Yes. I would argue there have been dozens of such occasions in Trump-related litigation, but if it’s not issued here, just get rid of it, it has no meaning.
Until there are some actual consequences for the DOJ attorneys or their superiors, this shit will continue. After that the only options will become much more severe and will require action directly from the American people.
Not to mention that I think close to 50% of everything they assert in courts ought to result in Bar discipline. It certainly would have been a "fail" in law school legal writing class. (was just reading the transgender military ban order)
For the laymen: In a civil action, Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, titled "Signing Pleadings, Motions, and Other Papers; Representations to the Court; Sanctions," requires attorneys and unrepresented parties to certify that their filings are not frivolous, 1/have
I think Elon and Trump pretty much rendered that null and void when they posted the judges should be impeached and that this judge was not impartial specifically. Jeezus, Justice Roberts even came out of hiding to tell them to back off.
“Don’t they know if they just listen to me we will have even richer people like never before and the poor people will suffer like no one has ever done before because of Donald J. Trump and it will be a beautiful thing.” ~ what the felon wants to say out loud.
There’s “sanctionable”, and then there’s “what a federal judge will actually sanction”. Lot of things fall into the first category, but not the second, especially if the offending party is the government.
In my experience, a lawyer whose misconduct harms the opposing party is unlikely to be sanctioned compared to a lawyer whose misconduct defies the judge. This motion is a big middle finger to the court.
Also, reading between the lines, the information the government is refusing to provide is so damning that it would support severe sanctions and undermine their position in the lawsuit and they’ll do anything to avoid disclosing it to the judge.
They know they have lost at the District level and are playing to SCOTUS, specifically Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch and to a slightly lesser degree Kavanaugh. But it will not sit well with the other 5.
They don't seem to be doing a great job of ingratiating themselves to SCOTUS, in my opinion, lol.
But yeah this seems to be the play. Try and flail and whine enough to create the appearance that there's some sort of procedural grounds for a reversal by SCOTUS.
IF they're saying these people are gang members, it should be easy to show the court.
Unless they don't have any evidence. In which case they can disappear anyone. Even American citizens.
Not only do they not have the evidence, they've even had the front to argue - in effect - that the lack of evidence makes the people they've deported even more dangerous.
isn't the government the one who said the strength of the president's powers depended on the plane's location? how are they then gonna pretend to be pissed about the judge asking for the plane's location
trump DOJ plays a shell game with evidence in front of the Court then accused the Court of wasting the governments time, that is always trump's legal strategy = lie, deny, delay, obstruct, obfuscate.
The government’s not going to fire them—they’re saying exactly what Trump wants, which is to say, nothing substantive surrounded by a lot of aggressive bluster. Whether a litigant has defied a court order is never a “picayune” matter of “micromanagement.” /1
"How's my brief, boss?"
"You deleted the whole paragraph telling Boasberg to screw himself?"
"Yes, also I found the obscene doodles a bit much."
"You better have left in the thing about his mother, right?"
"..."
"RIGHT?!? Don't make me DOGE you."
Intentionally causing delays by refusal to answer questions and delaying further with red herrings by accusing the court of delaying and deflecting focus is the most on brand display by the Trump camp.
Wow there are some DOJ employees ( not ethical lawyers) that no longer want to work in the biz by the looks. Be very wary, you don't know who your next boss is. Eyes of the world are watching and this behaviour may just end those childhood dreams you had.
⚖️ is never blind!
Just tell the judge "mind your own fucking business" it'll make the briefs easier for the clerks to read.
Some poor 28 year-old with honors from a T10 law school had to review this and take it seriously at 2 AM and then bicycle home to his/her crappy apartment.
A lot of lawyers, it seems to me, don't fully appreciate that (a) they can tell their boss/supervisor "no", and (b) that they have a professional obligation to say "no" if their boss/supervisor is telling them to do something unethical. And (c) that frivolous arguments are unethical .
It is if you have no intention of obeying the court’s orders. The brief is a political document intended to support their public positions, not one intended to win any arguments on the merits.
But they've been thumbing their nose at the court for days. At some point Boasberg will either have to get serious or roll over. It's looking like 'roll over'...and Roberts' statement yesterday was about as tepid and unconvincing as it could be.
(ianal) but imo it reads more like an argument you might hear from one of the smart aleck Republicans on CNN or primetime Fox hosts... and less like a legal filing
When you staff the Justice Department with "your Roy Coens" you get this. Next up, they send Blanche over to torch the Judge's front lawn and dance around the fire naked. (Apologies to HST for the appropriation, but the shoe just fits.)
