are a coward.
Guess you missed the part of history where many of people who fled the Nazi's helped lead to the defeat of the axis powers. How did all those brave people who ended up in concentration camps assist the war effort?
Activist students are being deported.
Who cares about a couple of rich airport book authors taking a temporary position in Toronto? This is a PR campaign.
1) So, you'd blame the Jews for leaving Germany? Blame a Tutsi for fleeing Rwanda? Blame Masha Gessen for leaving Russia?
This is utter nonsense. If you believe the country's being overwhelmed by Fascism, or Christian Dominionism, or White Nationalism.- or all three!!! - your assessment of
Emigration from other countries happens routinely because of domestic threats. It's bizarre to believe this country's an exception. People who believe they're threatened and take steps to save themselves and their families don't deserve opprobrium.
Because only suffering is good, I guess? They're scholars, there is absolutely no benefit to anyone here or elsewhere if they scholar here vs there, but significantly more risk to them here. It's not meant to be heroic, it's a warning.
At the very least - if you wrote a handbook to surviving tyranny and this was not one of the steps you listed - you should be prepared for questions. Like why wasn’t “Flee and make commentary from abroad is the best course of action” the first lesson in the book? Why tell people to die for freedom?
I think this is the best response. At best, the decision to flee the US gives rise to fear-mongering and panic among people who have no choice but to stay. At worst, it smacks of elitism, cowardice and hypocrisy. If everyone who could leave did leave, who is left to fight? Those with less power.
They aren't trying to be heroic, they are trying to stay out of prison. Authoritarians hate intellectuals and academics generally, and especially those who expose their methods.
Where are they more useful as intellectual experts on authoritarianism? In a neighboring country where they are safe and able to continue their research and advocacy, or in the US where academic freedom is being pulverized and the possibility of being arrested is real? Not mad at them at all.
I am thinking so too. They have decided to save their own skin because we are doomed. It’s going to take outside intervention, probably from a nasty war, to reform the USA without fascism baked right in.
No, them complying would be to shut up and act like what is happening is normal and no big deal. They are literally making articles and videos about how things are so authoritarian they are setting up opposition orgs for long term planning of fighting it. Like it not, that’s not “complying”.
I don't blame them, though. They were worried they would lose their job in the USA and secured a new one in Canada that is free from political interference.
Tim Snyder screamed at us non-stop to come to our senses and recognize the authoritarian assault. He published books, he authorized derivative works (a graphic novel version of his On Tyranny bestseller). He posted his ass off on SM.
At this point, I think he's justified in washing his hands.
Except that his books exhort us to be prepared to sacrifice all for Freedom. Guess that means us little people, not big self-important intellectuals like Snyder. He is a hypocrite. That's why some folks are disgusted. Okay leave, but don't ask the rest of us to hold the door for you.
Well if you look, I reposted an article Snyder wrote for the Yale News back in April which says he had decided to leave last summer and it had nothing to do with Trump. Okay, now I am confused.
Not that this is at all relevant to the discussion, but I'm a civil rights attorney who has several ongoing lawsuits against the Trump administration. I've been practicing civil rights law for a decade.
Sincere props to you for that _extremely_ important work, and all possible luck with it.
I'll continue to defend Prof. Snyder, because I fundamentally don't view it as his job to save America from its idiocy. And he really did sacrifice a heroic amount of personal time trying to warn us.
☮️
Except that he's not washing his hands of it. He's continuing the work from Toronto, in hopes of returning safely to Yale if he can help it conclude successfully.
You were never going to put up a fight. When anyone suggests it you guys clutch pearls and scream about how even protest will cause the US to spawn in 6 trillion soldiers from the phantom zone.
Yep. All those people complaining in the comments just make my blood boil. I would try to survive .
Sure they are privileged doing it, but as a scientist I would do everything to just record this from the outside
They warned everyone that there was a fire. Everyone ignored the warnings and stayed in the building. Now the building is crumbling and the people who warned them are leaving. And all the other people are screaming in anger that they didn't stay in to burn to death with them due to their inaction.
The way I see it, they already did their part; it's not their fault no one listened to them. Getting out while they still can to continue working elsewhere makes perfect sense.
They have been studying this shit for decades & trying to warn us...and they're leaving so they can continue to. It's not their responsibility to be un-personed to serve as an object lesson for our dumb asses. They've done their bit. Now let's do ours...without the circular firing squad. My .02.
Thank you. The amount of contempt here is dumbfounding. They studied this (as have I). They see the public's lethargy in response to autocracy—the institutional complicity. They know what comes next (as do I).
That something meant as a wake up call should be framed as betrayal is jingoism run amok.
Ya, like the guy in this thread who blocked me. He's furious, at these "elites". Sounds like a right winger to me. Instead of appreciating their bravery for speaking out, he condemns them. I wonder if he calls his plumber an elite when the plumber recommends the best way to fix plumbing...
I know I'm two for two in quoting myself in this thread, but it's only to illustrate how much you and I are on the same page on this.
The FoxNews disinformation machine really seems to have hoodwinked mainstream America into gaslighting itself to self-destruction. (And PP would do the same here).
I have no issue with them publicizing they left for a freer environment for themselves and safety for their families. I can't go, but would if I could...I'm old with no money. I don't want to live among so many awful people, including some of the critics of Prof. Snyder et al.
They are highlighting that knowledge-holders are endangered & to be able to continue sharing that knowledge in the face of that danger, they are leaving. We all need to understand the significance of that.
And after exhorting the rest of us to be prepared to sacrifice all for freedom. Snyder is an out of touch intellectual if he thinks his publicizing his running away is a positive look.
I do not judge anyone for leaving. I heard an expression from WW2 that struck me. They said, 'pessimists went to New York, and optimists went to the camps.' If you are in a targeted group and you see the guardrails falling away, I do not at all blame that person for leaving.
I know, I'm with you (sorry, we've hit the point of the week where I think I'm clear I'm in agreement but my brain and my words no longer mesh--my apologies)
Exactly. I left Indiana ~2 years ago because of similar concerns about what was coming/already in progress, but I didn't try to do a whole podcast circuit about it.
I mean, based on everything I learned about the disappearing of “political dissidents” in South America in the 70s, their choice to leave doesn’t seem unreasonable. And America kind of needs to hear fascism warnings shouted from the rooftops. IMHO…
i dont think academics are the ones who's warnings are audible to the public. I think front line organizers who know how to talk to people are and are not so easily able to move due to lack of jobs in places where they have no ties and not having as much money.
My sense is that people are feeling like these guys aren’t recognizing the immense privilege they have to be able to leave. Those who have been organizing and doing the dirty work for years likely don’t have that ability and people are feeling insulted.
I honestly don't have as much of a problem with the Shore/Snyder/Stanley move as others seems to but the task of the media blitz should be to draw attention to those who are already vulnerable, and they're not succeeding at doing this
It suggests that studying fascism and fighting fascism are overlapping but not necessarily identical skill sets, and I don't mean that as a dunk.
This may already be a subtopic in fascism studies, but the way in which knowledge of it does not necessarily protect against it seems urgently relevant.
It also points to the larger problem that much of the fascism debate has been marred by "I find these particular advocates of the [fascism | not fascism] hypothesis a bit [annoying | twee | strident | unsophisticated]" etc.
The other problem (I say this as someone who left 5 years ago, aware of but not because of rising fascism) is that it's EASY for foreign universities to hire prominent political scientists.
It's a lot harder to spring for new labs for scientists.
The authoritarian Right is ascendant everywhere. Moving seems like delaying the inevitable, and, while I don’t think what happens in the US is as determinative of world events as others, if fascism wins out here then it’s likely unstoppable anywhere, if only because it’ll control the US’ resources.
There's no link so I'm sure to be missing context but given all the "I'm a fascism scholar and this isn't fascism" articles from 2016 onward I feel like ones like this could be a necessary and useful corrective? What am I missing? 🙂
I’m torn. I dislike the farewell tour aspect, but maybe they hope to awaken Dems into, I don’t know, consistently opposing the regime with actions like Booker’s that garnered much attention? (The failure to be an opposition party is devastating.) Sadly, few here will are if academics are silenced.
It is my understanding they Study Fascism hence when they speak out they become a target in tRump's USA. Americans must continue to protest tRump's evil Regime.
#TrumpIsDestroyingAmerica
Oh please. I teach and research on the far right and am far less secure than they are. After all, Tim is the one who kept going about not "complying in advance." Put up or shut up Tim.
I don't blame people for leaving, and they're welcome here, but yea. Shit isn't going to fix itself, and the only people that can fix it are Americans.
Bad take, especially when it's trans people fleeing. What, was Einstein supposed to stick it out? Of course not, going to Princeton in late 32 after the elections was the right call.
Also essential context: have American Jews lost their citizenship, civil and political rights, and their property? Has the government incited pogroms? Are they being openly threatened with deportation and extermination? Has the Republican Party platform declared that the Jews are our enemy?
I have no problem with any trans person fleeing. None, although I do hope wherever you end up isn’t worse. But Snyder isn’t trans. He could be targeted for his views, yes. But he’s got a lot more privilege and he’s been saying resist don’t give in. It’s kind of different to me.
He exhorted us to stop the train. We didn't. Now he's getting off the tracks, since he's part of the group of people who will (as he knows from being literally a historian) be among the first to be hit by it. He's not morally obligated to sacrifice his life because not enough people listened to him.
My point is that he should then retract telling others to sacrifice themselves if he is unwilling to sacrifice himself. Plenty of braver people will be targets - Marc Elias for example - before some cotton wooled professor at a wealthy and powerful institution.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that they think their message is either heroic or bold. I didn't get that at all. I just think that they are sending a message of warning to everybody else. It should be heeded.
I’m Canadian and we are trying to figure out if we can get the fuck out of North America. They may be safe here for awhile - but the fascists next door and the traitors in our midst are just biding their time. They won’t be able to resist the water and other resources. There will be blood 😔
Obviously, the publicity push is to emphasize that they, experts that they are, feel that the situation is very, very serious. Saying it is one thing, changing jobs and countries shows that they really are serious.
A lot of smart people don't seem concerned at all, yet.
So, I think it's helpful.
Isn't the PR "fighting"? Maybe he's doing the most effective thing he could do, given his background. I'd rather have someone successfully reaching large numbers of people with credible warnings of fascism than having the same person at a protest.
Not wrong!dI would however prefer having that person stay than exhort others to make sacrifices they are obviously unwilling to do and make a big deal of their failyre to live up to their own standards I do take your point that a soft ivy professor is probably not a good candidate to show courage.
You distorted my point. My point was that his action may have been the most effective thing he could do, for the reasons I stated, and he is continuing to fight.
In other areas, the threat to most academics is not arrest or violence, but a lot may have their careers destroyed.
Well I agree with Tom Nichols (a professor) that our fascism is probably not going to go down the incendiary route. Ours is more pernicious. It's about Voter Suppression distorting elections and $.
And someone with the ability to look into the future, such as an expert in the history of authoritarianism, could very well see the threat escalating. I, personally, have nagging concern that the U.S. could spiral down more quickly than it feels.
Up here, we're gearing up for a long-term, multi-frontline fight. We could lose, and lose big - maybe even everything - and we're still convinced that it's necessary. Moving to a place willing to take that risk matters.
What makes you think heroism is their goal and not survival.
Give us one fucking reason to have hope that US is going to pull out of the fascist death spiral were in. I’ll stay and fight but have no illusions; I don’t begrudge those who think it’s time to head for the emergency exits. The problem
With due respect everyone has options. Just ask the people who swim rivers or walk deserts to get here so they can work slave labor wages before they disappeared by ICE. If they can do migration, so can you.
The question is if you think the regime will soon start coming for white people, too.
There another angle to this as well: lots of academics - particularly high-end scientists- are concluding the US doesn’t value them any longer and figure they might as well go somewhere that does.
Those with “get-up-and-go” are getting up and leaving. Brain drain sucks.
is that a fascist United States will soon start to export destruction. How long before Cheetolini decides he needs to war to remain in power? Canada, Greenland, and Panama are already in his sights. When I flee it’ll be to someplace that has nukes.