WOW. We can be appreciative this case is before such a competent, experienced Judge who’s already exhibited great judicial restraint in the face of defiance from a lawless administration.
Yup. Roast them. The only way to stop this crap is to crush the counsel stepping up to dust. Courts need to flex against this incursion into Article III. I pray reminding Article II that the Courts still matter isn't a lost cause.
Now ICE officers also know, it's illegal. Next time they, not just Trump breaks the law, start getting them also accountable. Action need to go beyond Trump, illegal activity is happening everywhere.
I'm annoyed by the way they cite Ludecke v Watkins to say the decision to deport an enemy alien is non-reviewable and neglect to admit the very next sentence says, "of course the courts can review if a person is actually -in- the class of people"
Not trying to be snarky here—the norms of courtroom sanctions have been far too yielding in this administration. Bad faith argument and winking evasion have been evident from the jump.
DOJ should be presumed a bad faith actor in any court they appear. And yes, these atttorneys should be sanctioned.
It is clear that the executive is engaged in a cover up. Likely was told by the DOJ that judge ordered to turn planes around, said no, and then told the attorneys to find some legal justification for it after the fact.
Also, I’m a big believer in Congress being the most in charge, forget coequal. All power is supposed to flow from them. But they seem to give away more and more as time passes.
And yet they’ve become the weakest. Committees and polarization have left them so dysfunctional they almost can’t help but delegate part of their powers to the executive
What we’re seeing now is that on steroids tho, with Republicans wholesale abdication of their constitutional duties and authority
A lot of the delegation makes sense, tbh. Legislatures aren't actually a great body to be running much. Thing is that when the legislature does act, it needs to be decisive.
Yup. If they want to delegate, they need to create and move existing agencies under their direct control instead of passing the buck off to the Executive Branch and allowing for further concentration of power under a single individual.
Yeah. I’ve never liked the imperial presidency but it’s clear it’s a broken model. I’m starting to think we should move to a parliament with a PM and President to separate head of government from head of state.
If you’re gonna delegate like that, it only makes sense if the legislature chooses the executive who gets delegated to—i.e. a parliamentary system. The author and the implementer of laws having opposing goals is an inherently dysfunctional system
I have preferred parliamentary systems my entire life. Rather wish I'd have been wrong about the uselessness of checks and balances at this precise juncture though.
the veto points built into Congress by the Constitution make this functionally impossible, which is why we need to retvrn to parliamentarianism (in the English Civil War sense)
no kings, no Lords! all power flows from the Commons, voice of the people!
Unfortunately, the structure of our government doesn't enforce that coequal status.
All the power of the Executive Branch is concentrated in one person, that branch controls the people with the guns, and the other branches rely on them to enforce their own powers.
I’m thinking they were told to file an appeal to delay the truth being told, so they did. No one said it has to make sense. At this point, maybe they want to be sanctioned or disbarred. They can claim it’s not their fault and keep their jobs while being unable to complete their assigned duties.
it’s as if they set up a mic in their office while they were shit-talking the judge and just routed the audio through speech 2 text and published straight to the docket
like one of those imaginary arguments with the opposition you stage in your head while you pretend you’ll absolutely devastate them with your killer jabs
I don’t know what Rule 11 is but if it means they submitted a snarky brief that misrepresents the truth and disrespects the judge, I agree wholeheartedly
This judge needs to have a hearing on compliance, and be very frank with the lawyers putting their names on this that they have a duty to comply with court rules no matter what their orders
yes, and when they do, the court can punish the lie, and that's called a "sanction." "Sanctionable" is what lawyers call lies told in court papers or court appearances.
Plus, wasn't it the government that made the timing and location of flights an issue, by claiming that the order didn't apply because the planes were already in X location at Y time?
Of course they are. Trump has been taken to court for bad business practices and everything else under the sun over 4,000 times! He isn’t the least bit worried.
The DoJ lawyers don't seem to get that THEY created a need for this info beyond the case itself. The judge is reviewing information to determine sanctions against the attorneys... He's not adjudicating the case itself right now because the appeals court has already picked up.
As I have emphasized multiple times, THESE FLIGHTS WERE PUBLICLY TRACKED! They were private charter planes contracted out by ICE like nearly every other ICE Air flight! They were met in El Salvador by a huge camera crew and a media spectacle!
Nothing about this was secret! This is such nonsense.
I hope the judge throws the book at them for this if they try it. Yes, there’s still question of enforcement but it’s a completely spurious argument and must be identified as such.