If I had the means, I'd be fucking gone. They left because they saw the inevitable. Americans are too stupid and selfish to save ourselves. What's coming is death and suffering. And there's no one to stop it. We have more non-voters than voters in this country. Half the country is unaware,
I'd be gone if I could bc I'm frustrated/scared. I'm all for a Gen Strike. I've desperately been trying to save money and buy canned foods. They will not take me willingly (on your pt 2).
P.S. Didn't even have to study it to see a fascist takeover happening
You, personally, should run because wet babies are useless against fascists. You wanna give up and cry, it's your life, but have you considered a dime bag of self-respect
Helluva motivational speech, sarge. I didn’t say I was gonna run. What I did say is that I haven’t seen a whole lot of effective resistance to the fascists here. Have you? I’m all ears.
Intellectuals like them tend to be of the first groups sent to concentration camps BTW. Racial/ sexual minorities first, then the intellectuals who have knowledge that threaten the regime. You're advocating for them to stay & be thrown into a camp rather than helping to fight from a safe distance
Best to stay and wait to be hauled off, I guess. Anyone with the means or connections to leave, should. Those that can't should lean heavily into the 2A.
not wanting to spend your sunset years in a shit country, that's getting more expensive and authoritarian, isn't obeying in advance. I don't begrudge anyone who wants to leave and does.
I'm stuck here too. I hate it. But this article/video is clearly an attempt to wake up sleeping Dem politicos who could be doing much, much more than they're doing now—even just signalboosting Republican corruption much more than they're doing.
Sleeping politicos and also the general public, I imagine. And all these comments are from people who were already awake and I guess sick of hearing how fucked they are. But if you don't want to hear how fucked you are maybe don't pay any attention to news, I don't really know what else to say lmao
Sure, but even so there are whole families on foot, with nothing but the clothes on their backs, trying to make it to the US, without a fraction of the options of some of the people commenting.
Also worth noting that Einstein was still a member of the faculty at the Prussian Academy of Sciences when he left; Jewish academicians weren’t stripped of their positions en masse until a month later
I don’t think leaving is the same as complying in advance, BUT, I do think it’s awful high and mighty to say “oh you guys who are stuck here, you should do X.” That being said I don’t think they actually had good/realistic solutions in there book—often they’re stuck on so the book isn’t a bummer
Can you articulate why that's such a dumb comparison? A prominent academic left a country while fascism was clearly on the rise even before he was stripped of his actual position, academics are obviously huge targets under authoritarians, what's the fucking issue?
you can't?! foreign agents will radioactively poison snyder at first chance - given the sudden drop in gov competence (let alone outright malice in his case) i would find shelter w/ a gov intel agency i could trust...
Intellectuals like them tend to be of the first groups sent to concentration camps BTW. Racial/ sexual minorities first, then the intellectuals who have knowledge that threaten the regime. You're advocating for them to stay & be thrown into a camp rather than helping to fight from a safe distance
Even if they're fleeing and not helping the fight, what the fuck are we even doing here? Flee! Why are these morons judging them for getting their families out of harm's way? Jealousy that they have a little money and can afford to move?
As a country with our own fascist problem, "we are not going to fight using our privileged position but simply flee" is absolutely not the type of person we want coming here, either. If you've already shown you have no stomach for it, please ship off elsewhere.
I fixed it.
Rule 21: Leave as soon as you can and get paid to lecture the plebes you left behind how they aren’t doing it right. Write a book called “Told You So” and never worry about anything ever again.
But they are among the fraction of a percent of academics in this country that have the luxury to be able to ring up U of Toronto and ask if there are any endowed professorships available
So what? Their voices are important. We should be putting them and their colleagues on planes ourselves and getting them out of here before those voices are silenced.
Not sure what your point is here. If you know of a mechanism for ordinary, often precariously employed faculty to find employment in Canada, then I'm all ears
If you think, though, that the only voices worthy of preservation are star academics like Snyder, that's problematic at best
So you begrudge someone who could go because you can’t? I’m saying we should be funding all academics to get them out if they want to go. I fully understand that we’re not doing that, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to condemn those who were able to get out.
I'm pointing out a structural inequality in academia, where one very small cluster of scholars can pick up a phone and arrange a target of opportunity hire for themselves, while almost everyone else cannot. In those circumstances, an op-ed like this chafes a bit.
I suppose one answer would be “as a response to the inevitable ‘if it is so bad why are you staying’”comments.
I dunno. It doesn’t seem outlandish for someone who studies fascism to want to publicly say “yeah the state of this place is so fucked that I’m getting outta here. Y’all think on that.”
You can’t possibly be this stupid. These people are getting daily death threats AND they have this opportunity to raise awareness of how desperate the situation is.
We should be putting all these voices on planes and getting them the hell out of here before they are silenced permanently.
If you’re going to leave, just go. No need to announce it in the NYT. I get that you’re doing what’s best for you and your family, and that’s fine. But we don’t need the public farewell. Spare us the “I got out — praying for the rest of you.”
They had Toronto courting them for quite a while. I have no issue if they now decide that Trump 2.0 is the thing that changes the scale. And he is a scholar, not a opposition politician.
That said, I don't like the NYT piece and the framing of this as some sort of exterritorial opposition camp.
If you read the book, you would know this had nothing to do with obeying in advance. Similarly, if you think about the word "obey" you'll also realize that *fleeing* is in no way *obeying*.
If you’re going tell people to take a stand and oppose authoritarianism, and then trot off to Toronto, people are going to perhaps suggest that your heart’s not in it
Quite honestly, I think it’s absurd to act as though there’s some threshold of “enough” political violence and only when that’s satisfied is it ok to leave.
Hannah Arendt barely got out of Europe alive because she misjudged the moment things became too dangerous to stay and fight.
This is not Nazi Germany, and none of us are Hannah Arendt. But I realize that people like you do not want to be denied the sense of drama that’s saying so brings.
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything." https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
I'm a US democracy policy guy with a career focused entirely on US domestic politics and law. What am I supposed to get from this stuff other than "it's easier for democracy experts to leave when they're on the academic side"?
True true. Maybe more transferable training, but everything i know about the academic job market comes from internet academics posting about how awful the academic job market is, so
Resistence is best served by free voices. That looks increasingly unviable in US academia. Also, I think his wife got an opportunity and it's actually quite refreshing to see a husband prioritise his wife's career for a change.
Exactly. Snyder esp make how much money telling us all how to be good stewards of democracy then violated his “words of wisdom”. Whatever he says, he complied in advance.
One of Snyder and others who focus on fascism is that many comply/obey in advance rather than fighting back. Snyder talks about this in On Tyranny. So he tells us what NOT to do while making $ off us then complies in advance.
No actually the headline is inaccurate and his reasons are quite different from the other two. I don’t know why they threw him in here—it’s actually quite misleading.
“Snyder’s reasons…Primarily, he’s leaving to support his wife & children & teach at a large public uni in Toronto, a place he can host conversations about freedom. At the same time he…worries those kinds of conversations will become ever harder to have here”
I don't think this is obeying in advance, I also don't think they are presenting themselves as heroes for leaving. I think they are just using their expertise to tell us how fucked we are and recommending we start facing the reality we live in rather than pretending we aren't fucked yet.
Honestly, if anything, the amount of pushback and stiffened spines I have seen the last few months have strengthened my resolve to stay unless I have absolutely no choice
Piling on a Jewish family whose parents fled Poland for leaving *before* it comes to that is incredible.
They’ll be much more use to the cause in Canada than they will in prison, or even just at home, terrified.
The cause of helping others to cope w / resist tyranny.
Isn’t that a value that you share?
Emigrating is not obeying in advance. You know better than this.
My point is that this is not a "cause," and if people just showed up and voted this would be over. Instead, we're going to argue about dramatic, performative acts.
Should they wait until they aren't allowed to leave the country? Everyone has a different level of panic when it comes to a fascist government. If I was younger and had money, I'd leave, too. It gets worse by the day!
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything." https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
I think some people want to get out while they still can. While our government will let us and while other countries will accept us. That doesn't seem like "obeying". We can still vote from abroad to affect change. In many ways, it feels like the Handmaid's Tale is a blueprint for MAGA/Project 2025.
If he were obeying in advance, I imagine Snyder would rather say:
"As much as I disagree with President Trump, he did win the election and we academics have lost public trust. I think universities should look for ways to work with this administration, rather than 'resist' or whatever the heck."
I don’t consider it obeying. Governments need people; they’re nothing without them. I’m deeply committed to this country but make no bones about the fact that sometimes you have to deny the government, well, *you.*
Seems like a tactical retreat. If a fight is coming, there's no reason to leave ourselves vulnerable to attack. Snyder and others can continue to publish and inspire in Canada, all while not leaving the resistance vulnerable to losing a thought leader.
If they think the country is in legitimately major trouble, shouldn’t they sound the alarm with a media blitz? It makes sense to me that they use whatever connections they have to get attention.
Well for one thing, @radiofreetom.bsky.social’s comrade at @theatlantic.com, George Packer, wrote a bizarre column about it without ever contacting any of the trio to ask them for a quote, let alone give them a chance to explain.
lI'd guess that it emanates from and fuels the belief that it's unpatriotic bordering on treasonous to argue that we're descending into fascism on a national level. Boosting spokesmen for the idea with weak allegiance, to then apply disloyalty by association to those who aren't leaving.
Can anyone summarize the video, bc I don't know whether that would explain anything or not. I'm also not interested in judging individuals' decisions. Some have family members at great risk. And that is esp. understandable. Perhaps they also don't want their institutions (Yale, for ex.) to pay.
I haven't really followed the media blitz… is there any mention of how privileged they are to have the option of moving to jobs at a top institution in another country? As opposed to many other scholars (incl esp immigrants esp from global south) who don't get such escape options easily?
Everyone around you is talking about it because you're an academic. All news is online, but we don't all live in shared online spaces. Substack newsletters have pumped this story but not everyone walking around is wondering which fascism expert is fleeing the US. Broader coverage is a good thing.
ah ok that screws up everything. he is very adamant that he is not leaving because of Trump. But she is leaving because of Trump. Aren't her reasons for leaving elements in his decision too, as her husband? FFS I give up on these people.
It’s in the opinion section though. Does the New York Times solicit content for that section? I feel like the general answer is definitely not for an op ed, but not sure for these video pieces.
Whichever way, I'm grateful for it. Not enough people are aware that there comes a time to go, or perhaps that going is an option. Einstein spoke to reporters in Britain after he fled - who knows what influence that had on some who might've otherwise stayed.
Is the intent to be seen as heroic or to be a canary in the coal mine? Staying and fighting is certainly a noble cause but choosing to save yourself isn't a sin either...
Yeah if you study fascism something I literal did and do it's up to weirdo and nerds get there's hands dirty. Just shows most tenured faculty are bitch made.
Snyder said that was part of his thinking. how could it not be? there were other personal factors. not sure why people think they get to judge things they don't know about. righteousness is cheap, I guess.
OTOH, I went to school with kids who wouldn't have existed if their parents hadn't skeedaddled out of 1938 Germany, so perhaps "heroic" isn't the message we should be expecting.
It isn't intended to be heroic. The article is intended to reach people who think what is happening isn't rising authoritarianism. They are trying to use the pull they have to further show how serious this is.
I agree with you -- they're not trying to be heroes. They're keeping themselves safe and doing what they can to raise the alarm. Very easy to be critical from the sidelines. I agree with the "dont comply in advance, stay and fight if you can" philosophy but we shouldnt judge their situation
There’s a long history of political dissidents working from outside their countries when necessary in order to effectuate change, then returning when the time is right.
Respectfully disagree. It’s not a binary choice - in today’s connected world, academics can publish and fight while ALSO removing themselves to a safe haven, where they can continue research if things get really bad. (And they can even come back here in person to protest, at least for now.)