El Salvador has agreed to take as many prisoners as the US sends as long as the US pays for their incarceration. What a gravy train. $$$$. Disappear many in jail but still claim the room and board $. ALL autocratic countries should get in on this lucrative scam...at the US taxpayers expense
If these are private charter planes, would it be possible to get the information from the owners/operators of the planes? Seems like an easier route to the answers.
What's not public is the negotations with ElSal (when did they start, what do they get & what do we give), how/why they picked these ppl. to imprison, and are they really hard criminals, terrorists/enemy combatants, soldiers, gangbangers, etc.
Seems that what they really don't want to reveal is how they concluded these ppl are enemies/terrorists & suited for offshore imprisonment, as well as the "negotiations" with ElSalvador that took "months". DTJr. & Kim G. were in ElSal a few months prior to the election. Were they negotiating then?
That’s the whole point tho. Flaunt the fact directly in the face of the world that nobody can stop him now. His father loved that he was and encouraged him to be that way.
“At the time of Judge Boasberg’s verbal order, one of the planes was over Mexico; a second was over the Gulf of Mexico…; and a third had not yet taken off.” … Later, “three planes landed at the Soto Cano air base [in Honduras], …After several hours, the planes took off for El Salvador.”
I'm sorry, you are required to use the new, official nomenclature "Gulf of America" anytime you refer to that particular body of water, lest your post be flagged for insubordination and your access to this platform removed. 🤣
Is a judge allowed to say “this information is public and I already have the info right here” or do they just have to keep deferring judgement, chastising them, and threatening sanction unless the DOJ agrees to give them the info?
Oh I’m not saying these flights aren’t what they say they are. I’m saying that while I have no facts to support this contention, their conduct is consistent with there being other, additional flights or other removals that they don’t want to talk about.
Yeah, the questions being asked seem benign enough that I really can't see why they'd be putting up this big of a fight unless they *really really really* don't want to answer them because they did something very bad and/or as yet unknown (and also probably bad)
There’s certainly an appeal to that theory, but for my point of view, Occam’s Razor suggests that they have been ordered to pick a fight with the judge by the White House.
Right?! If they were so concerned about secrecy, they wouldn't have filmed it and bragged about it on social media. Their argument is insulting and provably false. I hope the judge brings the hammer down here.
Per Executive Order 13526, Classified National Security Information, Section 1.7 (Classification Prohibitions and Limitations) - info CANNOT be classified in order to
conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error!
That doesn't matter when you're living in an authoritarian country formally known as the USA. The Gestapo is wiping their asses with laws and the Constitution.
#resist
Can the Plaintiffs respond to this pleading by filing publicly available information of the flights from FlightAware? The judge requested the DOJ filing to assess the Government’s compliance with his order (or lack thereof). This public information is relevant to the judge’s assessment of whether 1/
DOJ’s claim to privileged information is a scheme to frustrate the judge’s ability to examine the lawfulness of the Government’s conduct with respect to the TRO. Also, how can DOJ claim that disclosure of the flight information damages national security when the information is public already? 2/
It means sanctioning the lawyers for presenting frivolous arguments the lawyers know are not valid.
And these arguments are *absurd.* Note in particular how they simply refuse to engage whatsoever with what he's said about his own powers to enforce his court order.
From another non-lawyer: why should I have any confidence in light of the past ~10 years of jurisprudence that these people will face any sanction whatsoever?
Oh yeah. I just am dismayed by every lawyer I read or know being like “this is crazy! It’s crazy!!” and thinking like isn’t the backstop for this whole thing that lawyers who are totally flouting the rules will have professional and/or criminal consequences?
For example: I think it is outright sanctionable for the government to demand that Judge Boasberg personally assure them he will not share information that is provided to him in camera (in his chambers) and ex parte (away from the plaintiffs).
And again, THIS INFORMATION IS LARGELY PUBLIC ALREADY.
But Aaron...CATASTROPHIC!!! The thing they did that was publicly tracked and turned into a propaganda film and posted online for all to see...MUST remain secret! 🤦♀️
Of course, if international law had any teeth left, these folks who are willfully arguing for the human rights violations should also be subjected to trials at the Hague.
My guess is that the judge just sits in his chambers and waits for them to show up. If they don't, I'd sanction them if I were him - and one of the sanctions would be to say that the court has no choice but to take judicial notice of the FlightAware data and hold DOJ to it for purposes of contempt.
They have to make this about national security and terrorist threats so they can expand later to include removal of citizens and anyone the trump regime designates a ‘threat’. Political enemies, rabble rousers, LGBTQ, feminists… the list is endless. https://bsky.app/profile/monkeyes2.bsky.social/post/3lkmaau65ks2t
And dems twiddling thumbs. Why can't they launch a major ad campaign to educate ppl on every media platform available? Seriously?! Tell me why crickets and echo Chambers is their only response?