I'm not sure "my family history involves only a tiny fraction surviving a genocide less than 100 years ago, and I'm not willing to let that happen again" was intended to be heroic, except towards the surviving parts of the family that they want to save from slaughter. They don't owe anyone anything
I can’t believe that when I was 15, I considered myself to be extraordinarily lucky to be born in Southern California. I thought that living in the best state in the greatest country was winning the lottery of life. Now I hope my daughter is able to emigrate to Canada.
Shore says it early on in the video. “The lesson of 1933 is you get out sooner rather than later”. Think that’s it. Rational not courageous, leaving a note on their way out.
You don't have to wait until the arrests and violence happen to do this. As a Latin American of a certain age I lived the South American exile of those who fled to my old country. One doesn't just uproot your life to make a hollow statement. Been there and done that. Please consider it.
They are not trying to be heroes. They are not calling themselves heroes. They are not obligated to be your hero. They are leaving cuz they have the privilege and resources to do so. They are also leaving because their careers would make them some of the first targets once there is no law here.
In On Tyranny, rule #20 says we should be prepared to sacrifice all for Freedom. Author Snyder I guess thinks that rule is only for the 'little people'. Of course he is free to leave, but not to ask others to hold the bridge while he flees
Sure. Doesn't refute my statement...
I also personally believe that the ppl who've been calling out warnings and getting ignored are not required to martyr themselves just to silence their critics. And a professor being present isn't going to greatly affect our resistance.
No but he was a very respected voice of Resistance. It's just not a good look for such a person to call others to sacrifices you yourself are not prepared to make. I lost respect for him, is all. Saves his skin. Okay fair enough, but then keep quiet at least.
He also doesn't have to martyr himself in order to maintain his right of freedom of speech. I, a trans person, would leave this country if I had the resources to do so. Being forced from my country would in no way mean that I cannot continue speaking up for my country from safety. Ridiculous.
This would be a much more convincing counter-appeal if literally any of the vast majority of people who have not yet been directly targeted were doing literally anything at all.
Instead you have 19 people out of 20 staying home for the protests taking place every 4-5 business weeks.
Down 🧵:
"Albert Einstein, J. Robert Oppenheimer, John von Neumann, Kurt Gödel, and lots of other intellectual titans were just happy to have somewhere — anywhere — safe to live and work."
IMO every American who is tired of trying to save republican voters from themselves is fully justified in just saying "nah have fun with that though" and going to a country with a future.
The USA's loss is our gain, in this regard. If you stay, then you'll keep the company you chose, I suppose.
Trumpomuskovia is gearing to try to make sure that we in Canada don't have a future *as Canadians*. Maybe even to make sure we don't have *any* future. We have to work to scupper *that* ambition.
Attacking allies does not send the heroic, bold message you think it does, especially considering the long list of illustrious refugees from Hitler's Germany.
The widespread shitting on people who’ve done more this decade to protect democracy than almost anyone just because they also want to protect themselves is extremely shit.
I’m unfollowing & muting everyone with this arsehole take.
because they aren't sacrificing anything, in fact probably getting raises while boosting their own profile. maybe it'd be different if it was "i'm leaving to teach at a high school or community college in this safer country," but this is essentially a career move
I’ve worked with refugees wheee they had advanced degrees and had them applying for jobs at chipotle, target. There’s a scale when you get to essentially get a promotion in doing the move.
Yes! I understand the conflicted feelings but what this signals is that things are so bad these people are fleeing the country to protect their lives and children.
I don't have the means to leave the country either, so I understand wanting to be hyper critical, but they are trying to stay safe.
I get that they're trying to stay safe. But that doesn't make them heroes. It just makes them people who took an option not available to the large majority of us. Like, for instance, me.
These are scholars. How they can contribute best is in thought and scholarship, and potentially organization. They can do that just as easily and probably more effectively from a country where their scholarship is not under threat.
then it's just resentment and jealousy from the critics. which, fine, but they shouldn't act like he is doing a bad thing if they would also do it themselves given the chance
seems like almost everyone in the replies is reading it the same way I am, which indicates that OP did not word it clearly to reflect the intended meaning
To say nothing of the fact that when they landed here they immediately started making snide commentary about the people still fighting in the place they fled. Stanley just disgusts me for this
Jason Stanley said some disgusting things to a reporter bitching about moving here because not enough journalists want to get murdered. I have never hoped for someone to get extraordinarily renditioned but this one tempts me.
Because he wrote a book exhorting the rest of us to resist tyranny including Rule 20: be prepared to sacrifice all for Freedom. Guess that just means us not him.
As Americans who have spent their whole lives benefiting from American imperialism -- and I include myself among them -- we have a moral obligation to stay here and deal with the consequences of our decadence.
I don’t think they are trying to be heroic. They are simply saying, I study this shit, and I believe I will be prevented from studying and speaking out so I am leaving to go where I can safely continue to do what I do.
It’s not a flex. It’s a statement of their reality. Ignore it at your peril.
On the other hand: "If you think the US really is turning into a fascist dictatorship, why are you still here?" I don't think they're claiming to be heros. Maybe they are trying to help in the best way they can.
Nah. The left can't unite because we have an entire section of pearl clutching apologists at the ready to push back against any solidarity. IE you making excuses for rich elites leaving us all to fight the fight for them so they can come back and be untouchable elites again.
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything." https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
A war between Canada and the U.S. would be terrible and horrific for the Canadian people.
Also, if you haven’t noticed fringe groups such as an Alberta separatist movement have sprouted up after Trump wanted your country. It’s clear the U.S. will stage an info war to try and cause civil unrest.
It would be interesting to know what on the ground organizing they’ve been involved in recently. Not giving talks or lectures but actually working at building an organization and mobilizing people.
Correction: the Jews that were ABLE TO leave Germany in 1933 mostly survived.
There's this persistent myth that estadounidense can simply waltz across the border to Canada (or get on a plane to anywhere else) and be welcomed with open arms. It does not work that way.
It's survival, I don't begrudge anyone with the ways & means to permanently or temporarily leave this insane asylum. It's best our doctors, scientists & enviro specialists leave, to preserve knowledge to have it be used, for good. Perhaps they can come up w an "anti orange" inoculation to save US.
Fascism always starts in a similar fashion, adapts to the country it's in, does horrific stuff, ends badly for everyone. Just because they swapped Hugo Boss for Ray Ban knockoffs doesn't mean they aren't anti-intellectual dipshits
That will surely be a comfort to the people being snatched off the street by masked government agents and sent to foreign slave labor camps not to mention the vulnerable sexual minorities being demonized and erased from public life
The other side of this argument is that fascism brings higher prices and some people may not be able to afford to stay. In our case, looking for a place that has lower cost of living because our benefits are being taken away as prices for just about everything is going up.
Timothy Snyder is not abandoning the U.S. by physically leaving it. He’s protecting his ability to keep fighting for it. He uses language, not physicality.
True but would more of them know about him if he stood with me in front of a Tesla dealership and held a silly sign instead of moving to Canada and publishing books? Doesn’t seem like it. I am not sure I understand what your point is.
I mean it's behind a paywall but I have read and studied everything Snyder and Stanley have done, and heard their excuses for going to Toronto. If they wanted to stay, they could. But keep going.
Historically revolutionaries, scientists, artists, intellectuals, & journalists flee. This is not new. Assata Shakur is still in exile. Leon Trotsky was in exile in Mexico when he was killed. Many Bolsheviks had to return to Russia in early 1917 because they were in exile. That's why asylum exists.
No one is obligated to die with you. Americans will never do anything. Too occupied by comfort. How many have uttered nonsense about jobs and healthcare keeping them from fighting?
Speaking as an academic who also studies and teaches about the shit but lacks the cushy job offers from foreign universities: these headlines irk the hell out of me.
To be fair, one of those people said the primary reason they are moving is because they have two children of color. Sadly, they are the most vulnerable, and that may be the best way to protect them.
Oh I'd buy that. Because I'm sorry, "full professors at Ivy League schools are scared" just makes me roll my eyes. I guess standing and fighting is for us un-tenured plebs.
It also violates one rule I think is important in fighting fascism: To the extent you're able, let the highest profile targets be targeted by the fascist, bc their (political and legal) martyrdom will exact the most damage on the fascist.
And in fact in Nazi Germany such people were specifically not subjected to the worst the regime had in store for others precisely for that reason. Theresienstadt was established as a 'model camp' where famous Jews and dissidents were sent.
Snyder's pretty high profile (On Tyranny's been a consistent best-seller through both Trump terms), and I do think there's at least something to be said for such voices venturing just across the border to less readily targetable institutions as might give their voices a bit of exile amplification.
If they left their positions, they’re no longer tenured. And if you’re really in higher ed, you know it’ll take them years to ever get it at their new positions…if ever.
But you go on helping the fascists promote their right wing populism by branding academics as “elitists”.
I’m also annoyed. My graduate studies are put on hold and I can’t teach K-12 in my state without risking lawsuits. Yeah, we also know the dangers. We can’t leave bc we don’t have nice jobs waiting for us elsewhere.
My revision is that writing in the Yale News he says that he had decided last summer, before the election! go move to Toronto. So now I totally don't get why the publicity he's gone because US is becoming fascist.
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything." https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
Now this is a useful read! Thanks for digging it up. I feel better about Snyder and wondering why he did himself such a disservice presenting himself differently recently.
I think it's scary to admit that it's time to go, that the place you loved is fading. Being heroic doesn't always mean standing firm while danger grows beneath your feet. Sometimes it means doing the scary thing, finding somewhere better.. and letting others know it's an option.
And keep writing books saying we should be prepared to sacrifice all for freedom?? (Rule #20, On Tyranny) while running away yourself. He really should keep quiet rather than showing off. Not a good look. Hypocritical.
Not leaving. Working for Democrats, registering voters, going to protests, town halls, writing and calling my GOP US Senator who is swing vote. Encouraging other people to get active. Supporting a friend starting a new Dem club, being an Election Worker at my precinct. Local conventions.
It's sort of important to remember that the world outside of the usa still exists and still gets screwed over by what the usa decides to do. Snyder attempts to alleviate some of that.
Do you know anything about the academic job market in the US and Canada? It is a privilege to be able to pack up your family and continue your career with no loss by moving to another country.
If it really is as bad as they think, they gotta right to run as far as they can. Stay and resist too, that's a valid, admirable choice.
But going and warning is fine too. Then again, if things really get that bad... I don't think Canada's very safe.
They state specifically that prior autocratic regimes have been effectively countered by opponents rallying resistance beyond the reach of the targeted regime. The choice is flee or be silenced. This way their voices remain loud and clear.
I exist because my grandparents fled Nazi-occupied Poland in the middle of the night. If they’d stayed behind they would have been incinerated along with the other six million.
That’s kind of a funny thing to say in America, where there are about 13 million people who are not rich or in an elite profession who’ve come here looking for a better life and who the Republicans want to exterminate.
I’m not sure why Americans can’t do the reverse to escape a very bad situation.
Yeah, it's famously easy and cheap to move anywhere, let alone a new country, removed from all support. Do you think immigrants to the States are doing it on like $3000? C'mon
You have confused immigration with asylum, as have many in this thread. It is starting to seem like people are making this “mistake” on purpose. No idea what those purposes are.
I mean a persecuted person in a third world country can manage to travel thousands of miles to get to America but Americans can’t travel hundreds of miles to Canada?
This is a terrible situation. Like the one in the 1930s in Germany. There are not good options. Staying might equal death. Be real.
I can easily travel hundreds of miles to Canada, but Canada does not want mere mortals like me. Guess I could visit, check out Banff or something and... yeah they'll probably be stopping tourist travel from the US soon for just the reasons mentioned in this thread...
Explain why people on a fucking raft to Britain can do it with no money, while persecuted, while starving, yet your pampered ass can't. What do they have that you don't aside from will?
Generally, but I saw in cbc yesterday that they really need skilled workers in construction and other trades… so there may also be a hand-brain drain also.
It’s actually pretty easy to move to the netherlands. I’m disabled, broke as fuck, have no degrees of any kind and make furry art for a living. It’s a thing you can do
also living in the Netherlands while not being rich etc. (stay-at-home parent supported by my illustrator spouse). It’s easy enough for Americans who can freelance anyway.