Perhaps they may consider axing the promotional media blitz being conducted by the administration’s Homan, Noem, Leavitt, Miller, Bondi, Musk, & Trump if they wish to bolster their argument. 🙄
Out of context I’d say R11 sanctions would be a stretch for this admittedly-bogus filing. In context DOJ has been working hard to goad judges around the country into sanctions, contempt findings, or both.
The chutzpah is the issue. They are puffed up with their sense of invulnerability and absolute power. They act as if they were given the immunity SCOTUS conferred this summer on Trump to help him evade trial for Alan 6 and natsec docs. It's all part and parcel. The feel they reap what scotus sowed.
The President can't be prosecuted for anything he orders according to SCOTUS, has unlimited pardon powers, and controls the law enforcement agencies. The DOJ being independent is a matter of tradition and policy, not of structure or law.
Air traffic safety regulation and law including international treaty law demand transponders that result in public logs and public records. These are charter aircraft and agile military transponder rules do not apply. Recall crash over Potomac, helicopter and commercial.
All the more absurd considering that the autocrat of El Salvador is actively tweeting out information about the flights & their aftermath; if this were critical national security information, that would represent a massive failure of operational security
Also the metadata of the images El Salvador released to newswires has some funny timestamps. Some before planes landed. (Unless timestamps were off due to camera setting error,)
Comments
Does potential sanctions apply to both the DOJ lawyers-leaders and the top plantiff?
Bondi? Rubio? The Fas Bastard?
But yeah this seems to be the play. Try and flail and whine enough to create the appearance that there's some sort of procedural grounds for a reversal by SCOTUS.
Unless they don't have any evidence. In which case they can disappear anyone. Even American citizens.
"You deleted the whole paragraph telling Boasberg to screw himself?"
"Yes, also I found the obscene doodles a bit much."
"You better have left in the thing about his mother, right?"
"..."
"RIGHT?!? Don't make me DOGE you."
we got us some high-IQ dictionary-owning brain geniuses over here
⚖️ is never blind!
I mean...should you be lying to the judge like that?
Some poor 28 year-old with honors from a T10 law school had to review this and take it seriously at 2 AM and then bicycle home to his/her crappy apartment.
Didn't work on Jerry Springer....let's see how it works here:)
These the same people who spent months investigating Benghazi?
DOJ should be presumed a bad faith actor in any court they appear. And yes, these atttorneys should be sanctioned.
I mean, if we didn’t have enough evidence of that already.
What we’re seeing now is that on steroids tho, with Republicans wholesale abdication of their constitutional duties and authority
no kings, no Lords! all power flows from the Commons, voice of the people!
All the power of the Executive Branch is concentrated in one person, that branch controls the people with the guns, and the other branches rely on them to enforce their own powers.
It's a gentleman's agreement.
All of the lawyers who signed this should be held in contempt, fined and jailed.
Then begin disbarment proceedings for all of them. Traitorous bastards.
Nothing about this was secret! This is such nonsense.
https://adamisacson.com/timeline-of-what-appears-to-be-defiance-of-a-judicial-order-applying-the-alien-enemies-act-to-venezuelans-sent-to-el-salvadors-prisons-without-due-process/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0PVHVq308dn30gA49IIlx7t_I0lJ4qVaOVC69nbl-UsZarDuCqox4r4IU_aem_ZCGBj_s6Hgznf06NlEXvgA
Such a nice word to use instead of
Fucking Bat Shit Crazy!
It isn’t like we’ve never used extraordinary rendition in the past. And this administration isn’t particularly creative.
They have already tried to remove the most qualified judge from this case for similar reasons. I don’t know if we can rule out subterfuge.
conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error!
#resist
https://ticotimes.net/2014/10/06/the-exposure-of-eugene-hasenfus
And these arguments are *absurd.* Note in particular how they simply refuse to engage whatsoever with what he's said about his own powers to enforce his court order.
And again, THIS INFORMATION IS LARGELY PUBLIC ALREADY.
- When the planes left
- When they entered international airspace
- When they landed
- When people were taken off the plane
The chutzpah is unreal. What an ABSURD claim.
The President can't be prosecuted for anything he orders according to SCOTUS, has unlimited pardon powers, and controls the law enforcement agencies. The DOJ being independent is a matter of tradition and policy, not of structure or law.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8296BAy/
this administration is hilariously incompotent