Yeah, Sweden is a tough hill to climb. Seems the best options for immigrating these days is ancestry or student visa converted to permanent residency. Hard as hell otherwise for the most desirable countries. I'm looking into Albania and Mexico, perhaps the Philippines, as I've only got soft skills.
Stop pretending it is easy to legally immigrate to Canada. For all its complaints toward the US, it is far harder to immigrate to Canada. Which has been criticized for discriminating against certain people. The country fully supports the "people are a drain on us" conservative mantra.
What’s heroic - losing your nation, right to due process? Or having the courage to leave, to start over as millions have? The rule of law in the US is almost a dead letter. It’s highly likely political violence will resolve this as in 1776, 1861.
"I want people to suffer like me" is a hell of a statement. Neo lib purity testing during these goddamn times, of all the moments to fucking do it, NOW you're doing it? Purity testing????
Are you comparing Timothy Snyder, who had moved to Toronto the summer before the election, and who has written definitive books on the threat of fascism, to Grok??
"canary dying in a coal mine" is the kind of embarrassing shit a malfunctioning chatbot would say about Snyder and Stanley doing a resist fascism press tour about them moving to Canada
This country has spent the last half century spinning its wheels in fascist shit while Democrats tell everyone hope is just around the corner.
At some point you have to have some respect for yourself, which is genuinely heroic in American culture.
I mean...I am looking at jobs in Canada also, so I get it?
We can't even get the different factions of the left to work together here on Bluesky, we are a long way off from fixing this, and I'm not young anymore.
Intellectuals like them tend to be of the first groups sent to concentration camps BTW. Racial/ sexual minorities first, then the intellectuals who have knowledge that threaten the regime. You're advocating for them to stay & be thrown into a camp rather than helping to fight from a safe distance
Nope, I am saying he repeated exhorted others to make sacrifices he himself is now unwilling to make. (See Rule 20 in On Tyranny)
Its called hypocrisy.
Comments
The only way out of a criminal fascist regime is rebellion. That's the only way out now.
“Do not evacuate in advance,” or something.
Who cares about a couple of rich airport book authors taking a temporary position in Toronto? This is a PR campaign.
This is utter nonsense. If you believe the country's being overwhelmed by Fascism, or Christian Dominionism, or White Nationalism.- or all three!!! - your assessment of
When your country turns its back on you, you only get stupid points for ignoring. Everyone's different. Some lack the means to flee, but that's not a
Emigration from other countries happens routinely because of domestic threats. It's bizarre to believe this country's an exception. People who believe they're threatened and take steps to save themselves and their families don't deserve opprobrium.
It’s their final fucking warning.
Yet, most people keep sleep walking into fascism. Good night and goid luck, America.
They are #resisting in real time.
The canaries in the coal mine ain’t singing, they’re gasping for air…anybody paying attention?
By canaries, I mean anyone who isn’t addicted to orange orangutan guy.
At this point, I think he's justified in washing his hands.
I'll continue to defend Prof. Snyder, because I fundamentally don't view it as his job to save America from its idiocy. And he really did sacrifice a heroic amount of personal time trying to warn us.
☮️
I'd just add that Tim Snyder ALSO really did sweat trying to educate the teflon-brained US electorate, and I'd send him on a vacay if I could.
Sure they are privileged doing it, but as a scientist I would do everything to just record this from the outside
#History
That something meant as a wake up call should be framed as betrayal is jingoism run amok.
So you make a splash of it. You tell everyone why you're jumping ship. You hope it'll snap them out of their lethargy. Instead, they turn on you.
The FoxNews disinformation machine really seems to have hoodwinked mainstream America into gaslighting itself to self-destruction. (And PP would do the same here).
It reveals how you think tho…or don’t.
However, moving to another country is more complicated than people realize.
They are advertising they are safe while the rest of us are in danger.
This may already be a subtopic in fascism studies, but the way in which knowledge of it does not necessarily protect against it seems urgently relevant.
It's a lot harder to spring for new labs for scientists.
#TrumpIsDestroyingAmerica
It's kinda our thing.🇨🇦
I am glad they are leaving, everyone should leave the United States of Donald Trump, actually
They won’t fix any of you all, you need a mirror
But of course, first they come for the trans kids and the immigrants.
They wil
Cause historically… that hasn’t worked so well.
He certainly warned us and urged people to oppose fascism and tyranny. That’s not the same as explicitly calling on the to lay down lives
Canada will gain from having them there.
One of our MPs has suggested that we could welcome American scientific talent in the UK.
Just shut up and leave. Why write about it?
A lot of smart people don't seem concerned at all, yet.
So, I think it's helpful.
In other areas, the threat to most academics is not arrest or violence, but a lot may have their careers destroyed.
Avoiding arrest is a way to continue fighting.
Give us one fucking reason to have hope that US is going to pull out of the fascist death spiral were in. I’ll stay and fight but have no illusions; I don’t begrudge those who think it’s time to head for the emergency exits. The problem
The question is if you think the regime will soon start coming for white people, too.
Those with “get-up-and-go” are getting up and leaving. Brain drain sucks.
#GeneralStrike or violence. Americans are too selfish and stupid for a strike.
P.S. Didn't even have to study it to see a fascist takeover happening
There's a lot of people who should leave if they can and want to, because by the time it becomes intolerable it will be too late.
Rumeysa Ozturk wasn’t “discriminatory barred” from attending graduate school, she was simply snatched off the street and shipped across the country.
Trump and his minions are bad enough; bringing the Nazi takeover of Germany into the discussion just weakens the argument against them
Seems you're implying nothing will ever get that bad. How do you know this?
I’m not saying they’re wrong to leave. They can pursue their career elsewhere.
But they also seem to crave attention.
Rule 21: Leave as soon as you can and get paid to lecture the plebes you left behind how they aren’t doing it right. Write a book called “Told You So” and never worry about anything ever again.
But they are among the fraction of a percent of academics in this country that have the luxury to be able to ring up U of Toronto and ask if there are any endowed professorships available
If you think, though, that the only voices worthy of preservation are star academics like Snyder, that's problematic at best
I'm pointing out a structural inequality in academia, where one very small cluster of scholars can pick up a phone and arrange a target of opportunity hire for themselves, while almost everyone else cannot. In those circumstances, an op-ed like this chafes a bit.
But I guess you haven't heard of it either.
I dunno. It doesn’t seem outlandish for someone who studies fascism to want to publicly say “yeah the state of this place is so fucked that I’m getting outta here. Y’all think on that.”
We should be putting all these voices on planes and getting them the hell out of here before they are silenced permanently.
That said, I don't like the NYT piece and the framing of this as some sort of exterritorial opposition camp.
Hannah Arendt barely got out of Europe alive because she misjudged the moment things became too dangerous to stay and fight.
It’s almost always followed by the professional writer saying they are also not in danger.
Well I’m sorry, but Timothy Snyder in particular isn’t a standard issue pundit.
Authoritarian regimes attack prominent academics.
Timothy Snyder
1:54 am, Apr 04, 2025
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything."
https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
Gifted https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/14/opinion/yale-canada-fascism.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Hk8.aaSv.f8rV7BzsfZYj&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
They’ll be much more use to the cause in Canada than they will in prison, or even just at home, terrified.
Isn’t that a value that you share?
Emigrating is not obeying in advance. You know better than this.
Timothy Snyder
1:54 am, Apr 04, 2025
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything."
https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
"As much as I disagree with President Trump, he did win the election and we academics have lost public trust. I think universities should look for ways to work with this administration, rather than 'resist' or whatever the heck."
It's more along the lines of "fuck this shit, I'm not waiting for the hammer to fall."
True, it's not "heroic" or brave in any sense. But it is his way of defying Trump, in a sense.
This kind of inauthentic gasping at some supposed impropriety is extremely harmful.
But they shouldn't even *think* about lecturing the rest of us (who stay!) about the dangers of incipient authoritarianism here
This feels like setting oneself on fire to try to draw attention.
It’s notable enough that editors could have written in a format and positioned on A1. Or at least a companion piece on A1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oomvEjJAI44
https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22506105/
Are you aware of the media attention around the brain drain from Nazi Germany in the 1930’s?
seems like a worthwhile message to me. just slinking off, as an public expert voice on the rise of fascism, would even seem kinda off to me
oh wait... maybe studying fascism informed their decisions.
Even he’s gotta take a side.”
Bob Dylan
Or was it designed to be sharing that some people are having to wave a white flag and admit they think things are hopeless and are leaving?
They aren't heroic. They aren't courageous. And they are tacitly admitting that, while sharing their view.
And that was the wise thing to do: it resulted in postmodernism and critical theory. And old guys aren't the best partisan fighters, after all.
https://newrepublic.com/article/193379/yale-professors-canada-higher-education-law-firms-fight-trump
I also personally believe that the ppl who've been calling out warnings and getting ignored are not required to martyr themselves just to silence their critics. And a professor being present isn't going to greatly affect our resistance.
Instead you have 19 people out of 20 staying home for the protests taking place every 4-5 business weeks.
"Albert Einstein, J. Robert Oppenheimer, John von Neumann, Kurt Gödel, and lots of other intellectual titans were just happy to have somewhere — anywhere — safe to live and work."
The USA's loss is our gain, in this regard. If you stay, then you'll keep the company you chose, I suppose.
I’m unfollowing & muting everyone with this arsehole take.
I don't have the means to leave the country either, so I understand wanting to be hyper critical, but they are trying to stay safe.
Good for them and their family
It’s not a flex. It’s a statement of their reality. Ignore it at your peril.
Take a seat.
Timothy Snyder
1:54 am, Apr 04, 2025
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything."
https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
Didn’t they study what happened to Czechoslovakia, Poland, and France?
They also know we're bracing to whatever degree we can for that fight to come.
Also, if you haven’t noticed fringe groups such as an Alberta separatist movement have sprouted up after Trump wanted your country. It’s clear the U.S. will stage an info war to try and cause civil unrest.
There's this persistent myth that estadounidense can simply waltz across the border to Canada (or get on a plane to anywhere else) and be welcomed with open arms. It does not work that way.
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/february-2020/squalid-optimist/
Signed,
A Jewish person
Signed,
Fuck Off
Yes, they are abandoning the US.
But these guys are scholars, lecturers, teachers, not social warriors.
Can they do more from the outside looking in?
Are they even safe on a college campus? Their families and homes from right wing attacks?
I’m not sure TBH.
But you go on helping the fascists promote their right wing populism by branding academics as “elitists”.
https://www.education.govt.nz/news/overseas-teacher-recruitment
But people need to do what's best and feasible for themselves and if that's leaving, there's no sense being a dick about it.
And NZ is smart to recruit now.
There's no point in being pissed off about it.
Also NZ is recruiting teachers and offering to pay up to 10k moving expenses.
This sends a message of pessimism and doom, for sure--not at all a fighting stance. But I think it's intended to.
Worse?
Timothy Snyder
1:54 am, Apr 04, 2025
"I did not leave Yale because of anything Trump is doing; the chronology and the psychology are all wrong; I was not and am not fleeing anything."
https://yaledailynews.com?p=197983
His work with Ukrainian is a part of the same fight that America is now facing.
A lot of streams make a mighty river. Creating internal soledarty makes us all stronger.
The "luxury" of not voting comes at a steep price.
And how rich are they allowed to be before they lose permission to be afraid, anyway?
But going and warning is fine too. Then again, if things really get that bad... I don't think Canada's very safe.
These people don’t owe you jack shit.
I’m not sure why Americans can’t do the reverse to escape a very bad situation.
This is a terrible situation. Like the one in the 1930s in Germany. There are not good options. Staying might equal death. Be real.
...okay, I actually don't know about accountants, but the other two are true. lol
What’s wrong with admiring Snyder for his work?
At some point you have to have some respect for yourself, which is genuinely heroic in American culture.
We can't even get the different factions of the left to work together here on Bluesky, we are a long way off from fixing this, and I'm not young anymore.
Its called hypocrisy.